Red Stakes & Pinehurst Format Questions

1. Ball flies over the water, hits the inside of a red stake (located on the bank between the water and the green with no red lines marking PA) and goes back into the water. Where can the player drop? (Assume that if the ball is deemed to have crossed the PA, which I don't think it has, that the player could legally drop on the green side of the PA)

2. In Pinehurst Format, can you switch balls on the green. i.e. Assume that you use P1s tee shot, P2 hits it near the green, you select this ball to play shot 3, P1 hits it on the green. Can P2 substitute their ball for P1s ball to hit the putt (shot 4)? (For the record, we did not do this, but on the back 9 I noticed the other team do this)

3. What is the correct team HC of P1 (5.3 index playing 69.9/129 Club Tees) and P2 (8.2 index playing 67.9/119 Silver Tees)? Our league says "In accordance with the USGA Handicap System (rule 3.5), we will be adjusting player’s handicaps when they choose to play from the Silver Tees or as the event dictates." For this event, it says "• Lower Handicap- 60% used , Higher Handicap- 40% used

• Combine two handicaps for team’s course handicap"

1) As the ball hit the inside of the red stake it did not cross that side's edge, the point where the ball last crossed the edge was on the tee side, and that's the reference for the drop area.

2)My understanding of Pinehurst is that both player's tee shots are used, though each second shot is played by the other player, then a single ball is selected and continued to be used. You said "use P1s tee shot" which seems at odds with my beginning statement.

3) After the two team's course handicaps are determined, you subtract the two tee's ratings (69.9 - 67.9 =2) and either add two handicap strokes to the players playing from the tougher tees or subtract two strokes from the other team's handicaps -- it doesn't matter which you do as long as it's consistent throughout the tournament.

sure glad you answered this one :-)

2) No, you cannot switch balls, you must play the ball that was played onto the green.

> @Sawgrass said:

> 1) As the ball hit the inside of the red stake it did not cross that side's edge, the point where the ball last crossed the edge was on the tee side, and that's the reference for the drop area.

> 2)My understanding of Pinehurst is that both player's tee shots are used, though each second shot is played by the other player, then a single ball is selected and continued to be used. You said "use P1s tee shot" which seems at odds with my beginning statement.

> 3) After the two team's course handicaps are determined, you subtract the two tee's ratings (69.9 - 67.9 =2) and either add two handicap strokes to the players playing from the tougher tees or subtract two strokes from the other team's handicaps -- it doesn't matter which you do as long as it's consistent throughout the tournament.

Thanks...2. You are correct about how we played PH format...I left out the part where P1 hit P2's tee shot before picking up that ball.

So 3 follow-up questions:

1. Can you link to the rule/decision/interpretation/definition supporting dropping on the tee side of the hazard. I thought the same as SG and told that team they needed to drop on the tee side. After dumping into the bunker, they were upset with my advice and I told them they could drop/play a 2nd ball greenside and ask which one should count after we finish. Did this and although there was agreement that the red stake was inside the PA, ruling was that the ball had crossed the PA, so they could drop greenside.

2. What would you do if you noticed a team substituting a ball on hole 10 (knowing they had probably done this multiple times already in a low stakes Men's League comp)?

3. @Sawgrass do you mean two players (not teams)? With rounding, would the final team HC be 8 if they use the go up method? (I thought we used the go down method which is why I didn't understand why we got 8.

A few things here:

1. the ruling provided that the ball that struck the red stake had crossed the red penalty area was very likely incorrect. The stake is inside the penalty area, and the penalty area edge is determined by the outside (general area side) of the stake.

2. the player was not entitled to play a second ball after making a stroke at the ball dropped on the tee side of the penalty area. Playing a second ball can only be done "when the doubt arises" and before a stroke has been made at the original ball. In this case presented, the score with the original ball must count.

> @SkiSchoolPro said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > 1) As the ball hit the inside of the red stake it did not cross that side's edge, the point where the ball last crossed the edge was on the tee side, and that's the reference for the drop area.

> > 2)My understanding of Pinehurst is that both player's tee shots are used, though each second shot is played by the other player, then a single ball is selected and continued to be used. You said "use P1s tee shot" which seems at odds with my beginning statement.

> > 3) After the two team's course handicaps are determined, you subtract the two tee's ratings (69.9 - 67.9 =2) and either add two handicap strokes to the players playing from the tougher tees or subtract two strokes from the other team's handicaps -- it doesn't matter which you do as long as it's consistent throughout the tournament.

>

> Thanks...2. You are correct about how we played PH format...I left out the part where P1 hit P2's tee shot before picking up that ball.

>

> So 3 follow-up questions:

> 1. Can you link to the rule/decision/interpretation/definition supporting dropping on the tee side of the hazard. I thought the same as SG and told that team they needed to drop on the tee side. After dumping into the bunker, they were upset with my advice and I told them they could drop/play a 2nd ball greenside and ask which one should count after we finish. Did this and although there was agreement that the red stake was inside the PA, ruling was that the ball had crossed the PA, so they could drop greenside.

> 2. What would you do if you noticed a team substituting a ball on hole 10 (knowing they had probably done this multiple times already in a low stakes Men's League comp)?

> 3. @Sawgrass do you mean two players (not teams)? With rounding, would the final team HC be 8 if they use the go up method? (I thought we used the go down method which is why I didn't understand why we got 8.

1)Regarding the penalty area, 17.1d (2) and (3) say in part: " in a relief area that is based on a reference line going straight back from the hole through the estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area." And from the definition of Penalty Area we see: "The edge of a penalty area should be defined by stakes, lines or physical features: Stakes: When defined by stakes, the edge of the penalty area is defined by the line between the outside points of the stakes at ground level, and the stakes are inside the penalty area."

2) the penalty for such an illegal substitution and then striking the ball is two strokes in stroke play, via 6.3b(3). In match play, if you saw it happen and didn't say anything at the time, you can't go back and make a claim -- but on the last occasion you can either warn the player or if he's already struck the ball, claim the hole. Those are the rules, what someone would actually do may be different.

3) I may have missunderstood the handicap question, I assumed that both partners were playing from the same tees, and the other team was playing from a different tee. Is that true?

From 9-3c(iii) of the handicap manual, for a side playing from different tees:

(iii) Foursome PineHurst, or Chapman Competitions Using Different Tees or Men and Women Using Same Tees

In Foursome Pinehurst, or Chapman competitions using different tees or men and women from the same tees, players use half the difference in USGA Course Rating between sets of tees.

Example: A, a man, and B, a woman, are partners in a foursome competition against C, a man, and D, a woman. The men play the white tees with a USGA Course Rating of 71.2, and the women play the red tees with a USGA Course Rating of 73.6. The difference in Ratings is 2.4. After the Course Handicap of each team is determined, one-half of the difference between Ratings (1 stroke) is added to the Course Handicap of each team with the resulting figure rounded off to the nearest whole number (.5 or more is rounded upward). If A and B are both men, the procedure applies only to side C and D (a man and a woman).

Thanks @Sawgrass

RE handicap, yes two different tees within same team. I completely understand the different tee procedure you describe. What I am uncertain about is when you are suppose to round off. Do you take 60/40 of each player's course HC, round, then combine or do you combine, then round? (This is why I gave index, CR & slope for each player, so I could see final results and work back...I wrongly assumed the CR adjust was made to individual players, then carried through to the team, but you say differently)

SSP, I trust my post #8 holds the answer as to when you round. Anyway, "that's all I got."

> @Sawgrass said:

> SSP, I trust my post #8 holds the answer as to when you round. Anyway, "that's all I got."

Thanks...maybe I'm not reading that post right. Let's forget about the different tee adjustment. What is the course handicap of a team where player A has a 6 CH and player B has a 9 CH? Is it 7 ((60% x 6) + (40% x 9) = 7.2 which rounds to 7) or 8 (3.6 for each rounds to 4 for each = 8 combined)

I think the details of this example addresses your latest question, the answer being 8:

Example: Side A-B is comprised of Player A with a Course Handicap of 5 and Player B with a Course Handicap of 10. Player A (5 x 60% = 3) + Player B (10 x 40% = 4) = 7 strokes for side A-B (3 + 4 = 7). Side C-D is comprised of Player C with a Course Handicap of 14 and Player D with a Course Handicap of 17. Player C (14 x 60% = 8.4 rounded to 8) + Player D (17 x 40% = 6.8 rounded to 7) = 15.

Side A-B plays at scratch and Side C-D receives one stroke per hole on the first 8 allocated handicap-stroke holes.

Tip of the cap to @Sawgrass! Good to talk to you again! I have a Chapman/Pinehurst Format question... I've looked all over the internet and cannot find the answer to my question. How is this format played on a Par 3? I'm assuming both players hit a shot off the tee. But what happens when you get to the green? Assuming both players hit their tee shot onto the green, do both players get a chance to putt their teammates tee ball at the hole? Or do you have to just the best one and it alternated from there?

Both players continue with their partner's ball for the second shot. Being on the green is irrelevant.

Nice to hear from you, Chilli. (Chilli and I had the great fortune of playing together in the 2013 Farmers Insurance Pro-Am as guests of TaylorMade/Adidas by virtue of a GolfWRX contest that I still think about very, very frequently.)