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Strength and Golf

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  • ZitlowZitlow Members  615WRX Points: 217Posts: 615 Golden Tee
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    On -, @Sleeky_D said:

    On -, @Zitlow said:

    Quickness > Strength. How do you think little guys like Rickie Fowler and Justin Thomas hit the ball as far as guys like Koepka and DJ? In addition to quickness you need mobility.

    I would agree with this reasoning. While increasing strength will certainly help, building quickness and speed in transition should help even more.

    You're absolutely correct, a quick burst of speed in transition is the key. Inertia and momentum take over from there.

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  • JRSJRS Members  988WRX Points: 110Posts: 988 Golden Tee
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    On -, @oukeith said:

    Lots of threads on this subject lately.

    Serious question: how is power in baseball different from power in the golf swing? Baseball power hitters are usually monsters...

    a baseball bat is 3 times heavier than a driver.
    your golf/baseball "engine" produces a force that is used to accelerate a load (club/bat) but it also has a maximum speed it can't exceed no matter how light the load. a wiry kid might have great "no-load" speed but stick a bat in his hand and he will slow down a lot. at the other end, you have a strongman build who will swing a bat like it's nothing but his no-load speed is too slow to swing it as fast as a top baseball player.

    Posted:
  • MoshjeanMoshjean Members  237WRX Points: 107Posts: 237 Fairways
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    I’ve always been curious about this myself.

    Henrik Stenson has said that “hitting the proper shots your better off with pressure than with speed, obviously a combination would be nice”

    Clip starts at 3:30

    Pete Cowen is big proponent of turning and loading (he calls it the spiral staircase), and using the ground as stable base. Hard to disagree with him considering the results of his players.

    But how does a little guy like Rickie hit it long? Speed alone?
    Does Stenson really just pressure the ball like a champagne cork?
    Probably somewhere in the middle, or closer to one depending on body type/swing.
    Either way it goes to show there are a lot of ways to hit a golf ball.

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  • oukeithoukeith MichiganMembers  177WRX Points: 61Handicap: Mid-capperPosts: 177 Fairways
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    On -, @JRS said:

    On -, @oukeith said:

    Lots of threads on this subject lately.

    Serious question: how is power in baseball different from power in the golf swing? Baseball power hitters are usually monsters...

    a baseball bat is 3 times heavier than a driver.
    your golf/baseball "engine" produces a force that is used to accelerate a load (club/bat) but it also has a maximum speed it can't exceed no matter how light the load. a wiry kid might have great "no-load" speed but stick a bat in his hand and he will slow down a lot. at the other end, you have a strongman build who will swing a bat like it's nothing but his no-load speed is too slow to swing it as fast as a top baseball player.

    Yeah, you also have a baseball coming in at velocity....

    Posted:
  • wmblake2000wmblake2000 Los AngelesMembers  6026WRX Points: 768Posts: 6,026 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Lakers2020 said:

    I've never hit the ball that far. I hit a 34* 7 iron about 155 yards and I'll hit a good drive about 250-260 including roll. My swing is technically sound - I hit the center of the clubface on shots. I have a very smooth rhythm and swing a lighter shaft. Here is my question:
    If two golfers have an identical swing but one if fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?

    I’m not even as long as you ... but I just got consistently longer. From 210 ish off the tee to 230-240, and from 135 7 iron to 145. This at age 67.

    100% technique.

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  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members  17195WRX Points: 1,431Posts: 17,195 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Moshjean said:

    I’ve always been curious about this myself.

    Henrik Stenson has said that “hitting the proper shots your better off with pressure than with speed, obviously a combination would be nice”

    Clip starts at 3:30

    Pete Cowen is big proponent of turning and loading (he calls it the spiral staircase), and using the ground as stable base. Hard to disagree with him considering the results of his players.

    But how does a little guy like Rickie hit it long? Speed alone?
    Does Stenson really just pressure the ball like a champagne cork?
    Probably somewhere in the middle, or closer to one depending on body type/swing.
    Either way it goes to show there are a lot of ways to hit a golf ball.

    With the same impact alignments, yes speed is all that matters. Two players delivering the same loft with the same 3D path with the same speed will hit it the same distance.

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  • MoshjeanMoshjean Members  237WRX Points: 107Posts: 237 Fairways
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    On -, @iteachgolf said:

    On -, @Moshjean said:

    I’ve always been curious about this myself.

    Henrik Stenson has said that “hitting the proper shots your better off with pressure than with speed, obviously a combination would be nice”

    Clip starts at 3:30

    Pete Cowen is big proponent of turning and loading (he calls it the spiral staircase), and using the ground as stable base. Hard to disagree with him considering the results of his players.

    But how does a little guy like Rickie hit it long? Speed alone?
    Does Stenson really just pressure the ball like a champagne cork?
    Probably somewhere in the middle, or closer to one depending on body type/swing.
    Either way it goes to show there are a lot of ways to hit a golf ball.

    With the same impact alignments, yes speed is all that matters. Two players delivering the same loft with the same 3D path with the same speed will hit it the same distance.

    I figure at the tour level they are all pretty much world beaters that hit the center of the face with optimal impact alignments at a high rate.
    In your opinion, do amateurs tend to improve more from speeding up or improving impact alignments/condtions? I imagine there is a strong correlation between the two.

    Posted:
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  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members  17195WRX Points: 1,431Posts: 17,195 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Moshjean said:

    On -, @iteachgolf said:

    On -, @Moshjean said:

    I’ve always been curious about this myself.

    Henrik Stenson has said that “hitting the proper shots your better off with pressure than with speed, obviously a combination would be nice”

    Clip starts at 3:30

    Pete Cowen is big proponent of turning and loading (he calls it the spiral staircase), and using the ground as stable base. Hard to disagree with him considering the results of his players.

    But how does a little guy like Rickie hit it long? Speed alone?
    Does Stenson really just pressure the ball like a champagne cork?
    Probably somewhere in the middle, or closer to one depending on body type/swing.
    Either way it goes to show there are a lot of ways to hit a golf ball.

    With the same impact alignments, yes speed is all that matters. Two players delivering the same loft with the same 3D path with the same speed will hit it the same distance.

    I figure at the tour level they are all pretty much world beaters that hit the center of the face with optimal impact alignments at a high rate.
    In your opinion, do amateurs tend to improve more from speeding up or improving impact alignments/condtions? I imagine there is a strong correlation between the two.

    The things that help you hit it more solid and improve mechanics generally also increase speed

    Posted:
  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19050WRX Points: 1,723Posts: 19,050 Titanium Tees
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    I don’t know why ams have a such a hard time believing this to the point they refuse to believe it.
    Stay away from Dorian

    Posted:
  • son_of_ketoson_of_keto Members  25WRX Points: 15Posts: 25 Bunkers
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    But golf in its essence is swinging a weight into the ground at or in front of you, at the end of a stick, and refining technique to adapt for the sport. Sure, there are folks who are maxed out as they can be, and more who have all they want, but the vast vast majority would benefit from more speed, stability and endurance if they lifted.

    More and more science is pointing to the benefits of lifting as we age. Lifting (deadlifts), standing (squats), plus better bone density and flexibility- heck those would make you more stable on your feet and stronger across and up and down your back in particular but core in general, sounds like a couple things could help most people’s game.

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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19050WRX Points: 1,723Posts: 19,050 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @son_of_keto said:

    But golf in its essence is swinging a weight into the ground at or in front of you, at the end of a stick, and refining technique to adapt for the sport. Sure, there are folks who are maxed out as they can be, and more who have all they want, but the vast vast majority would benefit from more speed, stability and endurance if they lifted.

    More and more science is pointing to the benefits of lifting as we age. Lifting (deadlifts), standing (squats), plus better bone density and flexibility- heck those would make you more stable on your feet and stronger across and up and down your back in particular but core in general, sounds like a couple things could help most people’s game.

    Few if any are arguing against that...but when you have given thousands of lessons combined with and without fitness and strength training, the vast majority of speed and distance increases come from swinging better and more efficiently. If you want to argue that being stronger and more fit helps that....of course that’s true.

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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers  5880WRX Points: 1,450Posts: 5,880 Titanium Tees
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    Monte speaks truth, and I'll guarantee he's not against strength and fitness training. The vast majority of players will notice more significant CHS and distance gains from learning to swing better. Swing technique, sequencing, and quality/efficiency of strike are key.

    Agree that strength training is great too though. Especially as we age. It wont necessarily make you faster, but it can help delay and minimize the gradual diminishing of physical performance that all of us eventually experience with age...especially over 50. Weights/resistance training done properly also helps with mobility and injury prevention.

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  • Lakers2020Lakers2020 Southern, CAMembers  51WRX Points: 24Handicap: 5-7Posts: 51 Bunkers
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    This was the question asked -_ If two golfers have an identical swing but one if fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?_

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  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers  3436WRX Points: 897Handicap: 2.9Posts: 3,436 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Lakers2020 said:

    This was the question asked -_ If two golfers have an identical swing but one if fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?_

    Playing that game, no. Can't have an identical swing if one swings faster than the other.

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  • Oett11Oett11 Columbia MoMembers  145WRX Points: 43Handicap: 6.3Posts: 145 Fairways
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    I know my problem lies thinking I need to swing harder, instead of swinging faster. I envy the guys with the easy swing and the ball explodes off the face.

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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers  5880WRX Points: 1,450Posts: 5,880 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Lakers2020 said:

    This was the question asked -_ If two golfers have an identical swing but one if fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?_

    Been answered already..stronger doesnt necessarily equal faster. The FASTER player will hit the ball farther.

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  • Lakers2020Lakers2020 Southern, CAMembers  51WRX Points: 24Handicap: 5-7Posts: 51 Bunkers
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    On -, @dpb5031 said:

    On -, @Lakers2020 said:

    This was the question asked -_ If two golfers have an identical swing but one if fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?_

    Been answered already..stronger doesnt necessarily equal faster. The FASTER player will hit the ball farther.

    What's the best way to get a faster swing IYO?

    Posted:
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers  5880WRX Points: 1,450Posts: 5,880 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Lakers2020 said:

    On -, @dpb5031 said:

    On -, @Lakers2020 said:

    This was the question asked -_ If two golfers have an identical swing but one if fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?_

    Been answered already..stronger doesnt necessarily equal faster. The FASTER player will hit the ball farther.

    What's the best way to get a faster swing IYO?

    Learn better technique, improve sequencing, hit it in the center with efficient launch dynamics, and train for speed (Superspeed type training protocol)

    There have been studies linking vertical leaping ability, a sideways medicine ball toss, and strength on a pec-dec machine, but they're just correlative from what I remember and I cant find the source.

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  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16884WRX Points: 1,034Handicap: 4-5Posts: 16,884 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Sep 3, 2019 #50

    There are a lot of factors, actual size isn't as much of an issue as the strength and type of muscles you have. I am 70 years old a buddy is 50 years old. I hit the ball just as far as he does, about 250ish. He's over 6' and not much muscle mass. I am 5'10, with a muscled body and strong fast-twitch muscles. As a cyclist and football player, my strength was sprinting. My buddy is a smooth swinger, I hit the ball hard using fast-twitch power. Look up golf swing and fast and slow-twitch muscles.

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  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16884WRX Points: 1,034Handicap: 4-5Posts: 16,884 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Krt22 said:

    On -, @oukeith said:

    Lots of threads on this subject lately.

    Serious question: how is power in baseball different from power in the golf swing? Baseball power hitters are usually monsters...

    >A baseball bat doesnt have a club face you need to square up.
    True, it's not a comparable flat surface. However, if a baseball player doesn't square the minimal bat surface with the ball, it's a foul, pulled or pushed. Squaring up the minimal bat surface with the ball at impact is important to be a consistent hitter.

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  • ZitlowZitlow Members  615WRX Points: 217Posts: 615 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Sep 3, 2019 #52

    In addition to quickness you also need precision to hit the sweet spot (center percussion) of the golf ball with the sweet spot of the club. You'll get a foul ball with a glancing blow.

    Posted:
    Post edited by Zitlow on
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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers  9388WRX Points: 3,023Posts: 9,388 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    On -, @Krt22 said:

    On -, @oukeith said:

    Lots of threads on this subject lately.

    Serious question: how is power in baseball different from power in the golf swing? Baseball power hitters are usually monsters...

    >A baseball bat doesnt have a club face you need to square up.
    True, it's not a comparable flat surface. However, if a baseball player doesn't square the minimal bat surface with the ball, it's a foul, pulled or pushed. Squaring up the minimal bat surface with the ball at impact is important to be a consistent hitter.

    And in baseball a "consistent" hitter puts one in play less than 1/3 of the time while the width of field of play vs the distance they hit it is a completely different order of magnitude compared to that of golf.

    Posted:
  • RRstein82RRstein82 Members  241WRX Points: 46Handicap: 7.6Posts: 241 Fairways
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    On -, @wmblake2000 said:

    On -, @Lakers2020 said:

    I've never hit the ball that far. I hit a 34* 7 iron about 155 yards and I'll hit a good drive about 250-260 including roll. My swing is technically sound - I hit the center of the clubface on shots. I have a very smooth rhythm and swing a lighter shaft. Here is my question:
    If two golfers have an identical swing but one if fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?

    I’m not even as long as you ... but I just got consistently longer. From 210 ish off the tee to 230-240, and from 135 7 iron to 145. This at age 67.

    100% technique.

    No, it's not. It's a combination of technique, flexibility/mobility and strength. My technique could certainly use improvement, but off the tee I'm 50 yards longer than you and my 7 iron is 30 yards longer than you. I'm also 30 years younger than you, so most likely a lot more flexible and significantly stronger (I could be wrong, but it's a safe assumption giving the age discrepancy). Are there 60+ year old guys who are longer than me based solely on technique? I'm sure they are, but that's because their technique is exponentially better than mine. If I woke up tomorrow and had the same skill as a 60+ year old guy who's longer than me today, I bet good money he wouldn't be longer than me anymore. So of course technique plays a major roll, but it's not 100%. Don't discount strength and fitness.

    Posted:
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers  5880WRX Points: 1,450Posts: 5,880 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @RRstein82 said:

    On -, @wmblake2000 said:

    On -, @Lakers2020 said:

    I've never hit the ball that far. I hit a 34* 7 iron about 155 yards and I'll hit a good drive about 250-260 including roll. My swing is technically sound - I hit the center of the clubface on shots. I have a very smooth rhythm and swing a lighter shaft. Here is my question:
    If two golfers have an identical swing but one if fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?

    I’m not even as long as you ... but I just got consistently longer. From 210 ish off the tee to 230-240, and from 135 7 iron to 145. This at age 67.

    100% technique.

    No, it's not. It's a combination of technique, flexibility/mobility and strength. My technique could certainly use improvement, but off the tee I'm 50 yards longer than you and my 7 iron is 30 yards longer than you. I'm also 30 years younger than you, so most likely a lot more flexible and significantly stronger (I could be wrong, but it's a safe assumption giving the age discrepancy). Are there 60+ year old guys who are longer than me based solely on technique? I'm sure they are, but that's because their technique is exponentially better than mine. If I woke up tomorrow and had the same skill as a 60+ year old guy who's longer than me today, I bet good money he wouldn't be longer than me anymore. So of course technique plays a major roll, but it's not 100%. Don't discount strength and fitness.

    Not exactly the right comparison. At 51 I'm significantly stronger in the gym than my 17 year old nephew. I weigh 200 lbs, and he weighs 155. I'm also a much better/more skilled golfer than he is. Still, he can effortlessly swing the club a good 10-12 mph faster than me "best for best." Tons of skinny little 14 & 15 year old golfers who can smash a driver prodigious distances yet wouldn't be very impressive moving weights.

    Again, speed and strength aren't the same thing. I'd bet we lose speed with age more profoundly than strength.

    Posted:
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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19050WRX Points: 1,723Posts: 19,050 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @dpb5031 said:

    On -, @RRstein82 said:

    On -, @wmblake2000 said:

    On -, @Lakers2020 said:

    I've never hit the ball that far. I hit a 34* 7 iron about 155 yards and I'll hit a good drive about 250-260 including roll. My swing is technically sound - I hit the center of the clubface on shots. I have a very smooth rhythm and swing a lighter shaft. Here is my question:
    If two golfers have an identical swing but one if fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?

    I’m not even as long as you ... but I just got consistently longer. From 210 ish off the tee to 230-240, and from 135 7 iron to 145. This at age 67.

    100% technique.

    No, it's not. It's a combination of technique, flexibility/mobility and strength. My technique could certainly use improvement, but off the tee I'm 50 yards longer than you and my 7 iron is 30 yards longer than you. I'm also 30 years younger than you, so most likely a lot more flexible and significantly stronger (I could be wrong, but it's a safe assumption giving the age discrepancy). Are there 60+ year old guys who are longer than me based solely on technique? I'm sure they are, but that's because their technique is exponentially better than mine. If I woke up tomorrow and had the same skill as a 60+ year old guy who's longer than me today, I bet good money he wouldn't be longer than me anymore. So of course technique plays a major roll, but it's not 100%. Don't discount strength and fitness.

    Not exactly the right comparison. At 51 I'm significantly stronger in the gym than my 17 year old nephew. I weigh 200 lbs, and he weighs 155. I'm also a much better/more skilled golfer than he is. Still, he can effortlessly swing the club a good 10-12 mph faster than me "best for best." Tons of skinny little 14 & 15 year old golfers who can smash a driver prodigious distances yet wouldn't be very impressive moving weights.

    Again, speed and strength aren't the same thing. I'd bet we lose speed with age more profoundly than strength.

    I’m stronger and just as flexible as I was when I was 25. I swing better as well. However I’ve lost speed as I am now a sloth.

    Posted:
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers  5880WRX Points: 1,450Posts: 5,880 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @MonteScheinblum said:

    On -, @dpb5031 said:

    On -, @RRstein82 said:

    On -, @wmblake2000 said:

    On -, @Lakers2020 said:

    I've never hit the ball that far. I hit a 34* 7 iron about 155 yards and I'll hit a good drive about 250-260 including roll. My swing is technically sound - I hit the center of the clubface on shots. I have a very smooth rhythm and swing a lighter shaft. Here is my question:
    If two golfers have an identical swing but one if fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?

    I’m not even as long as you ... but I just got consistently longer. From 210 ish off the tee to 230-240, and from 135 7 iron to 145. This at age 67.

    100% technique.

    No, it's not. It's a combination of technique, flexibility/mobility and strength. My technique could certainly use improvement, but off the tee I'm 50 yards longer than you and my 7 iron is 30 yards longer than you. I'm also 30 years younger than you, so most likely a lot more flexible and significantly stronger (I could be wrong, but it's a safe assumption giving the age discrepancy). Are there 60+ year old guys who are longer than me based solely on technique? I'm sure they are, but that's because their technique is exponentially better than mine. If I woke up tomorrow and had the same skill as a 60+ year old guy who's longer than me today, I bet good money he wouldn't be longer than me anymore. So of course technique plays a major roll, but it's not 100%. Don't discount strength and fitness.

    Not exactly the right comparison. At 51 I'm significantly stronger in the gym than my 17 year old nephew. I weigh 200 lbs, and he weighs 155. I'm also a much better/more skilled golfer than he is. Still, he can effortlessly swing the club a good 10-12 mph faster than me "best for best." Tons of skinny little 14 & 15 year old golfers who can smash a driver prodigious distances yet wouldn't be very impressive moving weights.

    Again, speed and strength aren't the same thing. I'd bet we lose speed with age more profoundly than strength.

    I’m stronger and just as flexible as I was when I was 25. I swing better as well. However I’ve lost speed as I am now a sloth.

    Ha...I think you and I are about the same age. I'd certainly love to swing it as "slothy" as you...lol! 😁

    Curious, how much speed have you lost comparing same length driver now to when you were 25?

    Posted:
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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  19050WRX Points: 1,723Posts: 19,050 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Sep 5, 2019 #58

    Probably 10 mph, only because my swing is better. My max out is probably 20 less

    Posted:
  • JD3JD3 Members  5075WRX Points: 411Posts: 5,075 Titanium Tees
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    I know a guy who benches 400 lbs (seriously), more than 2x what I'd do. Yet I drive it further and I think our swings are comparable. I was wondering really how does someone with such strength even swing off the rack clubs....for us mortals must feel like a plastic straw. I wonder if he should play exceptionally heavy clubs so a) he could feel them, and b) the added mass would deliver more distance.

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  • jobinjobin Members  158WRX Points: 30Posts: 158 Fairways
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    Ben Hogan said 'your hips can't move fast enough'. Implying of course that moving the hips faster will increase the clubhead speed.
    And Martin Hall, a very well known golf instructor of TV golf channel, said that 'the quicker the difference between going back and then forward with the hips will result in faster clubhead speed' (paraphrase from a TV comment).

    And we can test this last idea with a damp towel. Try to 'crack' the end of the towel and create a snapping sound. This can only can happen if the difference between the up/down motion, supplied by you, is distinct and fast. The least difference (shorter time frame) between the 2 directions, the faster the towel end can move and make the sound.
    Even if you pull the towel down with superhuman speed but with no differential in direction, no sound.

    This i believe is what even the skinny, puny pros, and ams, can do---that i do not. They move their hips going back, as i do, but their change in direction and speed of that change results in a much faster clubhead speed.

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  • wmblake2000wmblake2000 Los AngelesMembers  6026WRX Points: 768Posts: 6,026 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @RRstein82 said:

    On -, @wmblake2000 said:

    On -, @Lakers2020 said:

    I've never hit the ball that far. I hit a 34* 7 iron about 155 yards and I'll hit a good drive about 250-260 including roll. My swing is technically sound - I hit the center of the clubface on shots. I have a very smooth rhythm and swing a lighter shaft. Here is my question:
    If two golfers have an identical swing but one if fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?

    I’m not even as long as you ... but I just got consistently longer. From 210 ish off the tee to 230-240, and from 135 7 iron to 145. This at age 67.

    100% technique.

    No, it's not. It's a combination of technique, flexibility/mobility and strength. My technique could certainly use improvement, but off the tee I'm 50 yards longer than you and my 7 iron is 30 yards longer than you. I'm also 30 years younger than you, so most likely a lot more flexible and significantly stronger (I could be wrong, but it's a safe assumption giving the age discrepancy). Are there 60+ year old guys who are longer than me based solely on technique? I'm sure they are, but that's because their technique is exponentially better than mine. If I woke up tomorrow and had the same skill as a 60+ year old guy who's longer than me today, I bet good money he wouldn't be longer than me anymore. So of course technique plays a major roll, but it's not 100%. Don't discount strength and fitness.

    I'm not arguing that older, less flexible, less strong guys can hit it farther than younger, more flexible and stronger guys. And I generally go to the gym, stretch, etc - but not lately when my distance improved. My '100% technique' was about my recent improvement. That was clearly, no-doubt-about-it from better technique (since I haven't been in the gym any during this period) and my swing has coalesced after a lot of work on it.)

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