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Strength and Golf

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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @puresurfr said:
    Ok, here are my results from my recent experiment into gaining strength. Im in my 50s and decided to hit weights again to try to get longer. Its been about 10 months now and my strength levels are up across the board

    Bench 235 (315) *405
    Deadlift 240 (365) *500
    Squat 255 (345) *450
    Shoulder Press 140 (205) *285

    The numbers on the left are my starting numbers and the numbers on my right are my improved numbers and the asterisk is where I hope to get to in the next 18 months. In addition I have been doing stuff such as Battle ropes, Super Speed, plyometric box jumps and I do a bit of running and rowing and dynamic and static stretches. I plan to do Clubbells and Kettlebells next

    • I do many more exercises in the gym but these exercises are considered the hallmark of powerlifting. The one exercise which I feel helps the most is Torso Twists on the Landmine machine.

    Im glad I got back into the gym, I feel better and definitely gained muscle and lost some fat. However it was really disappointing that I didn't gain much length, I would say im perhaps 2mph faster in swing speed and maybe 5 yards of carry.

    Pretty aggressive program and impressive weight for being in your 50s! I'd be too stiff & sore to even try to swing a golf club if I trained that hard...lol! 😨Your experience supports that there are diminishing returns when talking about strength as it relates to CHS.

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  • SirFuegoSirFuego Members Posts: 214 ✭✭✭

    @surefire said:
    People are comparing lower power but high force gym lifts against a golf swing. A more valid comparison would be some form of explosive gym movement, as the golf swing is an explosive effort.
    I would be fascinated to see comparisons of vertical jump against distance, or if we must stick to weight-based exercises, snatch v distance - here we have a problem though, the population that is technically proficient in both snatch and swinging a golf club is not going to be huge. I expect there would be much more correlation here than with benching or deadlifting.

    I'm sure you can find exceptions, but there is generally a correlation between jumping ability and distance.
    http://www.mytpi.com/articles/swing/what_we_can_learn_about_distance_from_long_drive_competitors

    Par4Success collects data from their clients comparing certain exercises to distance. Interestingly, some of the correlations between distance and exercises vary based on age.
    http://www.mytpi.com/articles/fitness/how_powerful_are_you_compared_to_golfers_your_age

  • surefiresurefire Members Posts: 225 ✭✭✭

    @SirFuego said:

    @surefire said:
    People are comparing lower power but high force gym lifts against a golf swing. A more valid comparison would be some form of explosive gym movement, as the golf swing is an explosive effort.
    I would be fascinated to see comparisons of vertical jump against distance, or if we must stick to weight-based exercises, snatch v distance - here we have a problem though, the population that is technically proficient in both snatch and swinging a golf club is not going to be huge. I expect there would be much more correlation here than with benching or deadlifting.

    I'm sure you can find exceptions, but there is generally a correlation between jumping ability and distance.
    http://www.mytpi.com/articles/swing/what_we_can_learn_about_distance_from_long_drive_competitors

    Par4Success collects data from their clients comparing certain exercises to distance. Interestingly, some of the correlations between distance and exercises vary based on age.
    http://www.mytpi.com/articles/fitness/how_powerful_are_you_compared_to_golfers_your_age

    Exactly what I was suggesting, and if you could find a big enough sample of people technically skilled in snatching and golf, I think you'd find a similar correlation.

    The average person (and particularly golfers) is so behind in sports science, they tend only associate strength training with basic low power output lifts. The elite world of strength and conditioning has moved a long way past that in the last 20 years.

  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Members Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    TPI has been tracking data for years based on its three main tests for clubhead speed (vertical jump, sit-up med ball throw, and seated med ball chest pass). They argue they can predict fairly accurately how far somebody can drive the golf ball simply based on their performance in these tests. If I remember the pga tour player average is something like 20 inches, 20 feet, and 20 feet in the tests.

    I set up a vert jump gauge in my basement and sourced a 4.5kg med ball so that I could mimic the tests.

  • HonestPlayerHonestPlayer Members Posts: 264 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 2:12pm #96

    There are too many variables at play and honestly think the most important thing is the mind and knowing your limits.

    If I play in hulk mode aka I don't care about anything but blasting the golf ball, I don't give a **** about my body etc - I can bomb a Gap wedge (50 degrees) 170 yards setting up for a high draw with a good hang time too, the ball can stop almost on point if it lands on a green that isn't concrete. I think a 5 iron 240 yards with this mentality. My angle of attack is super aggressive and super steep - I use a 2pc ball with this mindset.

    If I play in chilled mode aka I don't care about anything but chilling out, enjoying the day, the round and life then I use a split grip. Hit a 5 iron about 150 yards and a wedge I tend to struggle not to shank at that point so I play the wedge near the green only. 7i goes about 110 when I think like this and I can play flop shots comfortably from anywhere near the green. I struggle to carry the golf ball at all with this mindset and take no divots, just picking the ball. I use a Prov1 or Prov1x with this mindset

    Mindset is everything in sport and golf (and life). I am big into philosophy and psychology and to be honest it's a never ending rabbit hole I wish I never entered that I'm now bailing out on. Most older and shorter players don't hit the ball very far because they really just can't be bothered. If you get them pissed enough with a gun to their head chatting **** to them then I bet they'd smoke the ball miles further than they want to in an every day round of golf.

    Most birdies in a round in 2019 - 3
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  • puresurfrpuresurfr Members Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 3:31pm #97

    The strength component is definitely a vital component.....its easy to get old man strength by lifting weights slowly, Power however is dangerous to train for at my age, although i have been lifting for close to a year, im slowly sneaking up to the power exercises. The box jumps with a 180 twist require explosion and the power clean can be very challenging when the bar is loaded with as much weight as you can handle. In benching and deadlift i go lighter and practice exploding out of the hole ; I try to accelerate as fast as i can against a weighed load. To be fair, i am still exploring the strength component and at some time i will have to address sequencing and proper application of whatever force i can generate and then there will be overspeed training.

    • This is more of an old man exploration into what is still possible, as many of you know, it takes much longer to recover as u age and golf suffers when you are stiff and sore. If this was 100% for golf, i would definitely adjust my training, it is not ideal for golf, doing those HITT circuits and explosive moves would be much more helpful. However my end goal is to look like a athlete instead of a senior golfer.
  • puresurfrpuresurfr Members Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I also should mention that for older athletes, be careful of how hard you are pushing it in the weight room. If golf is your main enjoyment, don't try to get too strong. A old chassis can only take so much before it blows.

  • oukeithoukeith MichiganMembers Posts: 173 ✭✭✭

    @puresurfr said:
    Ok, here are my results from my recent experiment into gaining strength. Im in my 50s and decided to hit weights again to try to get longer. Its been about 10 months now and my strength levels are up across the board

    Bench 235 (315) *405
    Deadlift 240 (365) *500
    Squat 255 (345) *450
    Shoulder Press 140 (205) *285

    The numbers on the left are my starting numbers and the numbers on my right are my improved numbers and the asterisk is where I hope to get to in the next 18 months. In addition I have been doing stuff such as Battle ropes, Super Speed, plyometric box jumps and I do a bit of running and rowing and dynamic and static stretches. I plan to do Clubbells and Kettlebells next

    • I do many more exercises in the gym but these exercises are considered the hallmark of powerlifting. The one exercise which I feel helps the most is Torso Twists on the Landmine machine.

    Im glad I got back into the gym, I feel better and definitely gained muscle and lost some fat. However it was really disappointing that I didn't gain much length, I would say im perhaps 2mph faster in swing speed and maybe 5 yards of carry.

    How many sets and reps are those numbers for?

  • talfredsontalfredson Moville, IowaMembers Posts: 29 ✭✭

    Decided to jump in on this thread. I do lots of lunges and lower body lifts that focus on 1 leg (1 leg RD, pistol squat). I also work a lot on shoulders and back. I rarely do any tricep/bicep work. I do 6 lifts 4 days a week.

    Program goes as follows:
    1. Lower body (lunges, goblet squats, RDL's)
    2. Push exercise (usually 1 arm exercises
    3. Pull exercise (usually 1 arm row variation)
    4. Olympic lift w/ DB (1 arm snatch to lunge, DB swing, DB snatches, clean-press)
    5. push exercise (landmine lift)
    6. pull exercise (landmine lift)

    I usually do about 3 sets and in between each set I do about :20 of cardio 2 days a week. On the other 2 days I mix in a yoga pose in between each set and hold for :15. Will sometimes throw in some core stability exercises in to help with lower back strengthening.

    I don't do any weight that distributes any pressure on my spine, I have a damaged disc in my lower back that 2 years ago gave me horrible sciatica nerve pain at 31 years old. Been working on a lot of core strengthening lifts and don't bear weight on my spine. I've noticed the lower body exercises that focus on 1 leg really help with my balance and explosion. I hit my driver about 310 consistently and can ramp it up to 320 if necessary and I feel I'm in control of my swing thanks to strong core, legs, and shoulders. I use strictly dumbbells and barbells. I use resistance bands for a lot of the shoulder stuff to get some good isometric work in.

  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Members Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 7:20pm #101

    @talfredson said:
    Decided to jump in on this thread. I do lots of lunges and lower body lifts that focus on 1 leg (1 leg RD, pistol squat). I also work a lot on shoulders and back. I rarely do any tricep/bicep work. I do 6 lifts 4 days a week.

    Program goes as follows:
    1. Lower body (lunges, goblet squats, RDL's)
    2. Push exercise (usually 1 arm exercises
    3. Pull exercise (usually 1 arm row variation)
    4. Olympic lift w/ DB (1 arm snatch to lunge, DB swing, DB snatches, clean-press)
    5. push exercise (landmine lift)
    6. pull exercise (landmine lift)

    I usually do about 3 sets and in between each set I do about :20 of cardio 2 days a week. On the other 2 days I mix in a yoga pose in between each set and hold for :15. Will sometimes throw in some core stability exercises in to help with lower back strengthening.

    I don't do any weight that distributes any pressure on my spine, I have a damaged disc in my lower back that 2 years ago gave me horrible sciatica nerve pain at 31 years old. Been working on a lot of core strengthening lifts and don't bear weight on my spine. I've noticed the lower body exercises that focus on 1 leg really help with my balance and explosion. I hit my driver about 310 consistently and can ramp it up to 320 if necessary and I feel I'm in control of my swing thanks to strong core, legs, and shoulders. I use strictly dumbbells and barbells. I use resistance bands for a lot of the shoulder stuff to get some good isometric work in.

    Man, I love your approach: functional, balance, explosive moves, no hero stuff. Having sufferend previous disc herniations myself it makes so much sense...

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @PorscheFan said:

    @puresurfr said:
    Ok, here are my results from my recent experiment into gaining strength. Im in my 50s and decided to hit weights again to try to get longer. Its been about 10 months now and my strength levels are up across the board

    Bench 235 (315) *405
    Deadlift 240 (365) *500
    Squat 255 (345) *450
    Shoulder Press 140 (205) *285

    The numbers on the left are my starting numbers and the numbers on my right are my improved numbers and the asterisk is where I hope to get to in the next 18 months. In addition I have been doing stuff such as Battle ropes, Super Speed, plyometric box jumps and I do a bit of running and rowing and dynamic and static stretches. I plan to do Clubbells and Kettlebells next

    • I do many more exercises in the gym but these exercises are considered the hallmark of powerlifting. The one exercise which I feel helps the most is Torso Twists on the Landmine machine.

    Im glad I got back into the gym, I feel better and definitely gained muscle and lost some fat. However it was really disappointing that I didn't gain much length, I would say im perhaps 2mph faster in swing speed and maybe 5 yards of carry.

    That’s an incredible effort - congrats! It must be great to feel better overall.

    Don’t get discouraged re the relatively small increase in swing speed. There isn’t necessarily a significant correlation between the specific gains you made and swing speed, at least from what I’ve read. That doesn’t diminish what you achieved though.

    Squat and deadlift are covered in these threads a lot, however I believe Sasho’s studies conclude that the max vertical ground forces required by the faster swingers are roughly equal to the vertical force produced from running, which most everybody is physically capable of without a single squat. The need for 400lb squats is something I still don’t personally understand with respect to swing speed.

    @PorscheFan , you are 100% contradicting your previous statements.

    I've suggested that there are diminishing returns in terms of strength relative to CHS. You disagreed. Relative to the OP's question, I said stronger "does not necessarily = faster." You vehemently disagreed.
    I said a player need only be "strong enough" to support swinging a lighter object at high speeds. You further disagreed.

    Then (see above) YOU quote a Sasho study concluding that: "max vertical ground forces required by the faster swingers are roughly equal to the vertical force produced from running," versus a 400 lb. squat. You go on to say, "the need for 400lb squats is something I still don’t personally understand with respect to swing speed."

    So based on your own comments, the 400lb squat is obviously overkill in terms of helping to increase CHS, no? That's EXACTLY what I've consistently been saying in this thread. You just have to be "strong enough."
    Incremental increases in strength will not necessarily result in incremental increases in CHS.

    Strength is most certainly important, and improving strength is a good thing, but relative to the OP's original question, the stronger individual is not always going to be the faster individual.

    The poorly understood neurological component is the greater differentiator. A player just need be "strong enough" to support the speed being generated.

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  • puresurfrpuresurfr Members Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    i absolutely agree, the stronger individual is not always gonna be the faster individual......But the faster individual "may" get even faster if he gets stronger and more powerful.

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @puresurfr said:
    i absolutely agree, the stronger individual is not always gonna be the faster individual......But the faster individual "may" get even faster if he gets stronger and more powerful.

    This I agree with 100%!

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  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Members Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dpb5031 said:

    @PorscheFan , you are 100% contradicting your previous statements.

    I've suggested that there are diminishing returns in terms of strength relative to CHS. You disagreed. Relative to the OP's question, I said stronger "does not necessarily = faster." You vehemently disagreed.
    I said a player need only be "strong enough" to support swinging a lighter object at high speeds. You further disagreed.

    Then (see above) YOU quote a Sasho study concluding that: "max vertical ground forces required by the faster swingers are roughly equal to the vertical force produced from running," versus a 400 lb. squat. You go on to say, "the need for 400lb squats is something I still don’t personally understand with respect to swing speed."

    So based on your own comments, the 400lb squat is obviously overkill in terms of helping to increase CHS, no? That's EXACTLY what I've consistently been saying in this thread. You just have to be "strong enough."

    Dude, jump off the crazy train. Please! Zero contradiction! Zero!

    Go back to the exam question... If another player is relatively 'stronger'... It was not limited to stronger quads, stronger eyelids... stronger whatever... it was 'stronger'! Assuming 'in GENERAL'

    That means stronger everything, including stronger lats, glutes, intercostals, and all key muscles that power the golf swing... Plus all those that don't. All of them. And that person that's stonger overall will swing faster! That's it. That simple!

    You did not cleverly catch me in some sort of continuity trap. Sorry about that. There are muscles that matter significantly to the golf swing and those that matter less. Sasho's assumption is that the front leg force is mainly a counterbalance to the forces of the swing so that the player doesn't fall over. Those muscles only need to be able to apply the requisite force to counterbalance the swing... they do not 'power' the swing. Jumping does not produce swing speed. Nope. Just nope.

    Some muscles have a limited place in the golf swing. So, somebody bulking up their biceps and saying it had a limited effect on their swing speed does not prove diminishing returns. Same with someone doing 600lb squats. Same.

    Hopefully that helps you understand. If youneed me to clarify more I will. Till the cows come home if necessary. Anything to help you understand.

  • DaveLeeNCDaveLeeNC Pinehurst, NCMembers Posts: 5,325 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a totally uncontrolled experiment of one (two actually) that would hardly support a conclusion but is interesting, none the less.

    Back in the early to mid 1960's I played a lot of golf with a childhood friend (junior HS through HS timeframe for us). At the time my driving distance was probably just a smidge better than his, but not bigtime.

    We went our separate ways but now get together once per year and golf is part of the activities. At a high level we have lots of similarities.

    1) Both of our swings are technically a little better than back in the day, but nothing huge in either case. He is still too much of an arm swinger and I continue to be a bit too flippy. And so on.
    2) We are both in very good physical condition with no issues (other than just being old) that obviously affect our golf swings. He will be competing in the National Senior Clay Court Tennis Championships in October (singles). And on Labor Day (this week) I rode a timed 100 mile bike ride in 5 hours 11 minutes.

    But there is one BIG difference. Some work in the weight room has always been part of his normal stuff. Other than a couple years in the 1990's zero weight room work for me.

    He is a solid 20 yards longer than me these days.

    I just found that interesting in the context of this discussion.

    dave

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @PorscheFan said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @PorscheFan , you are 100% contradicting your previous statements.

    I've suggested that there are diminishing returns in terms of strength relative to CHS. You disagreed. Relative to the OP's question, I said stronger "does not necessarily = faster." You vehemently disagreed.
    I said a player need only be "strong enough" to support swinging a lighter object at high speeds. You further disagreed.

    Then (see above) YOU quote a Sasho study concluding that: "max vertical ground forces required by the faster swingers are roughly equal to the vertical force produced from running," versus a 400 lb. squat. You go on to say, "the need for 400lb squats is something I still don’t personally understand with respect to swing speed."

    So based on your own comments, the 400lb squat is obviously overkill in terms of helping to increase CHS, no? That's EXACTLY what I've consistently been saying in this thread. You just have to be "strong enough."

    Dude, jump off the crazy train. Please! Zero contradiction! Zero!

    Go back to the exam question... If another player is relatively 'stronger'... It was not limited to stronger quads, stronger eyelids... stronger whatever... it was 'stronger'! Assuming 'in GENERAL'

    That means stronger everything, including stronger lats, glutes, intercostals, and all key muscles that power the golf swing... Plus all those that don't. All of them. And that person that's stonger overall will swing faster! That's it. That simple!

    You did not cleverly catch me in some sort of continuity trap. Sorry about that. There are muscles that matter significantly to the golf swing and those that matter less. Sasho's assumption is that the front leg force is mainly a counterbalance to the forces of the swing so that the player doesn't fall over. Those muscles only need to be able to apply the requisite force to counterbalance the swing... they do not 'power' the swing. Jumping does not produce swing speed. Nope. Just nope.

    Some muscles have a limited place in the golf swing. So, somebody bulking up their biceps and saying it had a limited effect on their swing speed does not prove diminishing returns. Same with someone doing 600lb squats. Same.

    Hopefully that helps you understand. If youneed me to clarify more I will. Till the cows come home if necessary. Anything to help you understand.

    I appreciate your passion and have enjoyed the discussion, but still disagree with you...lol. It's all good, but IMO your logic is all over the place and some of the things you're stating dont support previous statements. You also haven't addressed some of the hypotheticals or real examples, some of which you brought to the table (i.e. Nelly Korda).

    My response to the OP's question was "the stronger player isnt necessarily going to be faster." Even with equal or better swing technique, I believe a player with the neurological ability to swing it fast, as long as he's "strong enough" to support the speed, will swing it faster than a stronger individual not possessing the same or better neurological wiring for speed. In other words, some people are just faster, even if they're not very strong.

    E.g.: This is why my skinny little 17 year old 22 HC nephew can swing a driver 10-15 mph faster than his 51 year old 0 HC uncle, who BTW, can out power the little whipper-snapper in the gym in just about any strength metric that you can come up with. The kid's got speed, but he's not very strong... yet! Lol

    Now. I suppose you're going to come up with some obscure definition of "strength?"

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  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members Posts: 4,336 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 11:41pm #108

    @dpb5031 said:

    @PorscheFan said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @PorscheFan , you are 100% contradicting your previous statements.

    I've suggested that there are diminishing returns in terms of strength relative to CHS. You disagreed. Relative to the OP's question, I said stronger "does not necessarily = faster." You vehemently disagreed.
    I said a player need only be "strong enough" to support swinging a lighter object at high speeds. You further disagreed.

    Then (see above) YOU quote a Sasho study concluding that: "max vertical ground forces required by the faster swingers are roughly equal to the vertical force produced from running," versus a 400 lb. squat. You go on to say, "the need for 400lb squats is something I still don’t personally understand with respect to swing speed."

    So based on your own comments, the 400lb squat is obviously overkill in terms of helping to increase CHS, no? That's EXACTLY what I've consistently been saying in this thread. You just have to be "strong enough."

    Dude, jump off the crazy train. Please! Zero contradiction! Zero!

    Go back to the exam question... If another player is relatively 'stronger'... It was not limited to stronger quads, stronger eyelids... stronger whatever... it was 'stronger'! Assuming 'in GENERAL'

    That means stronger everything, including stronger lats, glutes, intercostals, and all key muscles that power the golf swing... Plus all those that don't. All of them. And that person that's stonger overall will swing faster! That's it. That simple!

    You did not cleverly catch me in some sort of continuity trap. Sorry about that. There are muscles that matter significantly to the golf swing and those that matter less. Sasho's assumption is that the front leg force is mainly a counterbalance to the forces of the swing so that the player doesn't fall over. Those muscles only need to be able to apply the requisite force to counterbalance the swing... they do not 'power' the swing. Jumping does not produce swing speed. Nope. Just nope.

    Some muscles have a limited place in the golf swing. So, somebody bulking up their biceps and saying it had a limited effect on their swing speed does not prove diminishing returns. Same with someone doing 600lb squats. Same.

    Hopefully that helps you understand. If youneed me to clarify more I will. Till the cows come home if necessary. Anything to help you understand.

    I appreciate your passion and have enjoyed the discussion, but still disagree with you...lol. It's all good, but IMO your logic is all over the place and some of the things you're stating dont support previous statements. You also haven't addressed some of the hypotheticals or real examples, some of which you brought to the table (i.e. Nelly Korda).

    My response to the OP's question was "the stronger player isnt necessarily going to be faster." Even with equal or better swing technique, I believe a player with the neurological ability to swing it fast, as long as he's "strong enough" to support the speed, will swing it faster than a stronger individual not possessing the same or better neurological wiring for speed. In other words, some people are just faster, even if they're not very strong.

    E.g.: This is why my skinny little 17 year old 22 HC nephew can swing a driver 10-15 mph faster than his 51 year old 0 HC uncle, who BTW, can out power the little whipper-snapper in the gym in just about any strength metric that you can come up with. The kid's got speed, but he's not very strong... yet! Lol

    Now. I suppose you're going to come up with some obscure definition of "strength?"

    Sounds like me when I was 17. I hit the ball way further than all the grown men. I just can't get my muscles/body to fire like I could when i was young. Had nothing to do with strength. Was all about weight shift and being able to explode on the downswing. And it wasn't just me. Other guys my age we used to go to the local golf range and hit 34° 6 irons 200 yds. We used to hit range balls with wooden drivers into the trees at the end of the range. I can't come close to reaching those trees today with modern titanium drivers.

    I taught my cousin to play golf. He's taller, bigger, and stronger than me. I out-drove him every time. But he worked very hard on his swing and developed an excellent swing and then he started to out drive me. He didn't get any stronger. His mechanics improved. He moved to Florida and got into + territory.

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I believe most reasonably fit young adult males have more than enough strength to support 110+ driver swing speed. (Of course it'd require decent swing technique and sequencing). And if you sample a large group, some will simply be faster than others, even if they're not necessarily "stronger."

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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @DaveLeeNC said:
    Here is a totally uncontrolled experiment of one (two actually) that would hardly support a conclusion but is interesting, none the less.

    Back in the early to mid 1960's I played a lot of golf with a childhood friend (junior HS through HS timeframe for us). At the time my driving distance was probably just a smidge better than his, but not bigtime.

    We went our separate ways but now get together once per year and golf is part of the activities. At a high level we have lots of similarities.

    1) Both of our swings are technically a little better than back in the day, but nothing huge in either case. He is still too much of an arm swinger and I continue to be a bit too flippy. And so on.
    2) We are both in very good physical condition with no issues (other than just being old) that obviously affect our golf swings. He will be competing in the National Senior Clay Court Tennis Championships in October (singles). And on Labor Day (this week) I rode a timed 100 mile bike ride in 5 hours 11 minutes.

    But there is one BIG difference. Some work in the weight room has always been part of his normal stuff. Other than a couple years in the 1990's zero weight room work for me.

    He is a solid 20 yards longer than me these days.

    I just found that interesting in the context of this discussion.

    dave

    I think gym work is highly beneficial as we age to help maintain golf performance levels. Weight training helps with strength, power, muscular endurance, and mobility if done properly. Unless someone has significant deficiencies though, by itself it's probably not going to actually ADD much speed to your swing.

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  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Members Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dpb5031 said:
    IMO your logic is all over the place and some of the things you're stating dont support previous statements.

    You set em up and I'll knock em down. Not a single element of discontinuity. You let me know what parts and I'll explain exactly how you jumped to the wrong conclusion.

    You also haven't addressed some of the hypotheticals or real examples, some of which you brought to the table (i.e. Nelly Korda).

    I did. Here you go: Nelly Korda... An efficient swing and incredibly talented. She can't hit it as far as Rory (who also has an efficient swing and is incredibly talented) because of strength. Simple. The difference between the average driving differences between the LPGA and the PGA tours isn't talent (there's an abundance of that in both) - it's strength.

    some people are just faster, even if they're not very strong.

    Correct, but that's a TOTALLY different argument, which is something you just accused me of.
    There will be people that have MUCH faster swings than others based on better mechanics and greater neuromuscular efficiancy, but once again, that's NOT the scope of the equestion being asked. The scope of the question asked was 'all else being equal'. Of course there are people that are super fast but not very strong, but that's neuromuscular efficiency and swing efficiency... It in no way proves that strength doesn't move the needle... That's the logic equivalent of "There's a fountain in my yard and there are no elephants in my yard therefore I conclude that fountains keep elephants away".

    E.g.: This is why my skinny little 17 year old 22 HC nephew can swing a driver 10-15 mph faster than his 51 year old 0 HC uncle, who BTW, can out power the little whipper-snapper in the gym in just about any strength metric that you can come up with. The kid's got speed, but he's not very strong... yet! Lol

    Again, your nephew and uncle aren't the same person with the same swing efficiency. It's a totally different comparative argument with a completely different set of variables.
    My 7YO son does SuperSpeed. He hit a new high yesterday of 80MPH with green (his red is 70MPH). He is VERY fast relative to his strength and can probably swing faster than some males that are much stronger than him, but that's not the point. The point is that with the SAME efficiency and MORE strength he'd be faster still.

  • puresurfrpuresurfr Members Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok both you gentleman have made some very good and valid points and your arguments are quite strong. I have a background in this sort of stuff and I can't decide which way to lean. I have a masters in Physiology and you guys are way over my head. Haha of course ive been playing golf for 20 years and im still confused about that too. So far I have gotten stronger and also more powerful. I did not get shorter but im not that much longer. I think technique is my next step to trying to get a bit longer. I think everybody has weak links in their swing and some people will get longer by being stronger and some guys will get longer by having better technique. Since we are trying to improve our golf game, technique is vital and a little extra power that is controllable would be helpful too.

  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Members Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2019 3:47am #113

    @puresurfr said:
    Ok both you gentleman have made some very good and valid points and your arguments are quite strong. I have a background in this sort of stuff and I can't decide which way to lean. I have a masters in Physiology and you guys are way over my head. Haha of course ive been playing golf for 20 years and im still confused about that too. So far I have gotten stronger and also more powerful. I did not get shorter but im not that much longer. I think technique is my next step to trying to get a bit longer. I think everybody has weak links in their swing and some people will get longer by being stronger and some guys will get longer by having better technique. Since we are trying to improve our golf game, technique is vital and a little extra power that is controllable would be helpful too.

    I completely agree with you. Both are beneficial. It’s not binary at all, but the question was binary. How this all plays out for each individual differs based on our own strengths and weaknesses. Personally I went from barely scraping past 200 with the driver to hitting a max carry of 280. I tried everything... and failed at most things. Failure is a fantastic way to learn.

    I think for the average person looking to get longer that better technique will beat chasing strength gains as a very general rule. Both help, but technique gains have a greater spectrum of benefits IMHO. That just wasn’t the question asked in this thread.

    I personally dropped overall muscle mass as a conscious decision last year and have tried hard to maintain my distance gains under those conditions. A really tough challenge for me. For a given swing - ceteris paribus - would additional strength help? Certainly.

    Thanks for sticking with us... the Internet often makes things binary and black-and-white. We all know the real world poses more fuzzy challenges for us. And there isn’t much that’s more fuzzy than golf!

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FLMembers Posts: 5,471 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @PorscheFan said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    IMO your logic is all over the place and some of the things you're stating dont support previous statements.

    You set em up and I'll knock em down. Not a single element of discontinuity. You let me know what parts and I'll explain exactly how you jumped to the wrong conclusion.

    You also haven't addressed some of the hypotheticals or real examples, some of which you brought to the table (i.e. Nelly Korda).

    I did. Here you go: Nelly Korda... An efficient swing and incredibly talented. She can't hit it as far as Rory (who also has an efficient swing and is incredibly talented) because of strength. Simple. The difference between the average driving differences between the LPGA and the PGA tours isn't talent (there's an abundance of that in both) - it's strength.

    some people are just faster, even if they're not very strong.

    Correct, but that's a TOTALLY different argument, which is something you just accused me of.
    There will be people that have MUCH faster swings than others based on better mechanics and greater neuromuscular efficiancy, but once again, that's NOT the scope of the equestion being asked. The scope of the question asked was 'all else being equal'. Of course there are people that are super fast but not very strong, but that's neuromuscular efficiency and swing efficiency... It in no way proves that strength doesn't move the needle... That's the logic equivalent of "There's a fountain in my yard and there are no elephants in my yard therefore I conclude that fountains keep elephants away".

    E.g.: This is why my skinny little 17 year old 22 HC nephew can swing a driver 10-15 mph faster than his 51 year old 0 HC uncle, who BTW, can out power the little whipper-snapper in the gym in just about any strength metric that you can come up with. The kid's got speed, but he's not very strong... yet! Lol

    Again, your nephew and uncle aren't the same person with the same swing efficiency. It's a totally different comparative argument with a completely different set of variables.
    My 7YO son does SuperSpeed. He hit a new high yesterday of 80MPH with green (his red is 70MPH). He is VERY fast relative to his strength and can probably swing faster than some males that are much stronger than him, but that's not the point. The point is that with the SAME efficiency and MORE strength he'd be faster still.

    @PorscheFan , now you're coming around, but for some reason still can't get the original question correct or are intentionally trying to obfuscate to justify your arguments.

    Again, here is what the OP asked (the "exam question" lol), verbatim:

    "If two golfers have an identical swing, but one is fairly stronger (strength) than the other will the stronger golfer hit the ball farther?"

    He didn't ask about two golfers with the same neurological potential for speed... he said "identical swing." He didn't even say two golfers with identical swings and "identical swing speed."

    I'm pretty sure most would agree that the OP was talking about form/technique when he said "identical swing", not the brain's ability to fire the muscles driving the swing to physically create speed. Just look at the genesis and context of the discussion. That's why I have repeatedly said "not necessarily." It's apparent that it wasn't readily understood that some people are just naturally wired to be faster, that's the "secret sauce" lol, even if they're not the stronger of the two. In your post above, seems like you"ve finally agreed?

    I've said continually, "the player with the faster/more efficient neurological response will be faster, as long as he's "strong enough" to support that speed." I've never changed the argument or moved the goal posts.

    Do you still disagree?

    Now, I'll extend an olive branch and concede that if two players had an identical swing, identical kinematic sequencing, are the same size, and possess identical nueromuscular potential to generate speed, I'd agree that the stronger player would theoretically be capable of "hitting it farther." I'm a huge proponent of strength/power training and would never argue otherwise. But...that's not what was asked, or this thread would likely have ended on the first page.

    Oh, and BTW, I'm "the uncle" from my example...Lol. 😁

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  • talfredsontalfredson Moville, IowaMembers Posts: 29 ✭✭

    @PorscheFan said:

    @talfredson said:
    Decided to jump in on this thread. I do lots of lunges and lower body lifts that focus on 1 leg (1 leg RD, pistol squat). I also work a lot on shoulders and back. I rarely do any tricep/bicep work. I do 6 lifts 4 days a week.

    Program goes as follows:
    1. Lower body (lunges, goblet squats, RDL's)
    2. Push exercise (usually 1 arm exercises
    3. Pull exercise (usually 1 arm row variation)
    4. Olympic lift w/ DB (1 arm snatch to lunge, DB swing, DB snatches, clean-press)
    5. push exercise (landmine lift)
    6. pull exercise (landmine lift)

    I usually do about 3 sets and in between each set I do about :20 of cardio 2 days a week. On the other 2 days I mix in a yoga pose in between each set and hold for :15. Will sometimes throw in some core stability exercises in to help with lower back strengthening.

    I don't do any weight that distributes any pressure on my spine, I have a damaged disc in my lower back that 2 years ago gave me horrible sciatica nerve pain at 31 years old. Been working on a lot of core strengthening lifts and don't bear weight on my spine. I've noticed the lower body exercises that focus on 1 leg really help with my balance and explosion. I hit my driver about 310 consistently and can ramp it up to 320 if necessary and I feel I'm in control of my swing thanks to strong core, legs, and shoulders. I use strictly dumbbells and barbells. I use resistance bands for a lot of the shoulder stuff to get some good isometric work in.

    Man, I love your approach: functional, balance, explosive moves, no hero stuff. Having sufferend previous disc herniations myself it makes so much sense...

    Yeah I haven't had sciatica nerve pain since I started doing all this functional stuff. I read an online version of some fitness trainer who is big into functional training and then just started doing lifts that focus a lot on eccentric and isometric movements. I do a ton of 1 arm DB bench press and actually went up in my max bench press without doing any barbell bench training.

  • talfredsontalfredson Moville, IowaMembers Posts: 29 ✭✭

    If anybody is looking to hit on some balance, stability, explosiveness, and power put this in your routine.

  • HonestPlayerHonestPlayer Members Posts: 264 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 7, 2019 3:53pm #117

    @puresurfr said:
    i absolutely agree, the stronger individual is not always gonna be the faster individual......But the faster individual "may" get even faster if he gets stronger and more powerful.

    Faster is very subjective. Runner A beats Runner B to the line yes, but mindset plays a huge factor. There's a huge chance B would have smoked A with a gun to their head. Even in the Olympic games final the pressure is nothing like having a gun to your head and snipers. No wonder Owens ran the greatest race in history in 1936. Ran like he had a gun to his head and proved he was the best without a shadow of a doubt. It took the expression bit between the teeth to a new level. I can respect that a lot. The same goes for strength. You have to want to do it. If you have nothing to gain from it then it's pointless. Your average meet just isn't the same as a national competition. Not in the slightest. Or a world's and etc. The pressure builds and the real best athlete wins at Olympic games for example - it filters out the fakers from the real players. When Tiger Woods dominated in his prime he was faking nothing, the dude was just dominating everyone around him. And it all came down to mentality. It's how he always played, leaving it all on the line. Yes it messing up his body, but he did what he wanted to do and achieved it. In this sense an individual could be stronger, faster and more powerful and lose in all three aspects to another individual - purely due to the situation in which the competition is occurring and the relevance of it. There is a lot going on in sports. Some people perform far better with zero pressure, others perform far better with pressure - and that's situational too and dependant on what they are good at deep down and what they are not good at including if they are trying to impress others or not.

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  • puresurfrpuresurfr Members Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 8, 2019 6:39pm #118

    Removed

    Post edited by puresurfr on
  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    So what did you guys decide?

  • northgolfnorthgolf Pork Members Posts: 4,100 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @oikos1 said:
    So what did you guys decide?

    I think the decision was to agree to disagree.

    If I do this 11,548 more times, I will be having fun. - Zippy the Pinhead
  • ZitlowZitlow Members Posts: 367 ✭✭✭✭

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