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Golf should be free

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  • CDMCDM Members  2074WRX Points: 294Posts: 2,074 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @tatertot said:

    On -, @CDM said:

    On -, @tatertot said:

    On -, @CDM said:

    This thread is sooo funny. Two things come to my mind.... Why 25 and why not Seniors??

    Honestly instead certain people stating why is should be done for people under 25... maybe explain why you think you should get the discount? Why just 25? Its a fact a private courses that a large percent (not all) in that age bracket have to start to paying full price they walk from the club.

    Secondary why not seniors? Should they not get golf after a certain age? (which I am not in that age bracket, but **** sure not in the age bracket that wants everything for free) Seniors have paid more their fair share of taxes to help cover that "public" course you want to play free until your 25. Plus we all know private courses are NOT going to give free golf out. *discounted yes but not free.

    Whats next free health care? Wiping out student loans? .......... o wait........

    Because you "hook" young people when when they're poor, and make them pay when they get older and have more money? It's an investment, not a handout.

    When old people get older ... they die.

    “When old people get older…they die” Shows your true character and respect.

    Let me educate you on the model of "HOOK" them when young and why it is failing.

    Pretty simple really...LIFE… and nothing more.

    The theory was / is known as many are noting is you hook them when they are young for the future. Make the cost lower to get them in the door so it is affordable. Yes it helps the club generate some extra revenue that may not be there now and hopefully a future long term member.

    Why it has been failing is the younger members that come in at the lower fee/initiation and ends up leaving is they end up having a family.

    This young member gets married, buys a house, has kids. Around that time suddenly the DUES go up which happens right when daycare/medical/life expenses kick in for his/her family. Daycare where I live runs $1200-2000 a month depending on one kid or two and that is an average range. Suddenly that "extra" income the young member was able to use to join the club is gone,

    Second most common explanation for leaving has been TIME related to family, not golf. Once young the member’s kid’s become active (Soccer, baseball, and volleyball...sports... the travel associated) the member’s time is gone and the cost related to kid’s sports today is expensive. Honestly shocking at times.

    Stats now show that most new members that are joining clubs in there late 40’s early 50’s actually stay in the club. All seem to site life expenses are gone and they have extra income. Ie: Kids cost, College Funds, Mortgages, etc.

    EDIT: Everyone knows theory is based on / projecting the young member making more SALARY over time and can afford the increases but its not happening with everything else going up. Sadly If you think that statement is not true then you need look at the economics nationally in this country on salary increases over that last 15 years….!

    I didn't say it was a GOOD theory ... you asked why give young people free golf and not old people.

    And trust me, I'm one of the old people, I know what's coming.

    I am at the OLD person age, or at least the AARP card showed up LOL

    Posted:
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  • CDMCDM Members  2074WRX Points: 294Posts: 2,074 Platinum Tees
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    Side note: This topic is really interesting to me for personal reason.

    I have been working with a City I do business in. I was asked to volunteer on a board/committee to review the Cities 6 golf courses. Right now 4 make money, 2 do not. Overall the golf division is making money as "whole" because the 4 that make money they are excellent tracks BUT like everything the "higher ups" are only focused on the two courses losing money and view them costing the City funds that can be used elsewhere.

    There has been heavy discussions on the two courses being shut down potentially. Sad part is they are the "cheaper" courses to play and get more general golfers / first time golfers. The courses are nothing special and honestly poor designs inside developments from 30 years ago is really causing the problems for a fiscal stand point.

    In all our discussion with legal council it is very clear its hard to shut them down from a public (city) stand point. Given they have homes around or on them the lawsuits that would come would be brutal. Re-development / redesign is an option but it requires a long term investment with really no secure fact it will work. Its tough in the world of golf right now and only getting worse. I think locally in Denver in the last 10-12 years there has only had 1 new course to open and it was the new TPC course last year and it was part of a master planned development to make it work

    In the last meeting we reviewed a lot of the private course foreclosures in the last 10 years and pretty much the ones that made it were bought by a group of members in that club or private equity groups like Club Corp (or whoever they are now) if the course was nice enough. What is making them work is almost all them were purchased for 0.30 to 0.40 cents on the dollar removing debt. It allowed them to get the debt payment out of operations for the most part allowing them to survive and turn a small profit.

    Land cost, water rights, construction, insurance, etc. It is just to hard now unless you make an amazing track and can charge high enough fees.

    Posted:
  • 86020818602081 Members  2113WRX Points: 242Handicap: 10Posts: 2,113 Platinum Tees
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    Most city/county courses are giving Free play for minors in late afternoons. I used to take my son all the time..

    Posted:
  • CDMCDM Members  2074WRX Points: 294Posts: 2,074 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @8602081 said:

    Most city/county courses are giving Free play for minors in late afternoons. I used to take my son all the time..

    That is true locally also. If I played in the mid/late afternoon my daughter played for free. If we took a cart I did have to pay for her "seat". Sadly she never got into golf but that is also this generation. Golf is not an "instant" return like everyone seems to want today.

    A key issue with the 2 courses noted in my post above is also one factor on loosing revenue. The "free golf" to minors with a paying adult accounts for a larger percentage of play then I knew until getting involved. Removing the program though everyone agrees is a bad idea.

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    Post edited by CDM on
  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16865WRX Points: 1,021Handicap: 4-5Posts: 16,865 Titanium Tees
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    Young or kids, golf isn't even free in socialistic or communist countries. It's actually for the really wealthy.

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  • CMCSGolfCMCSGolf Members  643WRX Points: 164Posts: 643 Golden Tee
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    On -, @LICC said:

    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    Young or kids, golf isn't even free in socialistic or communist countries. It's actually for the really wealthy.

    Not true. Golf is played by millions in the middle class.

    In France it is definitely a game for the rich and France certainly leans Socialist. I've heard Van de Velde talk about it a few times in interviews (Losers in Netflix) and he says golf is just viewed as a game inside country clubs. And he hopes his success changes that.

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  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16865WRX Points: 1,021Handicap: 4-5Posts: 16,865 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Sep 6, 2019 #68

    On -, @LICC said:

    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    Young or kids, golf isn't even free in socialistic or communist countries. It's actually for the really wealthy.

    Not true. Golf is played by millions in the middle class.

    You need to get out more instead of relying on google search. I have traveled around the world, almost twice now... been places you can't imagine except on History channel, yet golf courses exist. Average Joe isn't playing golf in most EU countries, Venezuela, China or Central or South America or Japan. They hit balls at a range and that's so costly it's amazing. Last I knew Hungary, which is rather progressive, has approximately 18 courses all near Budapest. Everywhere I have been golf is economically not feasible, controlled by the State and or wealthy, and middle class does not exist.

    Posted:
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  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16865WRX Points: 1,021Handicap: 4-5Posts: 16,865 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @LICC said:

    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    On -, @LICC said:

    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    Young or kids, golf isn't even free in socialistic or communist countries. It's actually for the really wealthy.

    Not true. Golf is played by millions in the middle class.

    You need to get out more instead of relying on google search. I have traveled around the world, almost twice now... been places you can't imagine except on History channel, yet golf courses exist. Average Joe isn't playing golf in most EU countries, Venezuela, China or Central or South America or Japan. They hit balls at a range and that's so costly it's amazing. Last I knew Hungary, which is rather progressive, has approximately 18 courses all near Budapest. Everywhere I have been golf is economically not feasible, controlled by the State and or wealthy, and middle class does not exist.

    Tens of millions of middle class Americans play golf.

    That has nothing to do with the OP's wish. Besides, America is a capitalistic country. None of the states or federal government provides free golf or... But you can play "horse" and ride a bike for free. LOL And the middle class you refer to pays for golf.

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  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 IowaClubWRX  21658WRX Points: 5,658Posts: 21,658 ClubWRX
    Joined:  edited Sep 6, 2019 #70

    Easy to profess to all sorts of noble sentiments.

    Plenty of courses have discounts, free golf for kids, plenty of programs.

    Not a “should” thing, but nice for those who make exceptions or allowances to do that and if they don’t, so what. They need to make money.

    Posted:
  • PuerAzaelisPuerAzaelis Members  2WRX Points: 10Posts: 2 Starters
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    How many golf courses are there today versus 50 years ago?

    Posted:
  • N0rs3manN0rs3man Members  208WRX Points: 68Posts: 208 Fairways
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    Ask yourself. What is the dominant sport? Most ppl watch the team sports of schools and follow those sports all the way to the pro circuit. But why? Football, basketball , baseball, soccer, all outshine golf from a popularity stand point. Yet golf is the only sport in which you can play till your grave. Golf has the potential to become the most popular sport in the world. Yet it is being held back by lack of opportunity. Especially in today's world when one trackman can basically simulate millions of golf courses with basically no cost. That helps tear down the logistical problems if all of the nations kids are in golf instead of football, or baseball. Golf is the one of the few sports that can be solo and team based.

    Once I was out of high school I never played team sports again. So why did I waste all my time learning a worthless skill?

    Posted:

    Are you a scratch player? A: I sure am—every time I hit the ball I scratch my head and wonder where it went.

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  • tatertottatertot Members  4620WRX Points: 935Posts: 4,620 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    On -, @LICC said:

    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    Young or kids, golf isn't even free in socialistic or communist countries. It's actually for the really wealthy.

    Not true. Golf is played by millions in the middle class.

    You need to get out more instead of relying on google search. I have traveled around the world, almost twice now... been places you can't imagine except on History channel, yet golf courses exist. Average Joe isn't playing golf in most EU countries, Venezuela, China or Central or South America or Japan. They hit balls at a range and that's so costly it's amazing. Last I knew Hungary, which is rather progressive, has approximately 18 courses all near Budapest. Everywhere I have been golf is economically not feasible, controlled by the State and or wealthy, and middle class does not exist.

    Did they let you take your ego on board as carry on, or did you have to declare it?

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  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16865WRX Points: 1,021Handicap: 4-5Posts: 16,865 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @LICC said:

    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    On -, @LICC said:

    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    On -, @LICC said:

    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    Young or kids, golf isn't even free in socialistic or communist countries. It's actually for the really wealthy.

    Not true. Golf is played by millions in the middle class.

    You need to get out more instead of relying on google search. I have traveled around the world, almost twice now... been places you can't imagine except on History channel, yet golf courses exist. Average Joe isn't playing golf in most EU countries, Venezuela, China or Central or South America or Japan. They hit balls at a range and that's so costly it's amazing. Last I knew Hungary, which is rather progressive, has approximately 18 courses all near Budapest. Everywhere I have been golf is economically not feasible, controlled by the State and or wealthy, and middle class does not exist.

    Tens of millions of middle class Americans play golf.

    That has nothing to do with the OP's wish. Besides, America is a capitalistic country. None of the states or federal government provides free golf or... But you can play "horse" and ride a bike for free. LOL And the middle class you refer to pays for golf.

    Ok I think we have some misunderstanding here. I was referring to your comment that only the wealthy play golf. I now assume you were only talking about socialist or communist countries.

    Yes, except many countries outside those style of governments have golf but it's predominately limited to the upper class. The lower class doesn't make enough to enjoy golf and there isn't much of a middle-class. regardless of what's said on social media, America still has three-classes. Have a good day.>

    On -, @tatertot said:

    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    On -, @LICC said:

    On -, @Pepperturbo said:

    Young or kids, golf isn't even free in socialistic or communist countries. It's actually for the really wealthy.

    Not true. Golf is played by millions in the middle class.

    You need to get out more instead of relying on google search. I have traveled around the world, almost twice now... been places you can't imagine except on History channel, yet golf courses exist. Average Joe isn't playing golf in most EU countries, Venezuela, China or Central or South America or Japan. They hit balls at a range and that's so costly it's amazing. Last I knew Hungary, which is rather progressive, has approximately 18 courses all near Budapest. Everywhere I have been golf is economically not feasible, controlled by the State and or wealthy, and middle class does not exist.

    Did they let you take your ego on board as carry on, or did you have to declare it?

    You had better check with your psychiatrist to ensure you're ready to reason and socialize in a civilized society? So far it's not looking good.

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  • OutBackHackOutBackHack Members  1010WRX Points: 157Posts: 1,010 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @N0rs3man said:

    Ok let me explain. Golf should be free for people under 25, and for people who bring their kids out.

    There is constant talk about golf's decline, and that millenials cant afford golf. There's no interest in it.

    Not sure if anyone follows video games, but the most recent games that blow up every chart with 10x more players are the free to play ones. Once people are playing, the money rolls in. Get them out there, get golf in everyone's life, then they will spend their money on golf one way or another.

    You say.. sounds great but courses cant make it.. I say they will make way more because general interest is up. Go look at fornite, and tell me microtransactions dont make money.

    Do the kids need to be your own, or can you "borrow" one?

    Posted:
  • GolfnuckGolfnuck Members  660WRX Points: 112Posts: 660 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Sep 8, 2019 #76

    There is constant talk about golf's decline, and that millenials cant afford golf. There's no interest in it.
    Not sure if anyone follows video games, but the most recent games that blow up every chart with 10x more players are the free to play ones. Once people are playing, the money rolls in. Get them out there, get golf in everyone's life, then they will spend their money on golf one way or another.
    You say.. sounds great but courses cant make it.. I say they will make way more because general interest is up. Go look at fornite, and tell me microtransactions dont make money.

    To address the OP's specific assertion about golf's decline and milennials cannot afford golf so lets get them involved by offering up free golf etc.

    I will offer up some very unpopular opinions (flame suit on):

    1. Golf has survived since the 15th century and it will do just fine in the future. The sky is not falling golf will survive.
    2. Golf is expensive and consumes a lot of time. For the majority of people this usually does not come until they are in their 50's. Millennials are generally stated to be born between 1981 to 1996 which would make them 22 to 37. Way too young to have either time or money to participate regularly in golf. Why the panic????
    3. We did not have any internet forums to "create" panic till recently. I am sure had there been such a platform in the 60's similar comments would have been made about Generation X and their participation in golf.
    4. Golf is doing just fine in my area. My course was holding a member tournament this morning (Saturday) so my regular group was looking to book at a public course and we started looking on Wednesday and not one single time was available at any public course. Of the 5 higher tiered private courses (initiation fees in excess of $50k) in my area three of them have waitlists in excess of 70 people. In fact our course has raised the initiation fees by $10k in the last two years and despite a waitlist in excess of 70 people we still get new members on a monthly basis. Golf is doing just fine.

    I know this is a discussion forum so we have to find stuff to "discuss" or else what is the point of coming on here.

    Posted:
    Post edited by Golfnuck on
  • Tim_GavrichTim_Gavrich Golf Travel Guru Vero Beach, FLFeatured Writer  201WRX Points: 77Posts: 201 Fairways
    Joined:  #77

    For what it's worth, one of the most historic golf courses in the world is free to play:

    The Bruntsfield Links Short Hole Golf Club in center-city, Edinburgh, Scotland:

    The Short Hole Club is a charming 36-hole pitch-and-putt that is free to play and maintained by volunteers. I saw parents and kids, older men playing with a dog padding along and many players in between.

    Crazy - a municipality values golf as a recreational pursuit that, at least in this modest way, they consider it worth subsidizing for the people. It's one of the very best things in the world of golf.





    Posted:
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  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 MaineMembers  20366WRX Points: 937Posts: 20,366 Titanium Tees
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    Golf is free at my club to kids under a certain age. Junior memberships are still under $100 and have been for nearly 30 years. College memberships are only slightly higher than that. Once you have a job, though, (or are of working age) you need to pull your weight like everyone else.

    Posted:


  • RainShadowRainShadow Tucson AZ (for now)Members  4271WRX Points: 545Handicap: 8.2Posts: 4,271 Titanium Tees
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    Nothing in life is free.
    Didn’t your parents teach you that?

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  • cristphotocristphoto Members  4015WRX Points: 401Handicap: 7Posts: 4,015 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 7, 2019 #80

    Does Bernie S. play golf? Maybe he has a plan.

    Posted:
  • TexasTurfTexasTurf Members  103WRX Points: 64Posts: 103 Fairways
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    On -, @Tim Gavrich said:

    For what it's worth, one of the most historic golf courses in the world is free to play:

    The Bruntsfield Links Short Hole Golf Club in center-city, Edinburgh, Scotland:

    The Short Hole Club is a charming 36-hole pitch-and-putt that is free to play and maintained by volunteers. I saw parents and kids, older men playing with a dog padding along and many players in between.

    Crazy - a municipality values golf as a recreational pursuit that, at least in this modest way, they consider it worth subsidizing for the people. It's one of the very best things in the world of golf.





    That's cool. But the modern game isn't putting on 2 inch long greens. It's closer to 0.12 inches. That takes an investment by someone.

    Posted:
  • cristphotocristphoto Members  4015WRX Points: 401Handicap: 7Posts: 4,015 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @TexasTurf said:

    On -, @Tim Gavrich said:

    For what it's worth, one of the most historic golf courses in the world is free to play:

    The Bruntsfield Links Short Hole Golf Club in center-city, Edinburgh, Scotland:

    The Short Hole Club is a charming 36-hole pitch-and-putt that is free to play and maintained by volunteers. I saw parents and kids, older men playing with a dog padding along and many players in between.

    Crazy - a municipality values golf as a recreational pursuit that, at least in this modest way, they consider it worth subsidizing for the people. It's one of the very best things in the world of golf.





    That's cool. But the modern game isn't putting on 2 inch long greens. It's closer to 0.12 inches. That takes an investment by someone.

    How do you put a 4 inch cup in a two inch green?

    Posted:
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  • cristphotocristphoto Members  4015WRX Points: 401Handicap: 7Posts: 4,015 Titanium Tees
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    Ignore prior response - I read it wrong.

    Posted:
  • KMeloneyKMeloney Members  5081WRX Points: 341Handicap:[email protected] 7Posts: 5,081 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @GolfChannel said:

    On -, @ThinkingPlus said:

    On -, @Tugu said:

    On -, @teejaywhy said:

    On -, @Tugu said:

    Just an observation, but there's a hint of the "get off my lawn" creeping into some of the responses. Young people don't want to spend their days dealing with self appointed authority figures. Maybe for free they might, who knows. I'd love to see it in action.

    You're right. Golf should be free. Let's all hold hands and sing kumbaya.

    Some places in the developed world have even managed free healthcare and tertiary education. Golf would actually be an easy one if one wanted to do it.

    Nothing is free. Someone or everyone always pays.

    I love threads like this, invariably the contrarians come out because heaven forbid a system is improved. Telling me why something won’t work is intellectually lazy and a failures mentality. We know the pitfalls, how do we get beyond them? If you aren’t giving that then post somewhere else...

    What's intellectually lazy is impugning everyone who doesn't agree with you by calling them "intellectually lazy."

    Posted:
  • Tim_GavrichTim_Gavrich Golf Travel Guru Vero Beach, FLFeatured Writer  201WRX Points: 77Posts: 201 Fairways
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    On -, @TexasTurf said:

    That's cool. But the modern game isn't putting on 2 inch long greens. It's closer to 0.12 inches. That takes an investment by someone.

    Ah yes, "the modern game," which has fooled people into thinking that a course that isn't over-maintained in some asinine pursuit of Tour-quality maintenance is not worth playing. That "modern game" sucks, and makes places like the Short Hole Club all the more valuable because they show golfers with open minds how much fun the simple versions of the game can be, too.

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  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX  2586WRX Points: 1,581Handicap: +2.2Posts: 2,586 ClubWRX
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    On -, @Tim Gavrich said:

    On -, @TexasTurf said:

    That's cool. But the modern game isn't putting on 2 inch long greens. It's closer to 0.12 inches. That takes an investment by someone.

    Ah yes, "the modern game," which has fooled people into thinking that a course that isn't over-maintained in some asinine pursuit of Tour-quality maintenance is not worth playing. That "modern game" sucks, and makes places like the Short Hole Club all the more valuable because they show golfers with open minds how much fun the simple versions of the game can be, too.

    Not only would stimp 3 greens be cheaper to maintain, but you could also remove putter from the bag saving even more money. ;-)

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