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New World Handicaps 2020

Does anyone know how the math will work? Now the 10 lowest differentials are added, averaged and then multiplied by .96 to get your index. Looking at my most recent revision scores my index is 16.5. If the new handicap in 2020 is to be based on 8 best scores of 20 instead of 10 then averaged if it is still multiplied by .96 my index would be 12.8. Seems like a big difference.

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  • jvincentjvincent Members Posts: 799 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's still going to be based on differentials, not scores.

    Average of the 8 best differentials instead of best 10 and no more multiply by 0.96. The other big difference is ESC is now based on max NET double.

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  • TocgolferTocgolfer Members Posts: 37 ✭✭

    Over here in Aus how the handicap works is top 8 scores of your last 20 and multiply by .93. But when you play a course your G.A. Handicap is used to determine what your daily handicap is when the slope rating is used.

  • MoonlightgrmMoonlightgrm MassachusettsMembers Posts: 943 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jvincent said:
    It's still going to be based on differentials, not scores.

    Average of the 8 best differentials instead of best 10 and no more multiply by 0.96. The other big difference is ESC is now based on max NET double.

    I looked up my last 20-scores at GHIN. If that’s the case my current index of 2.8 drops to 2.4. I would think that it’s unlikely anyone’s handicap is going up with this method.

  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 6,966 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tocgolfer said:
    Over here in Aus how the handicap works is top 8 scores of your last 20 and multiply by .93. But when you play a course your G.A. Handicap is used to determine what your daily handicap is when the slope rating is used.

    The 0.93 will go.

  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 6,966 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Moonlightgrm said:

    @jvincent said:
    It's still going to be based on differentials, not scores.

    Average of the 8 best differentials instead of best 10 and no more multiply by 0.96. The other big difference is ESC is now based on max NET double.

    I looked up my last 20-scores at GHIN. If that’s the case my current index of 2.8 drops to 2.4. I would think that it’s unlikely anyone’s handicap is going up with this method.

    There may be larger or smaller differences in other parts of the world where averaging is not currently used.

  • ImpImp Fueled Members Posts: 6,052 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Does anyone have any information on the "abnormal course and weather condition" calculation?

    Curious how that's going to work. It it factored day of to assign strokes, or after the round to enter in the system?

    --kC

    Callaway Rogue 10.5 / Callaway Rogue 3W / Mizuno JPX-EZ Forged Irons / Callaway MD4 52*, 58*, 64*
  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 6,966 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    It is a statistical procedure comparing all scores all recorded scores on that day against expected scoring patterns and calculated overnight.

  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Imp said:
    Does anyone have any information on the "abnormal course and weather condition" calculation?

    Curious how that's going to work. It it factored day of to assign strokes, or after the round to enter in the system?

    --kC

    You can find the calculations done for the Computed Buffer Adjustment used for competition scores in the EGA from the link below (page 45). The CBA is calculated when all scores have been returned and the results are finalized. In the new system the calculations would take place at or some time after midnight.

    The system simply looks at the scores for the competition/day and if the scores are unusually good or bad, it is assumed it was due to the conditions and the scores therefore require adjustments for handicap purposes. Of course the formulas will most likely be different in the WHS.

    http://drieeycken.be/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2014/03/rbgfega_handicap_system_20132016_version_20131.pdf

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  • ImpImp Fueled Members Posts: 6,052 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 2:10pm #10

    No, that's not confusing at all (to do in ones head). I write some software to track leagues, and was just curious to get a heads up on the calcs... and run some test numbers to inform the users. I'll wait to see how it shakes out (is published) in the WHS before I do. I really hope they don't wait until Jan to actually publish the cals.

    --kC

    Callaway Rogue 10.5 / Callaway Rogue 3W / Mizuno JPX-EZ Forged Irons / Callaway MD4 52*, 58*, 64*
  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 2:15pm #11

    @Moonlightgrm said:

    @jvincent said:
    It's still going to be based on differentials, not scores.

    Average of the 8 best differentials instead of best 10 and no more multiply by 0.96. The other big difference is ESC is now based on max NET double.

    I looked up my last 20-scores at GHIN. If that’s the case my current index of 2.8 drops to 2.4. I would think that it’s unlikely anyone’s handicap is going up with this method.

    I just ran my last 20 differentials.

    Under the new method (best 8 of 20 averaged, no 0.96 multiplier) before rounding my index would be 18.500

    Under the current method (best 10 of 20 averaged, 0.96 multiplier) before rounding my index is 18.432

    So after rounding, the new system would make mine go "up" from 18.4 to 18.5 but that's just an illusion of rounding. Basically it would stay the same. I had checked this earlier in the summer (with a different 20 scores posted) and at that time the difference would have been to stay exactly the same after rounding.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • jvincentjvincent Members Posts: 799 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I haven't bothered to check mine, but I'm sure it will be close enough to not matter.

    One thing that I still haven't seen clarified is whether or not hole by hole score posting was going to be a requirement of the new system or not. I was in a discussion with some guys on another forum who seemed to think it would be but I haven't seen that confirmed yet.

    Cobra F9 9* : Tour AD TP 7-S
    Cobra LTD set at 16* : Tour AD TP 8-S
    Cobra 3U set at 19.5* : Nippon Modus3 130-S
    Wishon 565MC 4-PW : Nippon Modus3 130-S
    Cleveland RTX3 50, 54, 58 : Nippon Modus3 130-S
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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @jvincent said:
    I haven't bothered to check mine, but I'm sure it will be close enough to not matter.

    One thing that I still haven't seen clarified is whether or not hole by hole score posting was going to be a requirement of the new system or not. I was in a discussion with some guys on another forum who seemed to think it would be but I haven't seen that confirmed yet.

    In the discussion you refer to, the discussants seem to believe that their own pet ways for the system to work are going to be forced on everyone. Including hole-by-hole posting.

    Due to the fragmentary and provisional (often inconsistent) information trickling out of the various world handicapping bodies, people tend to see what they want to see in the tea leaves, if you know what I mean.

    The reality is, the supposedly standardized World Handicap System will be highly customized by every different organization doing handicapping in their own country. I doubt that something like hole-by-hole posting will be uniformly implemented. Even much more important issues (like attested scores) are as far as current information indicates going to be left up to local authorities rather than standardized world-wide.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @North Butte said:

    @jvincent said:
    I haven't bothered to check mine, but I'm sure it will be close enough to not matter.

    One thing that I still haven't seen clarified is whether or not hole by hole score posting was going to be a requirement of the new system or not. I was in a discussion with some guys on another forum who seemed to think it would be but I haven't seen that confirmed yet.

    In the discussion you refer to, the discussants seem to believe that their own pet ways for the system to work are going to be forced on everyone. Including hole-by-hole posting.

    Due to the fragmentary and provisional (often inconsistent) information trickling out of the various world handicapping bodies, people tend to see what they want to see in the tea leaves, if you know what I mean.

    The reality is, the supposedly standardized World Handicap System will be highly customized by every different organization doing handicapping in their own country. I doubt that something like hole-by-hole posting will be uniformly implemented. Even much more important issues (like attested scores) are as far as current information indicates going to be left up to local authorities rather than standardized world-wide.

    This is my understanding as well, the calculations will now be the same around the world, but significant differences will remain. My personal hope is that the 2020 changes will be a first step, and we'll see additional steps taken over the next decade or so to truly unite the handicaps worldwide.

  • Colin LColin L Members Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 4:10pm #15

    Whether hole by hole recording Is required will be at the discretion of each handicapping authority. It will be required by CONGU.

  • McgeenoMcgeeno Members Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    If I drop the two highest of my 'top 10' I drop almost a full point.

    I would go from 1.8 to 1.1

    Should be interesting how it all comes together.

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Colin L said:
    Whether hole by hole recording Is required will be at the discretion of each handicapping authority. It will be required by CONGU.

    Which is in effect no change from the current system. Today hole by hole is required by CONGU (makes sense since they are basically using attested comp scorecards) and it is optional under USGA.

    In 2020 it will be required by CONGU and there's nothing about the new system that requires it to be anything other than optional under USGA.

    As DaveP correctly says, this is mostly a handicap formula reconciliation. Reconciling all other aspects of handicapping among the various authorities is left for future revisions.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • Deceptively ShortDeceptively Short Members Posts: 473 ✭✭✭✭

    @Colin L said:
    Whether hole by hole recording Is required will be at the discretion of each handicapping authority. It will be required by CONGU.

    I thought one of the key tenets of WHS is the move to net double bogey as ‘maximum score’ and doing away with Esc? Has this been changed? Otherwise I don’t see how you can compute ndb.

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Deceptively Short said:

    @Colin L said:
    Whether hole by hole recording Is required will be at the discretion of each handicapping authority. It will be required by CONGU.

    I thought one of the key tenets of WHS is the move to net double bogey as ‘maximum score’ and doing away with Esc? Has this been changed? Otherwise I don’t see how you can compute ndb.

    You would make the player responsible for knowing when he's made net double bogey. Just as you current expect him to know that 8 or 7 or gross double bogey is his ESC limit.

    Of course in the Real World most golfers on GHIN will carry forward just like today. They will pick up and say "give me a 6" no matter what their course handicap.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • golfingforfungolfingforfun Members Posts: 12 ✭✭

    Would your lowest 2 tournament scores be a part of the calculation of the last 8?
    Trying to figure this all out

  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @golfingforfun said:
    Would your lowest 2 tournament scores be a part of the calculation of the last 8?
    Trying to figure this all out

    At this stage, we don't know how Tournament scores will be handled in the US, or whether they will continue to be monitored. There IS a procedure to decrease the handicap index based on individual exceptional scores. There will also be a cap on handicap increases.
    There's some information here, mostly in broad-brush form:
    https://www.whs.com/

  • Deceptively ShortDeceptively Short Members Posts: 473 ✭✭✭✭

    So Esc will remain in the US?

  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Deceptively Short said:
    So Esc will remain in the US?

    NO, at least not in the way it is understood right now. The maximum hole score will be par plus any handicap strokes allotted for that hole plus 2 more, the gross score that would result in a net double bogey. The term "Equitable Stroke Control" will be gone completely, but the same concept, a limit on the score for each individual hole, will remain.

  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 6,966 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 6, 2019 7:33pm #24

    @davep043 said:

    The maximum hole score will be par plus any handicap strokes allotted for that hole plus 2 more, the gross score that would result in a net double bogey.

    Where a Course Handicap is more than 54 and a player receives 4 or more strokes on a hole, the maximum hole score is par + 5 **for handicap purposes **

  • Deceptively ShortDeceptively Short Members Posts: 473 ✭✭✭✭

    @Newby said:

    @davep043 said:

    The maximum hole score will be par plus any handicap strokes allotted for that hole plus 2 more, the gross score that would result in a net double bogey.

    Where a Course Handicap is more than 54 and a player receives 4 or more strokes on a hole, the maximum hole score is par + 5 **for handicap purposes **

    So how on earth can you achieve this if there is not to be mandatory hole-by-hole scoring?

  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Newby said:

    @davep043 said:
    The maximum hole score will be par plus any handicap strokes allotted for that hole plus 2 more, the gross score that would result in a net double bogey.

    Where a Course Handicap is more than 54 and a player receives 4 or more strokes on a hole, the maximum hole score is par + 5 **for handicap purposes **

    Thanks for the clarification, I hadn't read that previously, and its not mentioned on either the WHS website or on the corresponding pages of the R&A website. For most of us, "net double" will apply, its only a small percentage who will have a course handicap over 54.

  • NewbyNewby Members Posts: 6,966 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Deceptively Short said:
    So how on earth can you achieve this if there is not to be mandatory hole-by-hole scoring?

    That's where the USGA's powers of persuasion are put to the test.
    No issues in ROW (except perhaps Canada).

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Deceptively Short said:

    @Newby said:

    @davep043 said:

    The maximum hole score will be par plus any handicap strokes allotted for that hole plus 2 more, the gross score that would result in a net double bogey.

    Where a Course Handicap is more than 54 and a player receives 4 or more strokes on a hole, the maximum hole score is par + 5 **for handicap purposes **

    So how on earth can you achieve this if there is not to be mandatory hole-by-hole scoring?

    Honestly, if someone is playing off a 54 handicap who on earth cares if they apply the wrong "max hole score"?

    Why on earth (as you might say) should a 6 hcp posting 250 rounds a year be forced to type in 18 separate hole scores every stinking day just so that some guy shooting 150 can use his correct max score of 9 instead of 10 on a pickup hole.

    That's what you hole-by-hole guys fail to account for. That core group of golfers who play a lot, always shoot around the same scores, have middle-to-high single digit handicaps and whose handicap is easy as pie to compute and track. There's no percentage in implementing a system that needlessly annoys that constituency in search of some imagined perfection for imputing arbitrary max-score numbers to high-handicap hacks who pick up multiple times every round.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Deceptively Short said:

    @Newby said:

    @davep043 said:

    The maximum hole score will be par plus any handicap strokes allotted for that hole plus 2 more, the gross score that would result in a net double bogey.

    Where a Course Handicap is more than 54 and a player receives 4 or more strokes on a hole, the maximum hole score is par + 5 **for handicap purposes **

    So how on earth can you achieve this if there is not to be mandatory hole-by-hole scoring?

    Your question is a little like asking "How can we expect people to add and subtract without using an electronic calculator?" You expect players to understand where they get strokes. I know, too many won't understand, or won't care, but its really not rocket science to know your course handicap, and to allocate the strokes appropriately. And of course, using a computer to do that will make compliance better, although it may also mean that fewer rounds will be reported, especially within the US handicap area. We'll wait and see, perhaps hole by hole reporting WILL be a requirement in the US.

  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Members Posts: 5,542 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @davep043 said:

    @Deceptively Short said:
    So Esc will remain in the US?

    NO, at least not in the way it is understood right now. The maximum hole score will be par plus any handicap strokes allotted for that hole plus 2 more, the gross score that would result in a net double bogey. The term "Equitable Stroke Control" will be gone completely, but the same concept, a limit on the score for each individual hole, will remain.

    That replacement for ESC is going to befuddle about 75% of golfers. I fear it's going to make indexes less accurate.

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,338 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Any handicap system which can only work properly by having millions of golfers typing a score (or an X) into 18 blanks on an iPhone app after every single round is a broken system. If it's something that a normal golfer, acting in good faith, can't do without resorting to computer data entry then fix the system so it can be done.

    And as I've pointed out upthread, the assumption is that the data-entry mistakes of this hole-by-hole scoring (on a dinky little phone screen by guys wearing trifocals, no less) will cause less of a problem than people incorrectly understanding how ESC or net-double-bogey works.

    The difference is this. Every one of those 18 numbers will have a non-negligible likelihood of being incorrectly entered. Including the 95% of those numbers which are legitimate hole scores (not imputed by some max-hole-score rule). It's a system design that will create errors in the straightforward 95% of your data (plain vanilla hole scores) in order to better apply some kind of ad hoc rule for dealing with the 5% of your data that is missing or censored.

    That's an awful design tradeoff. Better to come up with a way of dealing with pickup or blowup holes that golfers themselves can actually understand. For those playing in the UK or other places where Stableford scoring is commonplace the solution is obvious. Max hole score is the same as the holes with a Stableford "blob". There is no similarly obvious solution in USA. I think the "ESC" thing would have had better compliance if it were named differently and if the whole "course handicap" thing were not involved.

    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 

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