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4 Years Playing (frustration, observations, and what I've learned)

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  • smashdnsmashdn Let's cut them trees down. Members Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 10, 2019 7:59pm #62

    @Krt22 said:

    That is exactly the point of SG, it tells you how much each aspect of the game matters, for that individual. A majority lose the most from tee to green, but there are certainly always outliers. The point isnt to discount short game, it's to analyze your game such that you know what you need to work on the most. Spending 4-5 hours on the practice green and 30 minutes hitting balls doesnt make sense if you are blasting 2-3 balls OB per round and only hitting a handful of greens

    And measure those aspects of your game to a norm or average for your peer group. The biggest take away I got from Broadie's work was not to waste the limited amount of practice time you have on aspects of your game that are already pretty darn good comparatively speaking.

    I drive it farther than the average amateur and hit about the same number of fairways. I take fewer than average putts. It is the in between that screws my game up. Don't hit many greens in regulation and most times when I chip or pitch on I am not saving myself a putt in the process.

    I know what to work on and what not to waste much of my practice time on.

  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,674 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @AlecEmersonGolf said:
    I'm not trying to be a downer.

    If you consistently shoot in the 80s you have no place trying to give others advice.

    I actually respectfully disagree.... With that ,

    I think players that shoot in the 80's are at a cusp point in the golfing game. This moment is a make it or break it time.

    What I mean is breaking into the 90's means you have reached a point where your ball striking has become manageable, I use the term manageable as getting around the course is not a struggle you hit good shots but have a lack of consistency, yet can scramble to make enough pars or birdies to offset the bogeys or worse.

    Being in the mid 80's in my opinion is where the "REAL" golfer has to make a choice. Find a way to break into the 70's or become complacent and accept where they are now. I fancy many golfers give up going any further... GolfWRX being the anomaly is where the small portion try to break through the 80's barrier.

    What I have noticed in my opinion about the mid 80's player.

    1) Player with a bad swing to begin with, but offset it with enough putting and short game to minimize the inconsistencies. Due to the inherent bad swing going any further will be difficult. This requires an overhaul which not all golfers may be will to do!

    2) Player with a good swing but lacks course management and ego control (most golfers period). Their game is SOLID but their Choices are lacking and many of times makes the wrong choice to which their score suffers. They can put good rounds together and even better if they maintain their game better.

    3) The Player that lacks consistency, They have a good swing/mechanics but requires practice to maintain better golf YET either dont have the time, commitment or ability to do so. Some players need to drill and drill and drill not all but some..... with enough drilling they can get down and fast.

    So its interesting to see what a mid 80's player and what advice they might have, They know the real struggle as personally I believe with enough management for ANYONE, we can get them to shoot somewhere in the 80's. BUT to break into the 70's requires a degree of skill and technically proficiency period.

    You do NOT need to a scratch golfer or a major winner to give advice and that sound advice, it validates it but its not a requirement.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,898 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @davep043 said:

    @bladehunter said:
    Which is why I agree with him maybe 75.%. I myself spend way more time on putting and shortgame. I define shortgame as inside 100 yards. I do hit a lot of wedges , and quite a good amount of 125 yard shots too. But over that I’m not a huge believer in beating balls with no purpose. And I have room to hit everything full shot at home. I just don’t find the full swing needs constant reps. It’s the feel and touch that has to be cultivated.

    You've made better progress than the OP has, in a similar time frame. Did you do it with instruction and practice, or by wandering through fields with a club but no golf balls, swinging at dandelions? Perhaps you have freakish natural talent, some people definitely have an edge that way. But I think its a logical question, as an adult learning the game pretty quickly, how did your methods differ from the OP, how were they similar?
    And perhaps more germane, since the OP was giving his advice to other beginners, would you tell a beginner to follow your learning path, or maybe your current regimen? Would you suggest that he spend most of his available time and money working on wedges, and shorter shots? For once I'm not hammering you, I'm genuinely curious. I'm a long way removed from my beginner days, in decades if not in playing ability.

    No worries boss. I’m not at all offended by the topic , and really not trying to argue. Just rolling it around.

    When I first started it was in a field at my home with a 9 iron and a bucket of balls. I figured out how far I could hit it , and made a target. I hit balls at that target for 6 months for fun. I enjoy hitting balls. I hit a big slice , and just figured out how to change that to turn it left. So a huge hook. Then eventually zeroed it out. I didn’t go to a course until it hit balls for close to a year. I broke 90 pretty fast and broke 80 with zero instruction. Unless you count YouTube. And I didn’t listen to teachers there. I watch And copy pro swings. And built mine around pieces of what I liked.

    Somewhere around 2 1/2 years ago I caught the eye of a couple mentors and I will say that I’ve had plenty of instruction from them. Mostly mental and management things. Not much full swing. Except the conquering of driver last winter and my current putter conquering mission.

    Would a normal beginner follow my path ? Probably no. They’d have to be half crazy and very ocd . I thrive on doing the impossible. I’m a workaholic and I’m the most competitive person you’ll meet. Just the way I came up. Everything was impossible or “ a first “ for me when compared to my examples to live by. If that makes any sense.

    So unlikely that a “ soft “ beginner would hit balls for a year before going to the course.

    My daily regimen. Depends on my work schedule. I basically have 3 practice type days.
    1. Busy work day or if I’m tired or sick , I won’t make a swing. Just putt. I have an artificial green at home I built. So I putt.
    2. Half work day - I’ll play 9 or 18 with very little warmup. Almost always competing with somebody. I try to make this happen once a week. But not always able to.
    3. Full work day that isn’t a strain. I have a lot of “ hurry up and wait “ days. Literally waiting for paint to dry etc. I’ll hit balls and work on short game shots all day in between work. My wedge range is outback of my shop. I keep a bucket of 50 balls at all times. I might hit that bucket 10 times in a 8 hour day. Various yardages. I truly do that for fun. To relax. One rule to that is. If I find myself too tired or if I’m just hitting it bad. I stop cold turkey. I find that just stopping and picking it up again the next day fixes all woes. You cannnot work through a “ bad feels “ session. Or at least I don’t try to.

    So yes. I do spend a lot of time practicing. But no more than people who watch spot of tv or workout or other things. I just have easy access to the practice area since I built my own.

    My suggestion for a beginner.

    Learn a proper backswing. As in if you can get to the top end set , you have a fighting chance to hit the ball. This can be practiced anywhere with no club. 1000s of reps I’ve made just a backswing.

    Learn what causes ball flight direction. Just learn what causes what. So you can self correct.
    Self I think is key. If you are dependent on someone else in this game you’re doomed. Self motivated , self correcting and you must take ownership of your swing. Meaning hit the shot you know you can hit. Not the one you saw someone else hit. Be you.

    Ok. I’ll shut up now. Lol 😂

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  • BarfolomewBarfolomew #worstWRXer Members Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    You can miss a drive in the rough and get birdie
    You cant miss a putt and get birdie

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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Barfolomew said:
    You can miss a drive in the rough and get birdie
    You cant miss a putt and get birdie

    While anecdotally correct, statistically speaking the chances of putting yourself in the position to even have a make-able birdie putt essentially scale with your ball striking ability. If you consistently have long clubs into greens, cant reach par 5s in two, are consistently missing greens, short sided, have 30+ foot putts on the greens you do hit, etc mean birdies are few and far between no matter what. PGA tour pros only make 1 out of 5 twenty footers, scratch golfers only hit 10-12 GIRs, 80s shooters only 5-6. So even if you putted like a PGA pro, the 80s golfer may only have 1 legit birdie chance per round. So if he wants to get better, should he focus on making relatively a low percentage 20+ ft putts or should he focus on consistently hitting the ball closer to the hole?

  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @smashdn said:

    @Krt22 said:

    That is exactly the point of SG, it tells you how much each aspect of the game matters, for that individual. A majority lose the most from tee to green, but there are certainly always outliers. The point isnt to discount short game, it's to analyze your game such that you know what you need to work on the most. Spending 4-5 hours on the practice green and 30 minutes hitting balls doesnt make sense if you are blasting 2-3 balls OB per round and only hitting a handful of greens

    And measure those aspects of your game to a norm or average for your peer group. The biggest take away I got from Broadie's work was not to waste the limited amount of practice time you have on aspects of your game that are already pretty darn good comparatively speaking.

    I drive it farther than the average amateur and hit about the same number of fairways. I take fewer than average putts. It is the in between that screws my game up. Don't hit many greens in regulation and most times when I chip or pitch on I am not saving myself a putt in the process.

    I know what to work on and what not to waste much of my practice time on.

    Yeah I wish the folks who argue against the SG methodology would actually take the time to read the book and at least see what it is and how it came to be. I think there would be far fewer debates if that were to occur.

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,898 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Krt22 said:

    @Barfolomew said:
    You can miss a drive in the rough and get birdie
    You cant miss a putt and get birdie

    While anecdotally correct, statistically speaking the chances of putting yourself in the position to even have a make-able birdie putt essentially scale with your ball striking ability. If you consistently have long clubs into greens, cant reach par 5s in two, are consistently missing greens, short sided, have 30+ foot putts on the greens you do hit, etc mean birdies are few and far between no matter what. PGA tour pros only make 1 out of 5 twenty footers, scratch golfers only hit 10-12 GIRs, 80s shooters only 5-6. So even if you putted like a PGA pro, the 80s golfer may only have 1 legit birdie chance per round. So if he wants to get better, should he focus on making relatively a low percentage 20+ ft putts or should he focus on consistently hitting the ball closer to the hole?

    Absolutely no offense meant by this. But .... isn’t that an extreme example ? An outlier so to speak , in the other direction. You’re describing the 10 handicap who’d be a 2 if he could chip and putt in reverse.

    I’m only bringing that up because when I mention the excellent ball striker who can’t make a putt , it’s always dismissed as “ an outlier “ or “ hogwash , everybody has off putting days “.

    My point is. If you take the run of the mill scratch player who can do most things well. Or decently. Why is a fairway hit worth more than a putt made ?

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  • garytgaryt Members Posts: 319 ✭✭✭✭

    @jvincent said:

    @bladehunter said:

    If you've got a 36-handicap long game then you can hone your short game to a razor's edge and you'll be a 30 handicap at best.

    Same could be said if you have a great long game and a 36 hdcp's short game. This whole argument on both sides seems ridiculous to me. You obviously have to be competent in all aspects of the game. Now let's say your a solid long game guy who also has a solid short game. Improving which aspect of your game will result in lower scores from there.?

  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,674 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @garyt said:

    @jvincent said:

    @bladehunter said:

    If you've got a 36-handicap long game then you can hone your short game to a razor's edge and you'll be a 30 handicap at best.

    Same could be said if you have a great long game and a 36 hdcp's short game. This whole argument on both sides seems ridiculous to me. You obviously have to be competent in all aspects of the game. Now let's say your a solid long game guy who also has a solid short game. Improving which aspect of your game will result in lower scores from there.?

    Easy answer Course management, most of the time when your physical skill is solid.... its the mental skill that is the culprit. Stress... expectations, ego, etc.... always a catalyst for poor scoring. The expected Birdie that turned into a par, then the forced need to try and make up for it is over playing a hole and then the endless cycle.....

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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I actually think it's the other way around, I'm talking about the scenarios you are most likely to encounter on the course for a broad spectrum of players who are trying to get better. Statistically speaking, the putting skill gap between a pro/scratch golfer/80s golfer is much smaller than the ball striking skill gap. Are there outliers? Absolutely, so you'd have to actually collect the data and assess your own game and see if you really are one of those rare cases. In which case your time would be best spent on the putting green. I think the main point is a lot of folks on here like to take rare or anecdotal) cases and then apply them to a wide swath of golfers as sound advice. The SG method essentially takes all of that conjecture and speculation out of the equation.

    As for the question of a missed fairway vs a missed putt, those 2 singular instances aren't enough to say which is more or less important, which is why fairways hit and putts per round are not as heavily emphasized as they used to be. If you did miss the fairway, how far you hit it and how big of a miss it was factors into the equation. There is a big difference between a 285 yard drive in the first cut and a 250 yard drive in the heavy rough, behind a tree, in a hazard etc where your chances of reaching the green in regulation drop dramatically. Conversely, if you missed a bunch of birdie putts (or par saves), how long the putt matters as well. Missing 3 or 4 20 ft birdies honestly is expected given even the pros will typically miss that many, missing a bunch of 4-8 footers or 3-putting from 20ft is a different story. If you collect the SG data, you can find out exactly how many strokes you are gaining (or losing) for each scenario. I think in general, there are bands of handicaps that are dictated largely by ball striking (ie 0-5, 5-10, 10-15, etc), short game/putting largely dictates where in that band you settle.

  • jvincentjvincent Members Posts: 807 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @garyt said:

    @jvincent said:

    @bladehunter said:

    If you've got a 36-handicap long game then you can hone your short game to a razor's edge and you'll be a 30 handicap at best.

    Same could be said if you have a great long game and a 36 hdcp's short game. This whole argument on both sides seems ridiculous to me. You obviously have to be competent in all aspects of the game. Now let's say your a solid long game guy who also has a solid short game. Improving which aspect of your game will result in lower scores from there.?

    When I was playing to a 6 my big problem was GIR.

    My driving was pretty good, not long but pretty much always in play and I have a very good short game. But I was averaging about 5-6 GIR because of inconsistent iron play. Short game was what kept me at a 6.

    Ironically in trying to fix my iron consistency I have screwed up my driver game completely last year. I'm only just now starting to get it back. Golf is hard.

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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,674 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @jvincent said:

    @garyt said:

    @jvincent said:

    @bladehunter said:

    If you've got a 36-handicap long game then you can hone your short game to a razor's edge and you'll be a 30 handicap at best.

    Same could be said if you have a great long game and a 36 hdcp's short game. This whole argument on both sides seems ridiculous to me. You obviously have to be competent in all aspects of the game. Now let's say your a solid long game guy who also has a solid short game. Improving which aspect of your game will result in lower scores from there.?

    When I was playing to a 6 my big problem was GIR.

    My driving was pretty good, not long but pretty much always in play and I have a very good short game. But I was averaging about 5-6 GIR because of inconsistent iron play. Short game was what kept me at a 6.

    Ironically in trying to fix my iron consistency I have screwed up my driver game completely last year. I'm only just now starting to get it back. Golf is hard.

    Hey @jvincent so here is a heart to heart questions..... I have question this my self and ignored it....

    I had a terrible driver... struggled but my GIR are pretty high 8-10 the lowest I logged GHIN was 7 and now play about a 12 ish.

    Was it just my driver that was really bad, or was my whole swing an actual mess, Translated worse to my driver and just managed to compensate my irons to get GIR and score to keep my blow ups minimal.

    I say this as the swing across the board should be sound, LW to Driver, (generically speaking) the timing to the misses... Yet my Driver was WILD and my Irons didnt seem that wild. The fact that you stated you fixed your irons then the driver went bad, meant that there is STILL something wrong with your over all swing.

    This was my first step. I thought I get get past the 7 ghin barrier, but it was just masked with halfway decent putting and short game improvements, YET my over all game could NOT go any further that what it was without an honest revamp.

    Still work on it to promote consistency and its slowly coming around its hard work and a big ego punch....

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,898 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Krt22 said:
    I actually think it's the other way around, I'm talking about the scenarios you are most likely to encounter on the course for a broad spectrum of players who are trying to get better. Statistically speaking, the putting skill gap between a pro/scratch golfer/80s golfer is much smaller than the ball striking skill gap. Are there outliers? Absolutely, so you'd have to actually collect the data and assess your own game and see if you really are one of those rare cases. In which case your time would be best spent on the putting green. I think the main point is a lot of folks on here like to take rare or anecdotal) cases and then apply them to a wide swath of golfers as sound advice. The SG method essentially takes all of that conjecture and speculation out of the equation.

    As for the question of a missed fairway vs a missed putt, those 2 singular instances aren't enough to say which is more or less important, which is why fairways hit and putts per round are not as heavily emphasized as they used to be. If you did miss the fairway, how far you hit it and how big of a miss it was factors into the equation. There is a big difference between a 285 yard drive in the first cut and a 250 yard drive in the heavy rough, behind a tree, in a hazard etc where your chances of reaching the green in regulation drop dramatically. Conversely, if you missed a bunch of birdie putts (or par saves), how long the putt matters as well. Missing 3 or 4 20 ft birdies honestly is expected given even the pros will typically miss that many, missing a bunch of 4-8 footers or 3-putting from 20ft is a different story. If you collect the SG data, you can find out exactly how many strokes you are gaining (or losing) for each scenario. I think in general, there are bands of handicaps that are dictated largely by ball striking (ie 0-5, 5-10, 10-15, etc), short game/putting largely dictates where in that band you settle.

    All extremely reasonable.

    But. That’s a far cry from the absolutes of “ the myth of shortgame being king is dead “ And that’s all ive ever been saying.

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  • jvincentjvincent Members Posts: 807 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 2:19am #75

    @Exactice808 said:

    @jvincent said:

    @garyt said:

    @jvincent said:

    @bladehunter said:

    If you've got a 36-handicap long game then you can hone your short game to a razor's edge and you'll be a 30 handicap at best.

    Same could be said if you have a great long game and a 36 hdcp's short game. This whole argument on both sides seems ridiculous to me. You obviously have to be competent in all aspects of the game. Now let's say your a solid long game guy who also has a solid short game. Improving which aspect of your game will result in lower scores from there.?

    When I was playing to a 6 my big problem was GIR.

    My driving was pretty good, not long but pretty much always in play and I have a very good short game. But I was averaging about 5-6 GIR because of inconsistent iron play. Short game was what kept me at a 6.

    Ironically in trying to fix my iron consistency I have screwed up my driver game completely last year. I'm only just now starting to get it back. Golf is hard.

    Hey @jvincent so here is a heart to heart questions..... I have question this my self and ignored it....

    I had a terrible driver... struggled but my GIR are pretty high 8-10 the lowest I logged GHIN was 7 and now play about a 12 ish.

    Was it just my driver that was really bad, or was my whole swing an actual mess, Translated worse to my driver and just managed to compensate my irons to get GIR and score to keep my blow ups minimal.

    I say this as the swing across the board should be sound, LW to Driver, (generically speaking) the timing to the misses... Yet my Driver was WILD and my Irons didnt seem that wild. The fact that you stated you fixed your irons then the driver went bad, meant that there is STILL something wrong with your over all swing.

    This was my first step. I thought I get get past the 7 ghin barrier, but it was just masked with halfway decent putting and short game improvements, YET my over all game could NOT go any further that what it was without an honest revamp.

    Still work on it to promote consistency and its slowly coming around its hard work and a big ego punch....

    Valid question.

    My old swing was VERY flat. I came from the inside and played a pretty strong draw with every club. It's a great swing for driver. Terrible for irons. Way too many cold tops and terrible fat shots if my timing was off.

    I worked to get my swing plane more upright and it changed my path from in-to-out to out-to-in. My iron strike consistency has definitely gone up, but it took me a year to figure out that trying to hit a draw with driver with an out-to-in path is not a recipe for success.

    Now that I'm committed to play a fade/cut the driver is mostly better but it's not quite as consistent as it used to be.

    In general my fade path isn't quite as consistent as I used to be, but it's coming.

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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @Krt22 said:
    I actually think it's the other way around, I'm talking about the scenarios you are most likely to encounter on the course for a broad spectrum of players who are trying to get better. Statistically speaking, the putting skill gap between a pro/scratch golfer/80s golfer is much smaller than the ball striking skill gap. Are there outliers? Absolutely, so you'd have to actually collect the data and assess your own game and see if you really are one of those rare cases. In which case your time would be best spent on the putting green. I think the main point is a lot of folks on here like to take rare or anecdotal) cases and then apply them to a wide swath of golfers as sound advice. The SG method essentially takes all of that conjecture and speculation out of the equation.

    As for the question of a missed fairway vs a missed putt, those 2 singular instances aren't enough to say which is more or less important, which is why fairways hit and putts per round are not as heavily emphasized as they used to be. If you did miss the fairway, how far you hit it and how big of a miss it was factors into the equation. There is a big difference between a 285 yard drive in the first cut and a 250 yard drive in the heavy rough, behind a tree, in a hazard etc where your chances of reaching the green in regulation drop dramatically. Conversely, if you missed a bunch of birdie putts (or par saves), how long the putt matters as well. Missing 3 or 4 20 ft birdies honestly is expected given even the pros will typically miss that many, missing a bunch of 4-8 footers or 3-putting from 20ft is a different story. If you collect the SG data, you can find out exactly how many strokes you are gaining (or losing) for each scenario. I think in general, there are bands of handicaps that are dictated largely by ball striking (ie 0-5, 5-10, 10-15, etc), short game/putting largely dictates where in that band you settle.

    All extremely reasonable.

    But. That’s a far cry from the absolutes of “ the myth of shortgame being king is dead “ And that’s all ive ever been saying.

    I'd say the SG folks have the same stance, not that short game isn't important, it just isn't important as some folks say it is (ie I'd be scratch if I had a decent short game type folks). But with the SG approach you can put a number on it, you can quantify for each golfer just how important it is and thus use that data to focus your practice time such that you can see the greatest bang for the buck. For a majority of golfers, it's actually low hanging fruit (according to the statistical data), but of course you'd want to gather this data and verify that is the case for yourself before writing it off completely and pounding drivers all day.

    On that note, you (and the OP) said you spend a ton of time on 100-125ish and in. I'd say 50-125 in is more full swing work than short game. In reality those are just shorter/abbreviated full swings and are problematic for some mid/high index players since they then have less time to add in the compensations needed to mask their flaws. So investing a lot of time in that range typically helps your game as a whole

  • andrueandrue Members Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Stay away from range..unless you have something specific you want to work on. I don't think there's much value for most people in just going to the range because it's there. However if there's a particular aspect of your game that you are working on then the range could be the place for it. For instance last month I spent two sessions on the range with my driver and some foot spray. That was definitely time well spent - I learned a great deal about how I was striking the ball (high on the face toward the heel) and worked out that addressing the ball so that it was inline with the toe of my driver meant I struck it in the middle of the face with a resulting improvement in ball flight.

    There might also be some value in firing through a small basket prior to a competition round.

    But my experience of being a regular 'driving range junkie' is that doesn't help my game and could possibly make it worse. If someone has the discipline to go through a specific routine every time they visit the range and analyses every shot carefully then it would be more useful. But I think most amateurs just go to the range when they have some free time but not enough for a round of golf and just fire their way through a basket almost randomly. I don't think that's very useful.

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  • garytgaryt Members Posts: 319 ✭✭✭✭

    @Exactice808 said:

    @garyt said:

    @jvincent said:

    @bladehunter said:

    If you've got a 36-handicap long game then you can hone your short game to a razor's edge and you'll be a 30 handicap at best.

    Same could be said if you have a great long game and a 36 hdcp's short game. This whole argument on both sides seems ridiculous to me. You obviously have to be competent in all aspects of the game. Now let's say your a solid long game guy who also has a solid short game. Improving which aspect of your game will result in lower scores from there.?

    Easy answer Course management, most of the time when your physical skill is solid.... its the mental skill that is the culprit. Stress... expectations, ego, etc.... always a catalyst for poor scoring. The expected Birdie that turned into a par, then the forced need to try and make up for it is over playing a hole and then the endless cycle.....

    Yea, but I meant out of the two listed, long game or short game. Then I think we have a conversation. But a lot of posts are saying if you are completely awful at one part of the game vs. being acceptable at the other. Of course if you hit every other drive OB you can't score but by the same token if you hit every drive down the middle but can't putt or skull every chip over the green back and forth a few times you can't score either.

  • andrueandrue Members Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @garyt said:

    @Exactice808 said:

    @garyt said:

    @jvincent said:

    @bladehunter said:

    If you've got a 36-handicap long game then you can hone your short game to a razor's edge and you'll be a 30 handicap at best.

    Same could be said if you have a great long game and a 36 hdcp's short game. This whole argument on both sides seems ridiculous to me. You obviously have to be competent in all aspects of the game. Now let's say your a solid long game guy who also has a solid short game. Improving which aspect of your game will result in lower scores from there.?

    Easy answer Course management, most of the time when your physical skill is solid.... its the mental skill that is the culprit. Stress... expectations, ego, etc.... always a catalyst for poor scoring. The expected Birdie that turned into a par, then the forced need to try and make up for it is over playing a hole and then the endless cycle.....

    Yea, but I meant out of the two listed, long game or short game. Then I think we have a conversation. But a lot of posts are saying if you are completely awful at one part of the game vs. being acceptable at the other. Of course if you hit every other drive OB you can't score but by the same token if you hit every drive down the middle but can't putt or skull every chip over the green back and forth a few times you can't score either.

    The way I look at it is the nearer you are to the hole the harder it is to make up for a poor shot. When you're on the tee a poor shot might just mean taking a longer club for your approach. So you intended a 220 yard drive and a 130 yard approach. You fluff your drive a bit and now you're 160 yards from the hole. It's not ideal but if you can pull off a 160 yard approach then your fluffed driver is irrelevant.

    You could fluff a 130 yard approach (well, I could :-/ ) but follow it with a good chip that leaves your ball a foot from the hole and it doesn't really matter.

    But fluff a putt..and you stay fluffed.

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  • andrueandrue Members Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @North Butte said:
    When the ratio of practice to playing time starts approaching or exceeding one-to-one you're entering into the realm of self improvement rather than recreation. It's entirely possible to enjoy playing golf without feeling the need to excel at it. If we tell every beginner to forget about playing much until he's "dug it out of the dirt" for 10,000 hours as if it were playing the violin, we'll probably lose a lot of beginner golfers!

    Absolutely and with the state of golf what it is today we should embrace that ethos. I'm pretty much in that camp. Of course I want a low score and I do put effort into improving but what I want most of all us is a few hours in pleasant surroundings with pleasant people and the ball flying off my club head a reasonable distance without getting into serious trouble too often.

    I've often said that I'd rather have a bad score where every shot at least launched nicely than a good score where half my shots were worm burners or other dross. For me the pleasure of golf is in the doing, not the scoring.

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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @andrue said:

    @garyt said:
    Yea, but I meant out of the two listed, long game or short game. Then I think we have a conversation. But a lot of posts are saying if you are completely awful at one part of the game vs. being acceptable at the other. Of course if you hit every other drive OB you can't score but by the same token if you hit every drive down the middle but can't putt or skull every chip over the green back and forth a few times you can't score either.

    The way I look at it is the nearer you are to the hole the harder it is to make up for a poor shot. When you're on the tee a poor shot might just mean taking a longer club for your approach. So you intended a 220 yard drive and a 130 yard approach. You fluff your drive a bit and now you're 160 yards from the hole. It's not ideal but if you can pull off a 160 yard approach then your fluffed driver is irrelevant.

    You could fluff a 130 yard approach (well, I could :-/ ) but follow it with a good chip that leaves your ball a foot from the hole and it doesn't really matter.

    But fluff a putt..and you stay fluffed.

    The difficulty with the Strokes Gained concept is that it requires us to think of fractions of a stroke. The difference between a good drive and a mediocre one might be only 0.3 strokes. If you're 160 yards out instead of 130, your average score from that point to the hole might be 3.4 instead of 3.1, so the longer drive has gained you 0.3 strokes as compared to the shorter one. If you play 12 par-4 holes that way, you're likely to be 4 strokes better by hitting longer drives. Yes that is really over-simplifying it, but that's the idea. The differences only show up over the course of multiple holes, or multiple rounds.

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @davep043 said:

    @andrue said:

    @garyt said:
    Yea, but I meant out of the two listed, long game or short game. Then I think we have a conversation. But a lot of posts are saying if you are completely awful at one part of the game vs. being acceptable at the other. Of course if you hit every other drive OB you can't score but by the same token if you hit every drive down the middle but can't putt or skull every chip over the green back and forth a few times you can't score either.

    The way I look at it is the nearer you are to the hole the harder it is to make up for a poor shot. When you're on the tee a poor shot might just mean taking a longer club for your approach. So you intended a 220 yard drive and a 130 yard approach. You fluff your drive a bit and now you're 160 yards from the hole. It's not ideal but if you can pull off a 160 yard approach then your fluffed driver is irrelevant.

    You could fluff a 130 yard approach (well, I could :-/ ) but follow it with a good chip that leaves your ball a foot from the hole and it doesn't really matter.

    But fluff a putt..and you stay fluffed.

    The difficulty with the Strokes Gained concept is that it requires us to think of fractions of a stroke. The difference between a good drive and a mediocre one might be only 0.3 strokes. If you're 160 yards out instead of 130, your average score from that point to the hole might be 3.4 instead of 3.1, so the longer drive has gained you 0.3 strokes as compared to the shorter one. If you play 12 par-4 holes that way, you're likely to be 4 strokes better by hitting longer drives. Yes that is really over-simplifying it, but that's the idea. The differences only show up over the course of multiple holes, or multiple rounds.

    There's a whole branch of psychology and economics that deals with the human tendency to ignore the accumulation of tiny fractional benefits or losses and focus instead on less-likely big chunks of loss or benefit.

    For instance people will go to great lengths to protect their children from the generally very remote possibility of "stranger danger" but they don't think twice about the very real accumulation of risk from the sum total of all the times their kids ride in the car with them. But in the big picture, far more children are harmed by traffic accidents than by being abducted at random by a psychopath.

    Most golfers want to identify a few discrete events that are "costing them strokes". When in reality, it's easy to accumulate four or five or even more strokes in a round just from a tenth of a stroke here, half a stroke there from shots that didn't look absolutely gut-wrenchingly awful when you hit them. They just weren't quite good enough and there were a bunch of them.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,898 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Sounds like loads of “ ifs and butts “ to me. I’d go mad if I worried about .3 of a stroke on every tee ball. Seems like building paper tigers to slay to me. Can we really quantify much less hope to control bounces on the fairway or rough ?

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  • Warrior42111Warrior42111 FloridaMembers Posts: 85 ✭✭✭

    But fluff a putt..and you stay fluffed.

    I wish I could stay fluffed, would help in the dating life :D

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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:
    Sounds like loads of “ ifs and butts “ to me. I’d go mad if I worried about .3 of a stroke on every tee ball. Seems like building paper tigers to slay to me. Can we really quantify much less hope to control bounces on the fairway or rough ?

    Its not something to worry about while you're playing, but this type of analysis can point a player to the true weaknesses in his game. Personally, I'm too lazy to keep the right kind of data. On the other hand, there are times when I blame a three-putt on my tee shot, not on my putting.

  • Higgs66Higgs66 Members Posts: 50 ✭✭

    Yeah, you almost never see pros on the range..

  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 5:14pm #87

    @bladehunter said:
    Sounds like loads of “ ifs and butts “ to me. I’d go mad if I worried about .3 of a stroke on every tee ball. Seems like building paper tigers to slay to me. Can we really quantify much less hope to control bounces on the fairway or rough ?

    It sounds like it on the surface, bit its actually quite the opposite. Instead a way to quantify just how important each shot is using data collected from real golfers vs relying on conjecture and opinion. The intent isn't to think about the statistics at the micro level, but instead use the statistics to understand what is most important to scoring at the macro level such that you can focus on what is most important for your game. You seem focused on the impact of singular events when the methodology as a whole relies on looking at the sum of all those singular events. Bad breaks happen and become statistically insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but bad shots that occur over and over can easily be quantified. I think if you read the book, a lot of your questions (and doubts) would be answered.

  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,924 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I hope readers see the OP's personal rant observations as what they are and not pay too much attention. Rants are fun to read but are a tell as well. Generally, I differ with many of the OP's conclusions surrounding golf.

    I am 5'10, 210lbs, x-football player, a lifelong jock and was into extreme activities before taking up golf at 40. I listened to a few friends and a family member, before buying three golf instruction books and proceeded to teach myself golf. At my peak was hitting 1400+ balls a week. Soon thereafter I took one set of five lessons to ensure my mechanics were on track and in under five years was high single-digit while running a national company. A few years later I reached low-single-digit.

    My point in sharing that is part of my background parallels the Rant. Yes, there is a lot of misinformation out there but it's because people, their athletic ability, golf skills, and perceptions differ. There's an instructor for everyone. A happy life, success, and accomplishments in golf are all about choosing the right people to listen to and maybe more important, speaking less. There is plenty of positive information and good people out there too, you just have to have the patience and ability to choose right, then "listen, follow and execute" the guidance. A great many people lack those attributes. Thank God for those differences though. Having unreasonable expectations leads to unmet expectations or getting in your own way of moving forward.

    And I can't overlook when a mid or high cap self-evaluates and says "X" is the only thing that separates him from reaching single-digit... LOL Yeah, right. Over forty years I have seen plenty of employees self-evaluate too. They miss so much, it's no wonder they remain in the same spot. Over the years I have played with plenty of good golfers as well as mid and high caps and see the mistakes of the ladder two-segments; they are NOT the same mistakes as I make when finishing 2 over last weekend. This is not a rant, just the perception of one man that loves the game and enjoys most of the people he's encountered on the golf course.

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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,430 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    A glaring example would be a short but narrow dogleg Par 5 that I used to play something like 6-iron, 8-iron, 8-iron. After being challenged by one of my more skilled and experienced golf mentors to go ahead and hit driver off that tee, I found that hitting driver over time both lowered (slightly) my average score on the hole and increased substantially the amount of fun I had playing it. Turned out that I was wasting "fractions of a stroke" every time I slightly mishit one of those iron shots. But they didn't seem nearly as bad as the occasional lost ball off the tee with the driver (of course I also occasionally lost balls with truly awful iron shots, the hole was narrow and surrounded by trouble from tee to green).

    It's always tempting to think "course management" comes down to avoid the big number at all costs. It's that "all costs" that ends up making us waste strokes. Yes it's best to avoid the big number. But not if your "management" strategy involves costing yourself lots of little numbers.

    Same with focusing on "eliminating three-putts" rather than "putting better" as a goal. If you really want to focus on eliminating three-putts the you're going to start trying to avoid any situations that leave you 50 feet from the hole. You'll talk yourself into shooting at sucker pins from bad angles or lies rather than taking your medicine and just doing your best with a putt from the open side of the green to that tucked pin.

    Every single shot in golf falls on a continuum. It's not either "great shot" or "awful shot". There are many shades of gray in between. Deciding that eliminating "awful shots" is the only thing that matters is as foolish as deciding that only trying to hit "great shots" matters.

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  • BarfolomewBarfolomew #worstWRXer Members Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I can be a little off with driver and still score well sometimes..... but if I'm a little off with putter its way worse.

    I can miss hit driver by 50 feet and still be in fairway. If I miss my start line by 1/4 inch on a 4 foot putt you might miss hole by 6 inches.

    It's not to discredit the importance or being a great driver... I lean on driver to play par golf but I can scramble my a$$ off as there are still shots available to "makeup" for the bad drive but when you struggle with putter there are ZERO shots available to "makeup" for bad putting.

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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 7:51pm #91

    @Barfolomew said:
    I can be a little off with driver and still score well sometimes..... but if I'm a little off with putter its way worse.

    I can miss hit driver by 50 feet and still be in fairway. If I miss my start line by 1/4 inch on a 4 foot putt you might miss hole by 6 inches.

    It's not to discredit the importance or being a great driver... I lean on driver to play par golf but I can scramble my a$$ off as there are still shots available to "makeup" for the bad drive but when you struggle with putter there are ZERO shots available to "makeup" for bad putting.

    I suggest you read the book, no point in saying the same thing over and over without actually taking the time to see what exactly it is you are arguing against. Your anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. Again, the outcome of each individual shot is less important than the outcome of the sum of all those shots over time. Your index isn't dictated by a single shot or even a single round, most tournaments are not dictated by a single shot or even a single round either. Bad shots, bad putts, bad breaks etc all happen, it's how often they happen is what matters when it comes down to figuring out what your strengths and weaknesses are. If you consistently miss 4 foot putts, you are likely a terrible putter. If your dispersion with a driver is consistently within 50 feet, you are likely a very good driver of the ball. How far you are from the hole matters in terms of the magnitude of your miss, which is exactly what SG measures.

    Post edited by Krt22 on

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