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Kuchar in the bunker

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  • MaximilianMaximilian Members Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I think Kuchar is quickly turning into the grumpy old guy that simply doesn't give a **** anymore. In 2020 he'll stop using the rear view mirror and begin coughing in other players backswings.

  • RangeballzRangeballz Members Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Isn't any grain of sand, by definition, a "loose" impediment?

  • HoosierMizunoHoosierMizuno Members Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 10, 2019 1:09pm #64

    i think what we saw from kuchar is a reason why usga will never change the rules to allow a player to move the ball out of a fairway divot. its impossible to write the rule that is specific enough that players wouldn't be able to take advantage of it. whats a divot, whats a grown in divot or old'ish' divot, etc etc. i think sometimes it seems like certain rules could easily be changed, but then actaully rewriting it creates more confusion than it clears up.

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  • DON SVODON SVO Hacker in progress... Lefty Boomers Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @HoosierMizuno said:
    i think what we saw from kuchar is a reason why usga will never change the rules to allow a player to move the ball out of a fairway divot. its impossible to write the rule that is specific enough that players wouldn't be able to take advantage of it. whats a divot, whats a grown in divot or old'ish' divot, etc etc. i think sometimes it seems like certain rules could easily be changed, but then actaully rewriting it creates more confusion than it clears up.

    I agree, it's essentially what is referred to as The Cobra Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect

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  • musclefrontmusclefront Members Posts: 287 ✭✭✭✭

    @Llortamaisey said:
    It reminds me of when guys improve their lie on the tee box by using their foot to step and press down behind the ball. The visual of such action looks terrible, and it certainly seems like a penalty, it would be any other place on the course, but the rules allow you to improve your lie in certain situations. Ultimately, it’s much ado about nothing. I’m fine with it.

    Tee box isn’t a penalty area. Not even remotely the same at all

  • macnewmamacnewma Members Posts: 114 ✭✭✭

    I don't care for it. Not so much specifically because of whether it was technically within the rules, but the fact that it was certainly not within the spirit of the rules.

    Think of it in these terms. You, an aspiring manager and two co-workers are guests at your company's CEO's exclusive country club for some tournament. The CEO finds himself in a waste area, looks over to you and says, "These are loose impediments, right?". The CEO clearly thinks so and definitely wants you to agree. Are you and your buddies going to stand in the way of that?

    The problem that I see on tour is with the player and rule's official interaction. The RO should be a guide, not a judge. When some volunteer is standing next to some hugely famous superstar playing for millions, that official is quite likely going to side with the player. It would be a very intimidating position.

    Kuchar, and many other players are using ROs as cover for what they know are really questionable judgments. We know what Kuchar did was BS. He knows it. The guys on TV know it. But the RO, under the pressure of the moment went with it, so Kuchar has cover.

    The RO should provide guidance and rule book information. The player and the player's partner(s) should then make the final determination. Golf should be self-policed until the players can't figure out a ruling. If there is a larger a dispute like with DJ at the US Open, it could then go to the overall tournament officials.

    Is this a new phenomenon? That is hard to say. Maybe this went on in the days of Nicklaus and Palmer but we didn't see it.

    When I play in a match, if it is a gray area, I leave it up to my opponent. I will say, "I think it is a gray area, you need to be comfortable with the call." If I say, I honestly don't know the ruling, we then get guidance from the club pro or official, but it is still up to the player.

  • macnewmamacnewma Members Posts: 114 ✭✭✭

    @musclefront said:

    @Llortamaisey said:
    It reminds me of when guys improve their lie on the tee box by using their foot to step and press down behind the ball. The visual of such action looks terrible, and it certainly seems like a penalty, it would be any other place on the course, but the rules allow you to improve your lie in certain situations. Ultimately, it’s much ado about nothing. I’m fine with it.

    Tee box isn’t a penalty area. Not even remotely the same at all

    Yep, the tee box is an area where you can specifically improve your lie. The tee itself does that. A player can stomp, move the grain of the grass etc.

  • ray9898ray9898 Members Posts: 841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Man....I love how Kuch just gets under the skin of the pompous ones.

  • golfandfishinggolfandfishing Members Posts: 3,667 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    ??? How do you feel about players using a tee on the tee box? You can’t do that anywhere else either. What about teeing it up on the right side of the box then picking it up and moving to the left side for a better angle? Can’t do that anywhere else either, so double whammy?

    @Llortamaisey said:
    It reminds me of when guys improve their lie on the tee box by using their foot to step and press down behind the ball. The visual of such action looks terrible, and it certainly seems like a penalty, it would be any other place on the course, but the rules allow you to improve your lie in certain situations. Ultimately, it’s much ado about nothing. I’m fine with it.

  • howellhandmadehowellhandmade Members Posts: 823 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DON SVO said:

    @HoosierMizuno said:
    i think what we saw from kuchar is a reason why usga will never change the rules to allow a player to move the ball out of a fairway divot. its impossible to write the rule that is specific enough that players wouldn't be able to take advantage of it. whats a divot, whats a grown in divot or old'ish' divot, etc etc. i think sometimes it seems like certain rules could easily be changed, but then actaully rewriting it creates more confusion than it clears up.

    I agree, it's essentially what is referred to as The Cobra Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect

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  • chrisgilly09chrisgilly09 Members Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Would it be nice if players didn’t bend the rules a bit when many people in the field would play it as it lies, yes. But it’s kuchars right if he’s nimble enough to not move his ball, and with an official there we can’t really do anything about it unfortunately. Really just wanted to comment on this thread because I know that RO in Bouldergate was never seen on the PGA Tour again 😂 Shows what the powers that be felt about that decision

  • PhilomathesqPhilomathesq Legal EagleMembers Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 10, 2019 5:45pm #73

    @Hawkeye77 said:

    @gvogel said:
    I'm burning my Skechers.

    No way - Kuchar's Skechers buyers are too cheap to waste them.

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  • lowheellowheel LOWHEEL Members Posts: 6,490 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @JohnnyCashForever said:
    It doesn't really pass the eyeball test, does it?

    If Kuch wants to get hyper-technical with the rules and remove very small rocks that are the size of individual grains of sand, then what prevents the rules committee from imposing a penalty on him if he "accidentally" removes actual grains of sand in the process and improves his lie?

    Rory literally did the same thing a few weeks back.

  • PhilomathesqPhilomathesq Legal EagleMembers Posts: 291 ✭✭✭✭

    @lowheel said:

    @JohnnyCashForever said:
    It doesn't really pass the eyeball test, does it?

    If Kuch wants to get hyper-technical with the rules and remove very small rocks that are the size of individual grains of sand, then what prevents the rules committee from imposing a penalty on him if he "accidentally" removes actual grains of sand in the process and improves his lie?

    Rory literally did the same thing a few weeks back.

    That situation was a horse of a different color. Rory attempted to remove what he thought was a stone from behind his ball in the bunker. When he went to grab it, it turned out it was just a lump of wet sand and it disintegrated. The lie of the ball was not affected.

    I'm no Rory fan boy, but that situation and what Kuchar did are very different. Also, I believe Rory self-reported right after the sand disintegrated.

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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members Posts: 11,369 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    How can anybody even fake outrage when faced with a Tour player taking advantage of every last iota of advantage he can finagle out of the Rules of Golf. It's what these guys do. They will at least ask for literally anything under the sun. And if it's an advantage, even a minuscule one, and it doesn't involve a penalty stroke or DQ they will do it every time.

    If the Rules don't want to be gamed like this, they ought to be better written.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,888 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

    I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

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  • straightshot7straightshot7 Members Posts: 3,233 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 10, 2019 8:15pm #78

    @bladehunter said:

    I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

    I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

    What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

    Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

    "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

    I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

    But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

    Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

  • dlygrissedlygrisse KansasMembers Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    This kind of garbage, ( it's a horrible look at best) goes against the spirit of the game in my opinion. Classic example of over legislation by ruling bodies that create these gray areas. The road to **** is always paved with good intentions.............
    Kuchar didn't violate any rules I suppose, but if they just stuck with "play the ball as it lies" and had not created all these exceptions for people to take advantage of, then it wouldn't be an issue.

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  • geno4952geno4952 Members Posts: 122 ✭✭✭

    @Vindog said:
    Just a few lines down from your topic is this one.

    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1790940/kuchar-in-the-bunker#latest

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  • BarfolomewBarfolomew #worstWRXer Members Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    ...... and the lie wasn't that bad.... hit away already

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,888 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @straightshot7 said:
    @bladehunter said:

    I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

    I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

    What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

    Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

    "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

    I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

    But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

    Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

    Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loose impediments and movable obstructions are NOT part of the lie of the ball”.

    Come on ^ ? Lol. That was tooo easy.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,888 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @dlygrisse said:
    This kind of garbage, ( it's a horrible look at best) goes against the spirit of the game in my opinion. Classic example of over legislation by ruling bodies that create these gray areas. The road to **** is always paved with good intentions.............
    Kuchar didn't violate any rules I suppose, but if they just stuck with "play the ball as it lies" and had not created all these exceptions for people to take advantage of, then it wouldn't be an issue.

    Make no mistake ...this ^ is my point and stance. The ruling bodies allow this. It’s them who are to blame.

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  • straightshot7straightshot7 Members Posts: 3,233 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 12:18am #84

    @bladehunter said:

    @straightshot7 said:
    @bladehunter said:

    I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

    I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

    What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

    Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

    "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

    I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

    But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

    Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

    Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loose impediments and movable obstructions are NOT part of the lie of the ball”.

    Come on ^ ? Lol. That was tooo easy.

    Sigh. I was afraid you might say that...come on man . . . Did you even read my entire post? Or are you just looking for a way to be right, even though you're not?

    I already addressed that in what I said.

    That doesn't change the fact that you CAN change your lie by moving all kinds of things around your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

    Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

    You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to CanadaMembers Posts: 12,577 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Kuch repeatedly reveals his true colors

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,888 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @straightshot7 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @straightshot7 said:
    @bladehunter said:

    I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

    I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

    What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

    Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

    "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

    I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

    But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

    Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

    Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loose impediments and movable obstructions are NOT part of the lie of the ball”.

    Come on ^ ? Lol. That was tooo easy.

    Sigh. I was afraid you might say that...come on man . . . Did you even read my entire post? Or are you just looking for a way to be right, even though you're not?

    I already addressed that in what I said.

    That doesn't change the fact that you CAN change your lie by moving all kinds of things around your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

    Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

    You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

    I’m not being purposefully obtuse at all. I really don’t get it. Lol. What did he move that isn’t a loose impediment? Pebbles are. Even if sand is attached , when outside of a sand trap. You don’t have to clean the pebbles and put the sand back.

    We absolutely agree on the bad look. I just think the rules are to blame for allowing it to be done. And obviously the official agrees or he’d have been penalized.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,888 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @straightshot7 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @straightshot7 said:
    @bladehunter said:

    I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

    I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

    What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

    Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

    "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

    I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

    But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

    Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

    Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loose impediments and movable obstructions are NOT part of the lie of the ball”.

    Come on ^ ? Lol. That was tooo easy.

    Sigh. I was afraid you might say that...come on man . . . Did you even read my entire post? Or are you just looking for a way to be right, even though you're not?

    I already addressed that in what I said.

    That doesn't change the fact that you CAN change your lie by moving all kinds of things around your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

    Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

    You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

    No I’m not okay with patting down grass behind the ball. But most players do it. Many at least. Gary player famously did. As did Seve. It’s not against the rules technically. Not if done like Seve . “ is it the 3 wood or the 5. 3 or 5 ......no no no. I think 3 iron now “. As he went back and forth from 3 wood to 5 until the back of the ball is exposed for the 3 iron.

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  • straightshot7straightshot7 Members Posts: 3,233 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @straightshot7 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @straightshot7 said:
    @bladehunter said:

    I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

    I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

    What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

    Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

    "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

    I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

    But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

    Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

    Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loose impediments and movable obstructions are NOT part of the lie of the ball”.

    Come on ^ ? Lol. That was tooo easy.

    Sigh. I was afraid you might say that...come on man . . . Did you even read my entire post? Or are you just looking for a way to be right, even though you're not?

    I already addressed that in what I said.

    That doesn't change the fact that you CAN change your lie by moving all kinds of things around your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

    Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

    You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

    I’m not being purposefully obtuse at all. I really don’t get it. Lol. What did he move that isn’t a loose impediment? Pebbles are. Even if sand is attached , when outside of a sand trap. You don’t have to clean the pebbles and put the sand back.

    We absolutely agree on the bad look. I just think the rules are to blame for allowing it to be done. And obviously the official agrees or he’d have been penalized.

    Your post said: "I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up."

    Can you see how your description of what constitutes the lie changing is dead wrong when compared to the actual definition in the rules?

    That's all I was trying to explain to you. That you certainly can change your lie and improve your lie by moving the things around the ball. It's not just based on whether the ball moves.

  • bscinstnctbscinstnct Members Posts: 27,294 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,888 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @straightshot7 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @straightshot7 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @straightshot7 said:
    @bladehunter said:

    I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

    I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

    What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

    Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

    "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

    I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

    But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

    Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

    Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loose impediments and movable obstructions are NOT part of the lie of the ball”.

    Come on ^ ? Lol. That was tooo easy.

    Sigh. I was afraid you might say that...come on man . . . Did you even read my entire post? Or are you just looking for a way to be right, even though you're not?

    I already addressed that in what I said.

    That doesn't change the fact that you CAN change your lie by moving all kinds of things around your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

    Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

    You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

    I’m not being purposefully obtuse at all. I really don’t get it. Lol. What did he move that isn’t a loose impediment? Pebbles are. Even if sand is attached , when outside of a sand trap. You don’t have to clean the pebbles and put the sand back.

    We absolutely agree on the bad look. I just think the rules are to blame for allowing it to be done. And obviously the official agrees or he’d have been penalized.

    Your post said: "I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up."

    Can you see how your description of what constitutes the lie changing is dead wrong when compared to the actual definition in the rules?

    That's all I was trying to explain to you. That you certainly can change your lie and improve your lie by moving the things around the ball. It's not just based on whether the ball moves.

    Not in this instance. No.

    If the things being moved where to move the ball. Or if something was pulled from underneath the ball Sure. The balls lie would then change.

    Ping G410  11.2* Tensei pro OrangeV2 proto 70TX 
    Ping G410 15.5* Graphite Design ADDI 8x
    Ping G410 21* ADDI 105x 
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    Ping Glide Forged  50  54 60 s400
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  • straightshot7straightshot7 Members Posts: 3,233 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:

    @straightshot7 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @straightshot7 said:

    @bladehunter said:

    @straightshot7 said:
    @bladehunter said:

    I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up.

    I don’t like the optics of it at alll. But. It’s well within the rules. I’ve said all along that the rules of this game won’t stand up to 50 inch tv screens. You can see too much of what’s always went on.

    What? Of course the "lie" has to do with more than just the ground that the bottom of the ball is touching.

    Definition from the 2019 Rules book:

    "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

    I'm not saying Kuchar broke the rule. I haven't looked closely at what he did. If he just removed loose impediments then yes you would be correct he didn't technically improve his lie according to the rule.

    But obviously there's more to the "lie" than just the way it is sitting. You can improve your lie by removing things that are touching the ball or right next to it. People could argue that he moved too much around the ball that was not technically a loose impediment.

    Based on your post, it sounds like you think it would be okay to pat the grass behind the ball (e.g. from the rough with a 3 wood) with your club since you aren't technically moving the ball?

    Lol. You didn’t bold the most important part. “ loose impediments and movable obstructions are NOT part of the lie of the ball”.

    Come on ^ ? Lol. That was tooo easy.

    Sigh. I was afraid you might say that...come on man . . . Did you even read my entire post? Or are you just looking for a way to be right, even though you're not?

    I already addressed that in what I said.

    That doesn't change the fact that you CAN change your lie by moving all kinds of things around your ball which ARE NOT loose impediments... That's what some people are saying: that in the process of trying to move "loose impediments", Kuchar moved a bunch of things which are not loose impediments.

    Your most made it sound like the only way to change or improve one's lie is to MOVE the BALL. Which is obviously not that case.

    You also conveniently ignored my question of if you're okay with patting down the grass behind the ball, as long as the ball doesn't move.

    I’m not being purposefully obtuse at all. I really don’t get it. Lol. What did he move that isn’t a loose impediment? Pebbles are. Even if sand is attached , when outside of a sand trap. You don’t have to clean the pebbles and put the sand back.

    We absolutely agree on the bad look. I just think the rules are to blame for allowing it to be done. And obviously the official agrees or he’d have been penalized.

    Your post said: "I’m not sure I understand how he “ changed his lie “. He didn’t pick the ball up. So by definition is the lie still the same ? As in the ball is lying the same. He just removed loose impediments around the lie ...yes? Let’s stop saying he improved his lie. He didn’t unless he rolled the ball or picked it up."

    Can you see how your description of what constitutes the lie changing is dead wrong when compared to the actual definition in the rules?

    That's all I was trying to explain to you. That you certainly can change your lie and improve your lie by moving the things around the ball. It's not just based on whether the ball moves.

    Not in this instance. No.

    If the things being moved where to move the ball. Or if something was pulled from underneath the ball Sure. The balls lie would then change.

    I'll just post the definition for you one more time and then I'll be going:

    "Lie: The spot on which your ball is at rest and any growing or attached natural object, immovable obstruction, integral object, or boundary object touching your ball or right next to it. Loose impediments and movable obstructions are not part of the lie of a ball."

    Therefore, my point is, there could be something "right next to [the ball]" that is moved and therefore the lie is changed. If you read the definition carefully, it isn't just about loose impediments or the ball moving. You can improve your lie just by removing or moving things around the ball. Things which are not loose impediments.

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