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Paul Casey almost penalized for putted ball running over a bug

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  • dmecca2dmecca2 Scranton, PAMembers Posts: 80 ✭✭✭

    @diugnal said:
    Key word “knowingly” has been changed inadvertently to “purposely”.
    So not deliberate.

    Because Paul C didn’t KNOW he had hit the bug. There was no requirement for him to cop a penalty.
    The relevant Rule is actually 11.1b Exception 2. (Not 11.2b which was quoted in media references)
    If you read the Rule Exception it refers to ANIMAL.
    Go Definitions for ANIMAL and find it means just about any animate being except humans. That means very small bugs, spiders etc., are included.
    I reckon a lot of putts contact little bugs on the way to the hole or probably missing it.
    If you know for sure you must “cancel” the stroke and try again.
    Talk about complicated! Live insects on a ball are “Loose Impediments.
    The Rules are much better but still have plenty of complications.

    What if I see the ball bounce up while rolling and upon further investigation, see that I hit a ladybug. Does that ladybug have to be alive to replay my shot? Further, what if, by rolling my ball over said ladybug, I killed it. Am I still entitled to replay?

    These are very specific situations that cross my mind when I think about this rule lol

  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,964 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ferguson said:
    Don't the Brits call bugs something else?

    @JD3 said:
    True story. I accidentally ate a bug on a golf course once when it flew into my mouth during a swing. Never called it on myself but in retrospect maybe I should have checked.

    Were you hungry?

    no actually I lost my appetite quickly thereafter -- bugs taste terrible

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  • FergusonFerguson Members Posts: 5,182 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @JD3 said:

    @Ferguson said:
    Don't the Brits call bugs something else?

    @JD3 said:
    True story. I accidentally ate a bug on a golf course once when it flew into my mouth during a swing. Never called it on myself but in retrospect maybe I should have checked.

    Were you hungry?

    no actually I lost my appetite quickly thereafter -- bugs taste terrible

    If you were hungry, it could be alleged by some that you went after the bug for personal reasons. However, since you were not hungry, the bug encounter was a natural encounter with nature.
    No penalty.

  • Titleist99Titleist99 Members Posts: 451 ✭✭✭✭

    @dmecca2 said:

    @diugnal said:
    Key word “knowingly” has been changed inadvertently to “purposely”.
    So not deliberate.

    Because Paul C didn’t KNOW he had hit the bug. There was no requirement for him to cop a penalty.
    The relevant Rule is actually 11.1b Exception 2. (Not 11.2b which was quoted in media references)
    If you read the Rule Exception it refers to ANIMAL.
    Go Definitions for ANIMAL and find it means just about any animate being except humans. That means very small bugs, spiders etc., are included.
    I reckon a lot of putts contact little bugs on the way to the hole or probably missing it.
    If you know for sure you must “cancel” the stroke and try again.
    Talk about complicated! Live insects on a ball are “Loose Impediments.
    The Rules are much better but still have plenty of complications.

    What if I see the ball bounce up while rolling and upon further investigation, see that I hit a ladybug. Does that ladybug have to be alive to replay my shot? Further, what if, by rolling my ball over said ladybug, I killed it. Am I still entitled to replay?

    These are very specific situations that cross my mind when I think about this rule lol

    I think that we're going down a slippery slope with this bug thing.....what if Dechambeau claim that he was waiting for or swiping at a bug as the reason for his slow play....does one supersede the other......Just asking.

  • dmecca2dmecca2 Scranton, PAMembers Posts: 80 ✭✭✭

    @Titleist99 said:

    @dmecca2 said:

    @diugnal said:
    Key word “knowingly” has been changed inadvertently to “purposely”.
    So not deliberate.

    Because Paul C didn’t KNOW he had hit the bug. There was no requirement for him to cop a penalty.
    The relevant Rule is actually 11.1b Exception 2. (Not 11.2b which was quoted in media references)
    If you read the Rule Exception it refers to ANIMAL.
    Go Definitions for ANIMAL and find it means just about any animate being except humans. That means very small bugs, spiders etc., are included.
    I reckon a lot of putts contact little bugs on the way to the hole or probably missing it.
    If you know for sure you must “cancel” the stroke and try again.
    Talk about complicated! Live insects on a ball are “Loose Impediments.
    The Rules are much better but still have plenty of complications.

    What if I see the ball bounce up while rolling and upon further investigation, see that I hit a ladybug. Does that ladybug have to be alive to replay my shot? Further, what if, by rolling my ball over said ladybug, I killed it. Am I still entitled to replay?

    These are very specific situations that cross my mind when I think about this rule lol

    I think that we're going down a slippery slope with this bug thing.....what if Dechambeau claim that he was waiting for or swiping at a bug as the reason for his slow play....does one supersede the other......Just asking.

    Agree that these are weird questions that most likely will never happen in tournament play. But I can definitely see the "hitting a dead bug" on the green situation. Whats the call there? And then depending on the answer to that question, I would ask the next one. What if my ball killed said bug?

  • JD3JD3 Members Posts: 4,964 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Seriously does this mean he had to remove a live bug? What if it flew up and stung him?

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  • fillwelixfillwelix Members Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Did nobody read the article or watch the video? There's no issue here whatsoever. If he had purposefully rolled the putt over the bug, he would have to replay the shot. That's it. He didn't see the bug, it was caught on the camera, so there's no penalty and he doesn't have to replay the shot. I don't understand the outrage here at all.

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  • diugnaldiugnal Members Posts: 7 ✭✭

    There is a question above about a dead insect. By Definition it is a Loose Impediment. Therefore the stroke is not cancelled and replayed if your ball touches one. The cancel/replay is required for “Animals” which are alive. Sometimes on my course and others we see live snakes and dead snakes. A dead snake is a loose impediment, as is a dead kangaroo . It is not always easy to tell quickly if a snake is dead or alive. I don’t recommend prodding a snake with a Club to find out. Snakes are protected species, by the way, part of the ecosystem. We have not had any players bitten yet but some have been almost scared to death. I witnessed one event...an Eastern Brown at maximum size it had got ready to the strike position .
    Back on the Rules.
    If you don’t have the R & A App downloaded you should! I checked the Definitions in less than a minute for this.
    The search function is excellent. Put in a few key words. If you get too many references use the filters.

  • Roadking2003Roadking2003 AustinMembers Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @fillwelix said:
    Did nobody read the article or watch the video? There's no issue here whatsoever. If he had purposefully rolled the putt over the bug, he would have to replay the shot. That's it. He didn't see the bug, it was caught on the camera, so there's no penalty and he doesn't have to replay the shot. I don't understand the outrage here at all.

    You are correct in that there is no controversy.

    Your reason is close to correct. The issue isn't whether or not he purposefully hit a bug. The issue is that if he saw it hit the bug, he MUST replay the shot. He didn't see it hit the bug, therefore, he didn't have to replay the shot. If he saw it hit the bug and didn't replay the shot he would be penalized.

    Rule 11.1.b
    Exception 2 – When Ball Played from Putting Green Accidentally Hits Any Person, Animal or Movable Obstruction (Including Another Ball in Motion) on Putting Green: The stroke does not count and the original ball or another ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2)

  • fillwelixfillwelix Members Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Roadking2003 said:

    @fillwelix said:
    Did nobody read the article or watch the video? There's no issue here whatsoever. If he had purposefully rolled the putt over the bug, he would have to replay the shot. That's it. He didn't see the bug, it was caught on the camera, so there's no penalty and he doesn't have to replay the shot. I don't understand the outrage here at all.

    You are correct in that there is no controversy.

    Your reason is close to correct. The issue isn't whether or not he purposefully hit a bug. The issue is that if he saw it hit the bug, he MUST replay the shot. He didn't see it hit the bug, therefore, he didn't have to replay the shot. If he saw it hit the bug and didn't replay the shot he would be penalized.

    Rule 11.1.b
    Exception 2 – When Ball Played from Putting Green Accidentally Hits Any Person, Animal or Movable Obstruction (Including Another Ball in Motion) on Putting Green: The stroke does not count and the original ball or another ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2)

    Thanks for clarifying!

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