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Why don't more pros use Bettinardi or Toulon?

MeanmachinemoeMeanmachinemoe Members Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
edited Sep 8, 2019 2:58pm in Putters #1

As the title says. I know one answer is pay for play but does Scotty pay for play? If not, I would think you would see more guys who prefer a milled face use the other brands. Its puzzling to me. We know Odyssey pays for play. Why wouldn't the Odyssey staffers who like a milled putter use Toulon?

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  • C-radC-rad Members Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Great question.

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  • MedsonMedson Members Posts: 2,336 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    To an outsider (like me), it does seem there are more players play Toulon. Of all the fully milled putter brands, I think Toulon will give Scotty a run for his money. Things just take time, I presume.

  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 Admiration is the state furthest from understanding. Members Posts: 20,139 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    $$

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  • MeanmachinemoeMeanmachinemoe Members Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @MadGolfer76 said:
    $$

    Scotty pays for play?

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  • jtitleist12jtitleist12 Members Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Pay for play...
    But Toulon is legit!

  • MaineMarinerMaineMariner Members Posts: 474 ✭✭✭✭

    It seems to me that if a player isn't using a putter that they're being paid to play with, they're using a putter style/brand that they're extremely comfortable, perhaps one that they've used for a really long time. The player who's using the same putter that they've had since high school likely is not using an expensive Bettinardi, they're probably using a 2-Ball or something.

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  • Jack PearsallJack Pearsall Members Posts: 3,414 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Probably they are kind of cruddy putters?
    Pros would know.

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  • CRAFTYLEFTY20CRAFTYLEFTY20 Members Posts: 54 ✭✭

    Would like to see Toulon give Cameron putters a run for their money.

  • Luando85Luando85 AshevilleMembers Posts: 84 ✭✭✭

    Can’t go wrong with either one, must be a business aspect

  • YoungJediYoungJedi Members Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I believe a lot of it is deals. Like they have to use X number of clubs/14. And/or so many clubs + their putter who is the majority sponsor.

    Since bettinardi is not a full club manufacturer/just putters, it’s hard to target guys on staff with TM who now require 14 clubs, amongst other brands too.

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  • oneaugustaoneaugusta Members Posts: 3,069 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Actually quite a few pro's playing Bettinardi and a few Toulon

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  • MadGolfer76MadGolfer76 Admiration is the state furthest from understanding. Members Posts: 20,139 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Meanmachinemoe said:

    @MadGolfer76 said:
    $$

    Scotty pays for play?

    You'd have to ask Tiger Woods. I have no idea..

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  • YoungJediYoungJedi Members Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Meanmachinemoe said:

    @MadGolfer76 said:
    $$

    Scotty pays for play?

    More like Titleist plays to play. Titleist pays a lot of guys. May not be much, but it’s guaranteed. Scotty will give a putter to any player who has a tour card however. Regardless if they are Titleist or not.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    A lot more use Toulon that you think. Especially European tour. Loads of those stroke lab shafts you see aren’t odyssey.

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  • NDGolfer13NDGolfer13 Members Posts: 1,399 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @YoungJedi said:

    @Meanmachinemoe said:

    @MadGolfer76 said:
    $$

    Scotty pays for play?

    More like Titleist plays to play. Titleist pays a lot of guys. May not be much, but it’s guaranteed. Scotty will give a putter to any player who has a tour card however. Regardless if they are Titleist or not.

    Which is the case for every tour truck I believe. Companies know that when player a is seen using Their equipment it’s good business. And I’d venture to guess there’s a lot of mark up in tour issue putters from any mfg.

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  • jll62jll62 MinneapolisClubWRX Posts: 2,199 ClubWRX

    I don't think it's very complicated. Most of the players in question grew up in an era where Camerons had a perception as the "be all, end all" of high end putters. Unless they're under contract to play another brand, they stick with what they grew up playing. The first time they got a Circle T--whether as a junior or when they made it to the Tour--was probably a big deal that created an emotional connection to the brand.

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  • daleheaddalehead Members Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    If you want to get a good idea of what tour pros prefer in putters look to the guys who don’t have club deals with Titleist, TM, or Callaway. What do the Mizuno guys game? How about Srixon, Cobra, non contract guys. I think you’ll find Scotty coming out on top. Access? Check out Greg’s WITB photos from tournament sites. Putter manufacturers have bags of their putters on display by the putting green hoping a player will pick up one of their putters and put it in the bag.

  • daleheaddalehead Members Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @oneaugusta said:
    Actually quite a few pro's playing Bettinardi and a few Toulon

    Names?

  • collindm1collindm1 Members Posts: 126 ✭✭✭

    @dalehead said:

    @oneaugusta said:
    Actually quite a few pro's playing Bettinardi and a few Toulon

    Names?

    Toulon has quite a few...to name some: Molinari, Guido Migliozzi (European tour, can really putt, won 2 x this season), Thomas Pieters, Pablo Larrazabal, Kevin Na, Cody Gribble, Matt Every, Emiliano Grillo, Ollie Schniederjans, Scott Hend (won earlier this year at the Maybank).

    Bettinardi doesn't have as many, but make a great putter and have some in play: Jim Herman, Kuchar, Jason Kokrak, Collin Morikawa, Haotong LI, Eddie Pepperell, Ben Silverman, Seth Reeves, Joseph Bramlett (KFT), several on the European, PGA, and Korn Ferry Tour.

    In my opinion, Scotty still delivers the best and a lot of guys out there choose to use them because of the looks/clean lines, feel and roll off of the face. Most all pay, Odyssey, Titleist, TM, Ping, etc.. Many tour pros have told me they play with what they think will put the ball in the hole for them - take that for what it's worth, a lot of top players choose Scotty Cameron because they've tested them all and that's what rolls them in for them.

  • oneaugustaoneaugusta Members Posts: 3,069 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Think you forgot a few Betti's Fred Couples, Matt Kuchar and quite a few others

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  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky Members Posts: 1,655 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 9, 2019 11:34am #22

    @oneaugusta said:
    Think you forgot a few Betti's Fred Couples, Matt Kuchar and quite a few others

    Kuchar was the second in his list

    Feel free to list the ones he did not mention

  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 68 ClubWRX
    edited Sep 9, 2019 1:04pm #23

    Purely money. Look at Molinari - switches to Bettinardi and had an amazing season. Then gets a 14 Club Callaway deal and moves away from Bettinardi to a Callaway brand putter in the same design (Toulon is part of Callaway). Look at Morikawa - uses Bettinardi in college and to win his first tournament but once his TM deal begins he switches to TM.

    Bettinardi is as good or better than any others out there but they don’t have the ability to give 14 club deals or to pay big bucks to guys who might have a 13 club deal but want to be paid for their putter. It is just the reality of being a putter company and not a huge brand with every club in the bag.

    I have been told that Titleist pays guys who use Scottys but there are likely exceptions as some of them (like Koepka and Woods) don’t use other Titleist clubs and have just used a Scotty for a long time and perhaps don’t get paid.

    One key sign is whether social media posts after a victory by one of the putter companies actually name the golfer or just extol the victory itself. Bettinardi has a few of this that I’ve noticed and Scotty as well - for instance I don’t think he pays Tiger and so the Scotty posts after the Masters didn’t mention Tiger by name but congratulated the masters champion and showed a pic of the putter (while he shows pics of Justin Thomas because he is a Titleist staffer and gets paid to play Cameron putter). Same as when Koepka won the PGA - pic of the putter but no mention of his name.

    I think that if you are not TM, Callaway or Titleist, as a putter brand you are left with either the young guys who keep what they used in college and/or don’t have a contract yet or the really well established guys who can afford to ignore the extra money and play what they want to play - Ricky and Koepka come to mind as does Kuchar.

    Post edited by DGord10 on
  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 68 ClubWRX

    @GoGoErky said:

    @oneaugusta said:
    Think you forgot a few Betti's Fred Couples, Matt Kuchar and quite a few others

    Kuchar was the second in his list

    Feel free to list the ones he did not mention

    The “official” list of paid staffers is on their website but there are a number of men and women who use Bettinardi but aren’t listed because they don’t get paid. Harder to come up with that list over time as many of them may change in and out since they aren’t under contract. Such as Lexi used to use Bettinardi but doesn’t any longer. I think Molinari’s brother did for a while this season but not sure about now. Probably a lot of examples among the golfers who don’t have contracts (yet).

  • YoungJediYoungJedi Members Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Morikowa needs to be in a Taylormade by 9/1. He used his Bettinardi 3 step Jam that he won the PAC 12s with and was comfortable with to, to get his card. Really hoping TM allows him to renegotiate or pay some sort of a fine. Their move to 14 club deals seam silly...

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  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 68 ClubWRX

    I agree with you but it is too important to TM to let him do it. They are paying big money to brand a new pro because they hope he continues to win and that is the exposure they need, want and are paying for. I’m not sure where they sit in the world of putter sales but I would guess they feel they are chasing Scotty and perhaps Odyssey and so the putter is too big a part of what they are paying him for to let him switch.

    @YoungJedi said:
    Morikowa needs to be in a Taylormade by 9/1. He used his Bettinardi 3 step Jam that he won the PAC 12s with and was comfortable with to, to get his card. Really hoping TM allows him to renegotiate or pay some sort of a fine. Their move to 14 club deals seam silly...

  • YoungJediYoungJedi Members Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @DGord10 said:
    I agree with you but it is too important to TM to let him do it. They are paying big money to brand a new pro because they hope he continues to win and that is the exposure they need, want and are paying for. I’m not sure where they sit in the world of putter sales but I would guess they feel they are chasing Scotty and perhaps Odyssey and so the putter is too big a part of what they are paying him for to let him switch.

    @YoungJedi said:
    Morikowa needs to be in a Taylormade by 9/1. He used his Bettinardi 3 step Jam that he won the PAC 12s with and was comfortable with to, to get his card. Really hoping TM allows him to renegotiate or pay some sort of a fine. Their move to 14 club deals seam silly...

    Agree and disagree at the same time. Wouldn’t him winning be more beneficial? Winning with 13 clubs as opposed to middle of the pack with 14 clubs? IMO the average joe doesn’t know what bettinardi is, so seeing him on TV they will think it’s just a TM blade. The spider is already famous. One more guy won’t move the teeter totter. Again just my opinion.

    Scotty is Scotty. He only makes putters. Taylormade is known for their woods, and is getting good at everything else, but if it were me (I know it’s not). I’d rather have the guy play really well with something he’s comfortable with rather than not as good because he’s uncomfortable on the greens. I digress

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  • collindm1collindm1 Members Posts: 126 ✭✭✭

    @DGord10 said:

    @GoGoErky said:

    @oneaugusta said:
    Think you forgot a few Betti's Fred Couples, Matt Kuchar and quite a few others

    Kuchar was the second in his list

    Feel free to list the ones he did not mention

    The “official” list of paid staffers is on their website but there are a number of men and women who use Bettinardi but aren’t listed because they don’t get paid. Harder to come up with that list over time as many of them may change in and out since they aren’t under contract. Such as Lexi used to use Bettinardi but doesn’t any longer. I think Molinari’s brother did for a while this season but not sure about now. Probably a lot of examples among the golfers who don’t have contracts (yet).

    @DGord10 said:

    @GoGoErky said:

    @oneaugusta said:
    Think you forgot a few Betti's Fred Couples, Matt Kuchar and quite a few others

    Kuchar was the second in his list

    Feel free to list the ones he did not mention

    The “official” list of paid staffers is on their website but there are a number of men and women who use Bettinardi but aren’t listed because they don’t get paid. Harder to come up with that list over time as many of them may change in and out since they aren’t under contract. Such as Lexi used to use Bettinardi but doesn’t any longer. I think Molinari’s brother did for a while this season but not sure about now. Probably a lot of examples among the golfers who don’t have contracts (yet).

    Edoardo Molinari currently uses a Bettinardi putter. I left out some guys in my original list on both sides because I'm lazy and didn't want to type all of the players I knew out!!

  • Double DodgerDouble Dodger Members Posts: 111 ✭✭✭

    If Betti’s are garbage that might explain why Scotty could never mill another NP 2 that Tiger would play with......

    Betti’s are great putters. Just because the Pros don’t play as many means absolute nothing. Remember, Titleist has dang near all the players playing their ball but every week the lowly others have a rather conspicuous presence in the top ten. Play what you like or be marketing fodder.....

  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 68 ClubWRX

    You make a great point because winning is winning - just so hard to pinpoint that on a putter until he uses a TM putter and putts poorly in comparison so who knows, may see a swith back in a few months.... what TM putter is he now using? Maybe it is something that looks and feels just like the 3 step jam?

    @YoungJedi said:

    @DGord10 said:
    I agree with you but it is too important to TM to let him do it. They are paying big money to brand a new pro because they hope he continues to win and that is the exposure they need, want and are paying for. I’m not sure where they sit in the world of putter sales but I would guess they feel they are chasing Scotty and perhaps Odyssey and so the putter is too big a part of what they are paying him for to let him switch.

    @YoungJedi said:
    Morikowa needs to be in a Taylormade by 9/1. He used his Bettinardi 3 step Jam that he won the PAC 12s with and was comfortable with to, to get his card. Really hoping TM allows him to renegotiate or pay some sort of a fine. Their move to 14 club deals seam silly...

    Agree and disagree at the same time. Wouldn’t him winning be more beneficial? Winning with 13 clubs as opposed to middle of the pack with 14 clubs? IMO the average joe doesn’t know what bettinardi is, so seeing him on TV they will think it’s just a TM blade. The spider is already famous. One more guy won’t move the teeter totter. Again just my opinion.

    Scotty is Scotty. He only makes putters. Taylormade is known for their woods, and is getting good at everything else, but if it were me (I know it’s not). I’d rather have the guy play really well with something he’s comfortable with rather than not as good because he’s uncomfortable on the greens. I digress

  • LlortamaiseyLlortamaisey Members Posts: 6,060 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Like most have said, pay for play is the biggest reason. The second biggest reason is play for pay.

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