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Why don't more pros use Bettinardi or Toulon?

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  • cmatthews77cmatthews77 ALMembers Posts: 868 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If Betti wanted a quick jump in tour pros using their putters they’d have to sell the brand to Taylor Made or Cobra.

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  • AubFanAubFan Members Posts: 41 ✭✭

    Ive seen Morikawa use a long neck Juno with a black insert and a spider also.

  • MaximilianMaximilian Members Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Don't know for sure, just thinking loudly.

    Many pro's are used to the feel of Odyssey putters, particularly the variations of the White Hot insert. If you are used to the feel and rebound of a certain insert, I think many will stick with it even if there are fancier putters out there. Plus, the pro's get their Odyssey putters setup to perfection, so it's not like they are missing out on any performance benefits compared to a milled putter.

    I would think that Camerons are popular (apart from those that get paid to use them), simply because the availability. If a Cameron rep (or maybe Scotty himself?) comes up to you as a new professional on a practice green and asks to the tiniest details what you are looking for in a putter and offers help in figuring out your tendencies, then chances are you are going to like the putter he brings you the following week. While I'm sure Bettinardi and Toulon (and any other putter manufacturer) will fit and build any putter for any pro who asks, they may not be out there in the same capacity as Cameron. At least that's my perception, especially from a few years back.

  • BaddsBadds Members Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Jack Pearsall said:
    Probably they are kind of cruddy putters?
    Pros would know.

    Pure troll job.

  • JoeFrigoJoeFrigo Members Posts: 108 ✭✭✭

    ive always wondered this too. Last scotty I had was a 2016 Newport 2.5. Of course they're not bad putters but ive preferred the looks and feel of Bettinardi and Toulon putters tbh. I dont think you'll see them on PGA Tour, maybe just the lower tours right now, but even the Swag putters feel better to me than a Scotty

    Ive never felt the Circle T's to know what the hype is or how good/better they are than Scotty's stock offerings to consumers.

    Even the pay to play argument is hard to tell. I see plenty of pros playing odyssey putters but not Toulon's. I know odyssey owns them now but I still see more Odyssey putters.

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  • collindm1collindm1 Members Posts: 125 ✭✭✭

    It's really simple, if you're a pro golfer, and you don't have a full 14 club deal, you putt with what you feel like you make the most putts with. If you have a 14 club deal, the company you have the 14 club deal with will make you a putter that you at least feel "more" comfortable with putting in play. Just look at what the guys are putting with that don't have a full club deal - that will tell you what you need to know. Players don't switch gear unless they think it will make them better - that goes for almost every one of them out there. If you see tons of Scotty's and Odyssey's in play, there's an actual reason for it - and sometimes it's not just the ol pay for play argument!

  • leftycabeleftycabe IowaClubWRX Posts: 65 ClubWRX

    I like this thread and understand the intent but in all reality, almost none of the tour players are using a putter that “Joe Public” can buy off the shelf. Most guys use a similar head shape that is tweaked/shaped to their eye. Above and beyond that, almost all of them are getting putters made from GSS or other higher end materials that are not used in their off the shelf putters sold to the public. I could be wrong but I can’t remember seeing a single tour pro using a mass produced Scotty that has been made in the last 10 years - if not more. However, the Odyssey guys look to use the same putter all the rest of us can buy.

    As I’m typing this I’m realizing I’m off track on a rant. My intention was to ask if anyone knows if the Betti and Odyssey/Toulon players are playing with the same materials as the off the shelf offerings or are they also using higher end materials?

  • YoungJediYoungJedi Members Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @leftycabe said:

    As I’m typing this I’m realizing I’m off track on a rant. My intention was to ask if anyone knows if the Betti and Odyssey/Toulon players are playing with the same materials as the off the shelf offerings or are they also using higher end materials?

    I don’t believe so. Most all them are using some sort of DASS or carbon putter stamped Tour or with their tour logos. The catch tho... is that the average Joe can buy these in the Hive every other Thursday for about 1k. Which I find extremely reasonable. So In a way, yes

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  • Scotty1140Scotty1140 Members Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @leftycabe said:
    I like this thread and understand the intent but in all reality, almost none of the tour players are using a putter that “Joe Public” can buy off the shelf. Most guys use a similar head shape that is tweaked/shaped to their eye. Above and beyond that, almost all of them are getting putters made from GSS or other higher end materials that are not used in their off the shelf putters sold to the public. I could be wrong but I can’t remember seeing a single tour pro using a mass produced Scotty that has been made in the last 10 years - if not more. However, the Odyssey guys look to use the same putter all the rest of us can buy.

    As I’m typing this I’m realizing I’m off track on a rant. My intention was to ask if anyone knows if the Betti and Odyssey/Toulon players are playing with the same materials as the off the shelf offerings or are they also using higher end materials?

    Don’t buy into the hype.

    None of the materials listed here are “higher end”. And just because pros use variations of OTR releases or different heads altogether, doesn’t mean they are using superior equipment.

  • tgoodspe1991tgoodspe1991 New EnglandMembers Posts: 912 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Scotty1140 said:

    @leftycabe said:
    I like this thread and understand the intent but in all reality, almost none of the tour players are using a putter that “Joe Public” can buy off the shelf. Most guys use a similar head shape that is tweaked/shaped to their eye. Above and beyond that, almost all of them are getting putters made from GSS or other higher end materials that are not used in their off the shelf putters sold to the public. I could be wrong but I can’t remember seeing a single tour pro using a mass produced Scotty that has been made in the last 10 years - if not more. However, the Odyssey guys look to use the same putter all the rest of us can buy.

    As I’m typing this I’m realizing I’m off track on a rant. My intention was to ask if anyone knows if the Betti and Odyssey/Toulon players are playing with the same materials as the off the shelf offerings or are they also using higher end materials?

    Don’t buy into the hype.

    None of the materials listed here are “higher end”. And just because pros use variations of OTR releases or different heads altogether, doesn’t mean they are using superior equipment.

    On top of that, many Pro's are using the exact same putter than you can get OTR, theirs is just tamped with a Circle T which makes people think it's "better".

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  • jschwarbjschwarb Members Posts: 819 BST Banned

    @DGord10 said:
    Purely money. Look at Molinari - switches to Bettinardi and had an amazing season. Then gets a 14 Club Callaway deal and moves away from Bettinardi to a Callaway brand putter in the same design (Toulon is part of Callaway). Look at Morikawa - uses Bettinardi in college and to win his first tournament but once his TM deal begins he switches to TM.

    Bettinardi is as good or better than any others out there but they don’t have the ability to give 14 club deals or to pay big bucks to guys who might have a 13 club deal but want to be paid for their putter. It is just the reality of being a putter company and not a huge brand with every club in the bag.

    I have been told that Titleist pays guys who use Scottys but there are likely exceptions as some of them (like Koepka and Woods) don’t use other Titleist clubs and have just used a Scotty for a long time and perhaps don’t get paid.

    One key sign is whether social media posts after a victory by one of the putter companies actually name the golfer or just extol the victory itself. Bettinardi has a few of this that I’ve noticed and Scotty as well - for instance I don’t think he pays Tiger and so the Scotty posts after the Masters didn’t mention Tiger by name but congratulated the masters champion and showed a pic of the putter (while he shows pics of Justin Thomas because he is a Titleist staffer and gets paid to play Cameron putter). Same as when Koepka won the PGA - pic of the putter but no mention of his name.

    I think that if you are not TM, Callaway or Titleist, as a putter brand you are left with either the young guys who keep what they used in college and/or don’t have a contract yet or the really well established guys who can afford to ignore the extra money and play what they want to play - Ricky and Koepka come to mind as does Kuchar.

    You're 100 percent right about social media, it's just silly to congratulate the Masters champion without his name. Who are they fooling? I have always thought that was kind of insulting our intelligence -- if we're following these brands on social, we're more than just casual golf fans.

  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,848 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @bladehunter said:
    A lot more use Toulon that you think. Especially European tour. Loads of those stroke lab shafts you see aren’t odyssey.

    @bladehunter said:
    A lot more use Toulon that you think. Especially European tour. Loads of those stroke lab shafts you see aren’t odyssey.

    These days, unfortunately, if you are playing Toulon it is an Odyssey.

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  • Zengolfer36Zengolfer36 Columbus, OHMembers Posts: 134 ✭✭✭

    Pay for play and tour support. One thing about Scotty is that if you are a tour pro, you can go to any tour event, go to the Titleist truck and get your putter worked on if you need it.
    You could say that Scottys are overpriced and overrated but the simple fact is that they are almost unrivaled when it comes to support.

  • Scotty1140Scotty1140 Members Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zengolfer36 said:
    Pay for play and tour support. One thing about Scotty is that if you are a tour pro, you can go to any tour event, go to the Titleist truck and get your putter worked on if you need it.
    You could say that Scottys are overpriced and overrated but the simple fact is that they are almost unrivaled when it comes to support.

    I’m pretty sure the TM, Callaway, Ping, etc guys can all go to their respective trucks and get most anything they want done to it.

  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members Posts: 7,820 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I believe Scotty does pay, as do most OEMs. Even though there's pretty much 0 tech in my Betti, the feel is just unreal.

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  • RodrigoNicelyRodrigoNicely Members Posts: 796 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mr. Cameron would like you to believe pros play his putters because they are just that good. The fact is Cameron has one of the highest pay for play incentives out of all putters. Using a putter for a win gets a bonus. Using one for x amount of consecutive weeks gets you a bonus. That and the fact tour pros can get just about anything made up for them is what has kept Cameron on top.

  • BYKBYK Members Posts: 1,838 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @RodrigoNicely said:
    Mr. Cameron would like you to believe pros play his putters because they are just that good. The fact is Cameron has one of the highest pay for play incentives out of all putters. Using a putter for a win gets a bonus. Using one for x amount of consecutive weeks gets you a bonus. That and the fact tour pros can get just about anything made up for them is what has kept Cameron on top.

    Would love to hear where you got that info.

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  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,805 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe I'm imagining this but I thought Cameron would provide a customized putter to pretty much any pro that asked. Titleist's game is tour association and nobody plays that game better than Cameron. That's a pretty enticing incentive if true. How many other custom putter makers have guys on tour to work with players to the extent Cameron does?

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  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 68 ClubWRX

    Given club making sophistication now, I have no doubt all of the putter companies have the capability to customize and modify putters to tour players specs and desires and are willing to do so at a moments notice whenever requested. Maybe 10-15 years ago it was different and Scotty was the only guy doing it, but now and in recent years TM, Callaway/Toulon, Bettinardi, etc would be ready, willing and able to do it.

    @Nessism said:
    Maybe I'm imagining this but I thought Cameron would provide a customized putter to pretty much any pro that asked. Titleist's game is tour association and nobody plays that game better than Cameron. That's a pretty enticing incentive if true. How many other custom putter makers have guys on tour to work with players to the extent Cameron does?

  • YoungJediYoungJedi Members Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @DGord10 said:
    Purely money. Look at Molinari - switches to Bettinardi and had an amazing season. Then gets a 14 Club Callaway deal and moves away from Bettinardi to a Callaway brand putter in the same design (Toulon is part of Callaway). Look at Morikawa - uses Bettinardi in college and to win his first tournament but once his TM deal begins he switches to TM.

    Bettinardi is as good or better than any others out there but they don’t have the ability to give 14 club deals or to pay big bucks to guys who might have a 13 club deal but want to be paid for their putter. It is just the reality of being a putter company and not a huge brand with every club in the bag.

    I have been told that Titleist pays guys who use Scottys but there are likely exceptions as some of them (like Koepka and Woods) don’t use other Titleist clubs and have just used a Scotty for a long time and perhaps don’t get paid.

    One key sign is whether social media posts after a victory by one of the putter companies actually name the golfer or just extol the victory itself. Bettinardi has a few of this that I’ve noticed and Scotty as well - for instance I don’t think he pays Tiger and so the Scotty posts after the Masters didn’t mention Tiger by name but congratulated the masters champion and showed a pic of the putter (while he shows pics of Justin Thomas because he is a Titleist staffer and gets paid to play Cameron putter). Same as when Koepka won the PGA - pic of the putter but no mention of his name.

    I think that if you are not TM, Callaway or Titleist, as a putter brand you are left with either the young guys who keep what they used in college and/or don’t have a contract yet or the really well established guys who can afford to ignore the extra money and play what they want to play - Ricky and Koepka come to mind as does Kuchar.

    Morikawa wants to keep playing his bettinardi. Tm says he HAS to be 14 clubs. They are transitioning to mostly all 14 clubs deals to get more attention to their putters. If he had a 13 club deal, he’d still be rolling the betti.

    Moli I can’t speak for. I believe he has a 14 club deal as well. From what I heard, he wanted to get paid for the putter exponentially what he was prior, and couldn’t come to an agreement. But that’s just speculation.

    I’m 100% in the morikawa thing though.

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  • RodrigoNicelyRodrigoNicely Members Posts: 796 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BYK said:

    @RodrigoNicely said:
    Mr. Cameron would like you to believe pros play his putters because they are just that good. The fact is Cameron has one of the highest pay for play incentives out of all putters. Using a putter for a win gets a bonus. Using one for x amount of consecutive weeks gets you a bonus. That and the fact tour pros can get just about anything made up for them is what has kept Cameron on top.

    Would love to hear where you got that info.

    I have multiple friends that play on the pga tour and a few on the Korn Ferry tour. I promise you I am not making this up out of thin air.

  • Carson33Carson33 Members Posts: 459 ✭✭✭✭

    My first thought is that if you are comparing OTR Bettinardi, Toulon and Scotty then this is a legit question. However, the Circle T Scottys are ahead of Bettinardi and Toulon IMO. Compare a 009M or Timeless to BBZero or Toulon Austin and it is no comparison.

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  • DGord10DGord10 ClubWRX Posts: 68 ClubWRX
    edited Sep 15, 2019 10:15pm #54

    Cameron’s don’t roll any better from my personal experience and they don’t seem to be designed or milled any better from what I have seen and held. In fact depending on the type of head and type of face that someone may prefer - and based on what I have tried among both lines of putters - Bettinardi’s actually feel better and roll better for me - and do provide a wider variety of face feels - in fact I know a lot of people who have switched from Scotty to Bettinardi but have yet to find anyone who has switched back or the other way. If Scotty’s were clearly better than plenty of people would have switched back or gone from a Bettinardi to a Scotty.

    Though ultimately a personal feel/look question and many people have personal preferences for one over the other, it seems odd to me for someone to say Scotty is “ahead” of Bettinardi and so I am curious to hear how. In what way is a timeless or 009 so much better than a BBZero or BB8? Certainly not the design and certainly not the materials or milling prowess as those are easily comparable for the Bettinardi.

    @Carson33 said:
    My first thought is that if you are comparing OTR Bettinardi, Toulon and Scotty then this is a legit question. However, the Circle T Scottys are ahead of Bettinardi and Toulon IMO. Compare a 009M or Timeless to BBZero or Toulon Austin and it is no comparison.

  • collindm1collindm1 Members Posts: 125 ✭✭✭

    @DGord10 said:
    Cameron’s don’t roll any better from my personal experience and they don’t seem to be designed or milled any better from what I have seen and held. In fact depending on the type of head and type of face that someone may prefer - and based on what I have tried among both lines of putters - Bettinardi’s actually feel better and roll better for me - and do provide a wider variety of face feels - in fact I know a lot of people who have switched from Scotty to Bettinardi but have yet to find anyone who has switched back or the other way. If Scotty’s were clearly better than plenty of people would have switched back or gone from a Bettinardi to a Scotty.

    Though ultimately a personal feel/look question and many people have personal preferences for one over the other, it seems odd to me for someone to say Scotty is “ahead” of Bettinardi and so I am curious to hear how. In what way is a timeless or 009 so much better than a BBZero or BB8? Certainly not the design and certainly not the materials or milling prowess as those are easily comparable for the Bettinardi.

    @Carson33 said:
    My first thought is that if you are comparing OTR Bettinardi, Toulon and Scotty then this is a legit question. However, the Circle T Scottys are ahead of Bettinardi and Toulon IMO. Compare a 009M or Timeless to BBZero or Toulon Austin and it is no comparison.

    I know several that have gone from Bettinardi back to SC. I used a Bettinardi for a while but switched back to a Scotty. Feel and look and roll on the ball IMO was better with the Scotty. I know several more that have done the same. Both excellent putters and would game a Bettinardi if I didn't game SC.

  • Carson33Carson33 Members Posts: 459 ✭✭✭✭

    @DGord10 said:
    Cameron’s don’t roll any better from my personal experience and they don’t seem to be designed or milled any better from what I have seen and held. In fact depending on the type of head and type of face that someone may prefer - and based on what I have tried among both lines of putters - Bettinardi’s actually feel better and roll better for me - and do provide a wider variety of face feels - in fact I know a lot of people who have switched from Scotty to Bettinardi but have yet to find anyone who has switched back or the other way. If Scotty’s were clearly better than plenty of people would have switched back or gone from a Bettinardi to a Scotty.

    Though ultimately a personal feel/look question and many people have personal preferences for one over the other, it seems odd to me for someone to say Scotty is “ahead” of Bettinardi and so I am curious to hear how. In what way is a timeless or 009 so much better than a BBZero or BB8? Certainly not the design and certainly not the materials or milling prowess as those are easily comparable for the Bettinardi.

    @Carson33 said:
    My first thought is that if you are comparing OTR Bettinardi, Toulon and Scotty then this is a legit question. However, the Circle T Scottys are ahead of Bettinardi and Toulon IMO. Compare a 009M or Timeless to BBZero or Toulon Austin and it is no comparison.

    You make some valid points, and I agree with what you have said. As far as my “ahead” comment, I meant that Betti’s and Toulon on tour seem to be OTR offerings with some different site lines, etc. They do not seem like they are any different than what anyone can get at a normal price. However, the Scotty’s on tour are NOTHING like the OTR putters he offers. So, I believe tour players put Scotty in the bags more often than Betti and Toulon because the tour putters are very nice and refined. I have rolled an 009, Timeless and Tour Rat. To me, they seem like nicer putters than the Bettinardi and Toulon putters I have rolled.

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  • T-MACT-MAC Members Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I have to say, I've rolled pretty much everything out there. I own 009's, Tour Rats, Betti's, Timeless, Toulon's, etc and they all feel very good. It usually comes down to marketing / $$$$, and Scotty/Titleist are masters in the putter department. I have a 600.00 MannKraft MA/66 that feels just as good as any 009 I own and I have a sweet oil can Black Lab BL-1 that cost me a whole 300.00 bucks that rolls the balls pure - both fully custom putters..........but how are those guys ever going to pay a Pro big bucks to roll one of their putters on Tour?

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