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Following Rules

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  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,932 ClubWRX

    @yellowlover519 said:
    The point of the post was not whether it was confrontational or polite. The point was to gather information and thoughts on how loosely people are taking the rules at these junior events. I could care less how it is addressed and didn’t feel the need to explain how nice or an **** I was about the situation. I’m not looking for a pat on my back for addressing the situation correctly. I was merely asking if this is what others see happening on their local tours.

    But you didn't address the situation correctly based on your OP. You determined another player's score and you assessed a penalty when you were a caddie and not a referee or part of the committee. I respect that you want your son and others to play by the rules so why not follow the proper protocols for questions on scoring?

  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Kcct82 said:
    what a wonderful day, some excitement in the junior forum, it’s been too quiet.

    LOL!!!!

    I promise when I am less busy at work I will stir the pot again.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @yellowlover519 said:
    The point of the post was not whether it was confrontational or polite. The point was to gather information and thoughts on how loosely people are taking the rules at these junior events. I could care less how it is addressed and didn’t feel the need to explain how nice or an **** I was about the situation. I’m not looking for a pat on my back for addressing the situation correctly. I was merely asking if this is what others see happening on their local tours.

    But you didn't address the situation correctly based on your OP. You determined another player's score and you assessed a penalty when you were a caddie and not a referee or part of the committee. I respect that you want your son and others to play by the rules so why not follow the proper protocols for questions on scoring?

    Is not telling the dad who disagreed with the situation that he can put whatever score he wants on his son’s scorecard (you know - the place where you keep your own score along with a fellow competitor’s) and discuss at the scorer’s table not following protocol? Again, you seem to be fixated with the caddies holding the scorecard and keeping score (even though in my case my son handles the scores and parents just confirm after each hole). Please tell us your experience in dealing with the contrary (i.e., where a parent is caddying a 12u golfer and is not keeping/assisting with scores).

  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,932 ClubWRX

    I'm fixated on you deciding a penalty on a FC when it's not your role.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @DavePelz4 said:
    I'm fixated on you deciding a penalty on a FC when it's not your role.

    While I appreciate your fixation on who called or enforced the penalty (which is a complete cop out bc you have nothing else to contribute), please share with us your experience with the contrary (i.e., parent caddies conforming/verifying/keeping scores and enforcing rules in 12u tourney golf, especially when the tour itself encourages it). I’ve answered all your questions and you can’t answer one of mine - what experience you have as it relates to this topic and how your experience differs. Either you’re trying to save face (in a pretty weak way IMO) or you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

    I would rather you go on a rant that there is no reason to protect the field when a kid isn’t going to place (albeit wrong) or, there’s no need to be rule sticklers when these tourneys don’t mean anything in the long run (also wrong — not the part about these tourneys meaning something). Stick with one of those.

  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TripleBogeysrbetter said:
    **** Junior forum crashing and burning again***********

    Quick, somebody start a thread on junior driver distance to calm the storm.

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  • jholzjholz Members Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 10, 2019 4:59pm #38

    Here's a list of tips from U.S. Kids Golf concerning caddie conduct during the round. Note tip #4:

    1. Carry your player's bag and enjoy your time walking with them.
    2. Get to know all of the players and caddies in your group.
    3. You may help players look for their golf ball, determine distance to the hole, rake bunkers, fix divots in fairways, repair ballmarks on greens, and remove/replace the flagstick on the green.
      4. After every hole, write down the scores of your player and the player he/she is keeping score for.
    4. Help your player with making strategies and decisions in a timely manner.
    5. Encourage your player after both good and bad shots, and make sure he/she is having fun.

    So, hopefully that will put that particular facet of this argument to bed.

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  • TripleBogeysrbetterTripleBogeysrbetter Members Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    " On the first hole, his son marked the ball on the fringe and picked up. "
    Are you certain it was fringe and not maybe the 6 inches before the fringe. Crews cut greens different.
    "putting green’ is all ground of the hole being played that is specially prepared for putting or otherwise defined as such by the Committee. A ball is on the putting green when any part of it touches the putting green."
    Without you being apart of the committee are you sure he wasnt on the green?

    Just saying...

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  • TripleBogeysrbetterTripleBogeysrbetter Members Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    Quick, somebody start a thread on junior driver distance to calm the storm.

    Junior - Tower over...
    Junior - Tower over ...
    JUNIOR - TOWER OVER....

    SIR we've lost Junior again.

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  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,932 ClubWRX

    @jholz said:
    Here's a list of tips from U.S. Kids golf concerning caddie conduct during the round. Note tip #4:
    1. Carry your player's bag and enjoy your time walking with them.
    2. Get to know all of the players and caddies in your group.
    3. You may help players look for their golf ball, determine distance to the hole, rake bunkers, fix divots in fairways, repair ballmarks on greens, and remove/replace the flagstick on the green.
    _ 4. After every hole, write down the scores of your player and the player he/she is keeping score for._
    5. Help your player with making strategies and decisions in a timely manner.
    6. Encourage your player after both good and bad shots, and make sure he/she is having fun.

    So, hopefully that will put that particular facet of this argument to bed.

    Exactly. There is no mention of the caddie deciding/assessing penalties.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @jholz said:
    Here's a list of tips from U.S. Kids golf concerning caddie conduct during the round. Note tip #4:
    1. Carry your player's bag and enjoy your time walking with them.
    2. Get to know all of the players and caddies in your group.
    3. You may help players look for their golf ball, determine distance to the hole, rake bunkers, fix divots in fairways, repair ballmarks on greens, and remove/replace the flagstick on the green.
    _ 4. After every hole, write down the scores of your player and the player he/she is keeping score for._
    5. Help your player with making strategies and decisions in a timely manner.
    6. Encourage your player after both good and bad shots, and make sure he/she is having fun.

    So, hopefully that will put that particular facet of this argument to bed.

    Exactly. There is no mention of the caddie deciding/assessing penalties.

    Wow. Just wow.

  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,932 ClubWRX

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    I'm fixated on you deciding a penalty on a FC when it's not your role.

    While I appreciate your fixation on who called or enforced the penalty (which is a complete cop out bc you have nothing else to contribute), please share with us your experience with the contrary (i.e., parent caddies conforming/verifying/keeping scores and enforcing rules in 12u tourney golf, especially when the tour itself encourages it). I’ve answered all your questions and you can’t answer one of mine - what experience you have as it relates to this topic and how your experience differs. Either you’re trying to save face (in a pretty weak way IMO) or you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

    I would rather you go on a rant that there is no reason to protect the field when a kid isn’t going to place (albeit wrong) or, there’s no need to be rule sticklers when these tourneys don’t mean anything in the long run (also wrong — not the part about these tourneys meaning something). Stick with one of those.

    It's not a cop out, it's the fundamental point based on your OP. You decided the ball was on the fringe, you decided what the player's score was even though you were a caddie, you assessed a penalty. While I appreciate the personal attack, I'm posting facts based on what you posted.

  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I skipped most everyone's comments but would agree with @kcap on using the infraction as a learning experience for the kid. I've done it twice in US Kids events... both of these kids are very well accomplished golfers.

    First was with a kid that flat out would win almost every event he entered. I happened to see him tapping down some grass in the fringe in front of his ball (improving his lie). Ended up speaking to the dad after the round just to let him know what happened and he brought his son over so that I could explain it to him. I had really just intended to speak with the dad so he could deal with it later but it was a good learning experience for both of them.

    Second time was when I saw a kid cheat while marking his ball on the green. Didn't bring it up during the hole but spoke to the dad on the way to the next hole about what happened since he didn't see it. Dad then went off on the kid as we walked to the next hole but the kid denied it so the dad took his side. I have also seen this kid practicing on course prior to his tee time during a regional US Kids event and never said anything.

    From those instances I just kept a mental note not to associate with the latter while my respect for the first grew.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    I'm fixated on you deciding a penalty on a FC when it's not your role.

    While I appreciate your fixation on who called or enforced the penalty (which is a complete cop out bc you have nothing else to contribute), please share with us your experience with the contrary (i.e., parent caddies conforming/verifying/keeping scores and enforcing rules in 12u tourney golf, especially when the tour itself encourages it). I’ve answered all your questions and you can’t answer one of mine - what experience you have as it relates to this topic and how your experience differs. Either you’re trying to save face (in a pretty weak way IMO) or you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

    I would rather you go on a rant that there is no reason to protect the field when a kid isn’t going to place (albeit wrong) or, there’s no need to be rule sticklers when these tourneys don’t mean anything in the long run (also wrong — not the part about these tourneys meaning something). Stick with one of those.

    It's not a cop out, it's the fundamental point based on your OP. You decided the ball was on the fringe, you decided what the player's score was even though you were a caddie, you assessed a penalty. While I appreciate the personal attack, I'm posting facts based on what you posted.

    No - his dad was the one that said you can't mark there (I'm sure I've mentioned that). Because it was clearly fringe. Nobody disputed the fact that his son picked up when he shouldn't have. None of my posts suggests that nor was that the case. You can't share your experience to the contrary and add to this topic? Is your addition to this topic merely that a parent caddie at a USKG event has no right or authority to assess strokes when keeping a fellow competitor's score when the tour asks the parent caddie to keep score? Keep score in what way? Johnny - what did you get there. Oh Mr. ____ I got a birdie. Okay - thanks, let me just put down what you say you got. That's the what your stance on this topic is? Please state so if that's the case.

  • TripleBogeysrbetterTripleBogeysrbetter Members Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @DavePelz4 said:

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    I'm fixated on you deciding a penalty on a FC when it's not your role.

    While I appreciate your fixation on who called or enforced the penalty (which is a complete cop out bc you have nothing else to contribute), please share with us your experience with the contrary (i.e., parent caddies conforming/verifying/keeping scores and enforcing rules in 12u tourney golf, especially when the tour itself encourages it). I’ve answered all your questions and you can’t answer one of mine - what experience you have as it relates to this topic and how your experience differs. Either you’re trying to save face (in a pretty weak way IMO) or you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

    I would rather you go on a rant that there is no reason to protect the field when a kid isn’t going to place (albeit wrong) or, there’s no need to be rule sticklers when these tourneys don’t mean anything in the long run (also wrong — not the part about these tourneys meaning something). Stick with one of those.

    It's not a cop out, it's the fundamental point based on your OP. You decided the ball was on the fringe, you decided what the player's score was even though you were a caddie, you assessed a penalty. While I appreciate the personal attack, I'm posting facts based on what you posted.

    No - his dad was the one that said you can't mark there (I'm sure I've mentioned that). Because it was clearly fringe. Nobody disputed the fact that his son picked up when he shouldn't have. None of my posts suggests that nor was that the case. You can't share your experience to the contrary and add to this topic? Is your addition to this topic merely that a parent caddie at a USKG event has no right or authority to assess strokes when keeping a fellow competitor's score when the tour asks the parent caddie to keep score? Keep score in what way? Johnny - what did you get there. Oh Mr. ____ I got a birdie. Okay - thanks, let me just put down what you say you got. That's the what your stance on this topic is? Please state so if that's the case.

    My question is where was the college coaches when this was happening?

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  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,932 ClubWRX

    This is the first time you've mentioned that the Dad told his son he couldn't mark his ball there...so the young man did it anyway against his Dad's direction? As I've clearly stated, caddies can't decide/assess/announce penalties. Why not let the young man tell you what he thinks his score is and then you bring it up to the Dad, referee or committee instead of deciding his penalty? You stated that's what you did.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @kekoa said:
    Wait, so the kid just picked his ball up and forgot to mark?
    My thoughts: I would have asked my son if he saw it. If not, then hopefully the other kid placed his ball back where it was and move on. If my son did see it, then it is up to him to bring it up and call it on the other kid. If he wants to give the kid some friendly advice (without penalty) then so be it.

    OP, are you sure the other Dad knows all the rules in golf? Its unfair to assume the Dad is a bad guy for a mistake his son made. I mean he already admitted it was their first tournament. I can see both sides in this situation, but at that age, it should be up to the kid to discuss the scores and call penalties of rules are in fact breached.

    It's okay not to know the rules of golf or have no clue. My question in this topic is what you've answered. Would you/your child just let it go without penalty because they knew that the other player just didn't know. It's never been a topic on how/who to address a rule infraction. It's not intended to be a topic on how to address a rules infraction. It's a discussion on whether some players should be given leeway in tournaments irrespective of level of golf with disregard to the rest of the field. This was the first time in 70+ USKG events that I have ever heard a parent use as an excuse - why assess a stroke when it's his first tournament. I was just trying to get a feel if that's how loosey goosey a lot of local tours around the country are.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @yellowlover519 said:
    Not going to end well for me? Lol. I’ll be okay. Confused by the responses - you think bc a kid is 11 and not going to place it’s okay to just let them decide a score bc Johnny didn’t know better or bc it’s his first tourney? His dad certainly knew the infraction when it happened.

    Let’s just not call travel in basketball bc it’s his first basketball game.

    I said his dad certainly knew the infraction when it happened. Sorry if that wasn't clear to you. So now what's your point? That it should have been addressed differently? Is that your new fixation? You've moved on from the whole who's keeping score argument to how an infraction should be properly addressed? I already said it wasn't as confrontational as it seems from my original post.

  • TripleBogeysrbetterTripleBogeysrbetter Members Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    Just depends on regional and other players. We live in Virginia. We have 6 tours we've been apart of in the past two years. Never played USKG.
    VSGA (Virginia State Golf ****) is probably the loose of them all.

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  • cubuffscubuffs Members Posts: 402 ✭✭✭✭

    @yellowlover519 said:
    The point of the post was not whether it was confrontational or polite. The point was to gather information and thoughts on how loosely people are taking the rules at these junior events. I could care less how it is addressed and didn’t feel the need to explain how nice or an **** I was about the situation. I’m not looking for a pat on my back for addressing the situation correctly. I was merely asking if this is what others see happening on their local tours.

    To your question - as someone who has watched my son progress through several different levels of competition from 7-14 (US Kids local tours through State Junior Tour Elite / Invitational events), it somewhat depends on the level of tournament. In the example you give, a US kids local tour or lower level event, I would say it’s 50-50 at best and when done (at that age intent does come into play) and is done as more of a learning moment called immediately once the infraction happens so that the individual can learn moving forward.

    I know you could care less as to the how - but as mentioned above, it’s amazing how small the circle of kids playing competitive golf becomes as kids age and continue to progress. It becomes smaller and more tight knit - You don’t want to become “that guy” as it frankly carries a stigma that will impact your child moving forward.

  • kcapkcap Members Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    It's okay not to know the rules of golf or have no clue. My question in this topic is what you've answered. Would you/your child just let it go without penalty because they knew that the other player just didn't know. It's never been a topic on how/who to address a rule infraction. It's not intended to be a topic on how to address a rules infraction. It's a discussion on whether some players should be given leeway in tournaments irrespective of level of golf with disregard to the rest of the field. This was the first time in 70+ USKG events that I have ever heard a parent use as an excuse - why assess a stroke when it's his first tournament. I was just trying to get a feel if that's how loosey goosey a lot of local tours around the country are.

    Since you asked, my son would never enforce the penalty and has chosen on a Ziilion times not enforce the penalty. It is his choice and not mine. That said, if this was a not a first timer and knowingly or repeatedly violated the rules then he would assess the penalty. There are so many learning experiences for the new kids on the local tour, my son like to teach them and the parents the rules, where to take the drop where not to etc. rather assess a penalty on the kid that is lying 6 and will probably end up with a 10.

    Curious..after the dad told him that he cannot mark the ball did he still do it or was it already done so he went and put the ball back.

  • TripleBogeysrbetterTripleBogeysrbetter Members Posts: 193 ✭✭✭

    @kcap said:
    Since you asked, my son would never enforce the penalty and has chosen on a Ziilion times not enforce the penalty. It is his choice and not mine. That said, if this was a not a first timer and knowingly or repeatedly violated the rules then he would assess the penalty. There are so many learning experiences for the new kids on the local tour, my son like to teach them and the parents the rules, where to take the drop where not to etc. rather assess a penalty on the kid that is lying 6 and will probably end up with a 10.

    Curious..after the dad told him that he cannot mark the ball did he still do it or was it already done so he went and put the ball back.

    I love it when kids that stroke shave are told by other kids. "They make counters for keeping track of your shots."

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  • DZClarkDZClark Members Posts: 196 ✭✭✭

    I would have made sure the dad/kid knew that he violated the rules. If they asked, I would have said, "yea, it is usually a 1 shot penalty." If I knew the score they had, I would have put it down, including the penalty if my kid (not me, because we are out here for the kids) was playing for serious hardware. Yes, to me it makes a difference what type of tournament. When we are going through the scores at the end, if we differ on #1's score, well, I would tell them why I put down the extra stroke and give them a chance to prove what kind of people they are. If it doesn't matter, the kid is in last place, either way, then I would probably sign the card with either score. If he won or was in the medals, I would refuse to sign until we talked, quietly to the officials.

  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 9,115 ClubWRX

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @kekoa said:
    Wait, so the kid just picked his ball up and forgot to mark?
    My thoughts: I would have asked my son if he saw it. If not, then hopefully the other kid placed his ball back where it was and move on. If my son did see it, then it is up to him to bring it up and call it on the other kid. If he wants to give the kid some friendly advice (without penalty) then so be it.

    OP, are you sure the other Dad knows all the rules in golf? Its unfair to assume the Dad is a bad guy for a mistake his son made. I mean he already admitted it was their first tournament. I can see both sides in this situation, but at that age, it should be up to the kid to discuss the scores and call penalties of rules are in fact breached.

    It's okay not to know the rules of golf or have no clue. My question in this topic is what you've answered. Would you/your child just let it go without penalty because they knew that the other player just didn't know. It's never been a topic on how/who to address a rule infraction. It's not intended to be a topic on how to address a rules infraction. It's a discussion on whether some players should be given leeway in tournaments irrespective of level of golf with disregard to the rest of the field. This was the first time in 70+ USKG events that I have ever heard a parent use as an excuse - why assess a stroke when it's his first tournament. I was just trying to get a feel if that's how loosey goosey a lot of local tours around the country are.

    It just depends which local tour you are in. As you know, some are very laid back. Fortunately or unfortunately, what makes a tour laid back are the parents. With that said, some are very high strung and will call try to call you out on everything even if sometimes they are unsure of rulings themselves. The first tournament excuse is a valid one and if a penalty is going to be called, I think there are ways to do it where everyone can walk away still feeling good. Trust me, my son and I are still learning and he has been at it a long time already.

  • AUSweeperAUSweeper Members Posts: 46 ✭✭

    At what age do most people consider their kids to have a good enough grasp on the rules to call out their competitor for a violation?

  • mrshinsamrshinsa Members Posts: 223 ✭✭✭

    @cubuffs said:

    @yellowlover519 said:
    The point of the post was not whether it was confrontational or polite. The point was to gather information and thoughts on how loosely people are taking the rules at these junior events. I could care less how it is addressed and didn’t feel the need to explain how nice or an **** I was about the situation. I’m not looking for a pat on my back for addressing the situation correctly. I was merely asking if this is what others see happening on their local tours.

    To your question - as someone who has watched my son progress through several different levels of competition from 7-14 (US Kids local tours through State Junior Tour Elite / Invitational events), it somewhat depends on the level of tournament. In the example you give, a US kids local tour or lower level event, I would say it’s 50-50 at best and when done (at that age intent does come into play) and is done as more of a learning moment called immediately once the infraction happens so that the individual can learn moving forward.

    I know you could care less as to the how - but as mentioned above, it’s amazing how small the circle of kids playing competitive golf becomes as kids age and continue to progress. It becomes smaller and more tight knit - You don’t want to become “that guy” as it frankly carries a stigma that will impact your child moving forward.

    "that guy" is usually the topic of the conversation after the round while the dads are having their brew. Another topic that consistently comes up is the chronic "cheater" kid, but I think we can safely say we are not talking about that case here.

  • kcapkcap Members Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    @AUSweeper said:
    At what age do most people consider their kids to have a good enough grasp on the rules to call out their competitor for a violation?

    I do not think it is age specific but based on interest. My son at 10-11 knew the rules better than most parents that we played with, I know a bunch of 12-14 yrs old that are not sure about the rules of golf

  • jholzjholz Members Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 10, 2019 6:33pm #60

    My point in posting the "Tips for Caddies" from USKG was to point out that they encourage parents/caddies to be involved in the process of score keeping - which includes the process of ensuring that all scores are accurate, which in turn means that they should be accounting for all strokes and penalties. That is what they tell people to do. They do this because they realize that not every kid is going to know the rules of golf and they want kids to have some guidance from the older folks. It's a teaching process.

    So, to the issue of whether or not it was proper for Mr. Yellowlover to get involved in the scorekeeping/penalty assessing process - the answer is definitive. He was indeed acting properly.

    USKG rules, tips, and guidance never suggest that it is proper to cut kids slack on the rules because it is their first tournament or they are only X years old. Those of you who are arguing this point are arguing counter to the spirit of USKG and tournament golf in general. If junior can't handle a penalty stroke, they shouldn't be playing tournament golf. End of story.

    Simply put, and the chagrin of many, Mr. Yellowlover was, and remains, correct.

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    Callaway Diablo Edge Tour Hybrid 21* - Aldila NV 85 Stiff
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    5 - PW Cleveland CG7 Tour Black Pearl - DGSL S300
    Vokey Design 200 Series 52* Stock Wedge (?)
    Cleveland CG15 Oilcan 56* Stock Wedge
    Callaway X-Series JAWS Slate CC 58* Stock Wedge
    Odyssey White Ice #7 - Golf Pride Oversize
  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,932 ClubWRX

    For the most part he's correct. He cannot assess a penalty which he claims to have done. It doesn't sound like he gave the kid a chance to share his score based on his "announcement."

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