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Following Rules

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  • jholzjholz Members Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @DavePelz4 said:
    For the most part he's correct. He cannot assess a penalty which he claims to have done. It doesn't sound like he gave the kid a chance to share his score based on his "announcement."

    Yeah, I feel you. I too think that he could have handled the situation more diplomatically - and perhaps explained the situation more clearly in the OP. That being said, he was just trying to do what he was told and to act in the spirit of the game. Dude shouldn't be pilloried for that.

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  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,932 ClubWRX

    Had to Google pilloried! New word of the day...thank you.

    If things went down a differently and if some of the other things weren't in the post it's all good. If after the Dad told his son not to mark the ball and the player picked it up anyway forgetting to add a shot to his score that's one thing. But without getting the score from the player and then announcing what the kid's score was just doesn't sit right. Had he not stated that it got uncomfortable...and he didn't care, it would be different too. Part of the USKG program is positive coaching and an opportunity was certainly missed here.

  • AUSweeperAUSweeper Members Posts: 46 ✭✭

    Maybe a better approach would have been to wait until the other competitor or dad announced their score then bring up the rules infraction. Its better to get it resolved before moving on to the next hole or at the scorers table.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    @kcap said:

    It's okay not to know the rules of golf or have no clue. My question in this topic is what you've answered. Would you/your child just let it go without penalty because they knew that the other player just didn't know. It's never been a topic on how/who to address a rule infraction. It's not intended to be a topic on how to address a rules infraction. It's a discussion on whether some players should be given leeway in tournaments irrespective of level of golf with disregard to the rest of the field. This was the first time in 70+ USKG events that I have ever heard a parent use as an excuse - why assess a stroke when it's his first tournament. I was just trying to get a feel if that's how loosey goosey a lot of local tours around the country are.

    Since you asked, my son would never enforce the penalty and has chosen on a Ziilion times not enforce the penalty. It is his choice and not mine. That said, if this was a not a first timer and knowingly or repeatedly violated the rules then he would assess the penalty. There are so many learning experiences for the new kids on the local tour, my son like to teach them and the parents the rules, where to take the drop where not to etc. rather assess a penalty on the kid that is lying 6 and will probably end up with a 10.

    Curious..after the dad told him that he cannot mark the ball did he still do it or was it already done so he went and put the ball back.

    And therein lies our philosophical difference. It's not about enforcing a penalty bc you want to enforce the penalty for the sake of your placement in the field. It has nothing to do with you. You have no idea what impact that penalty will have in a large field. If you are grouped in a pairing, you are not protecting your score v. theirs. You are protecting the entire field and hoping that you are being protected in return. I expected to be the responses to be the complete opposite (having re-read my post, I get that it could be read as me being a complete douche about the situation, but that wasn't the case when it happened - that was just shorthand writing). I expected the response to be along the lines of -- we should all teach our kids why the rules are important and how it is important to protect the integrity of the scores for the entire field in an event. Cheaters will eventually get caught. How minor the infraction is irrelevant.
    I was at an AJGA event for another junior in our family and a kid he was paired with didn't want to bring up a penalty. The other player in their threesome did and my junior agreed to that happening. Finally, the kid that committed the penalty didn't want to sign an incorrect scorecard, so he reluctantly agreed. That kid's mom went apeshit. I was getting a feel of how loosey goosey local tours were around the country when it comes to rules and whether parent caddies were emphasizing rules and protecting the field at younger ages. Why the feeling of "it's his first tourney -- he didn't know."
    And before the crazy posts start coming, by "you" I mean the player.

  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    :) sounds like some great fun.

  • jholzjholz Members Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @2bGood said:
    :) sounds like some great fun.

    Golf? Fun? I don't think so sir!

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  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @AUSweeper said:
    Maybe a better approach would have been to wait until the other competitor or dad announced their score then bring up the rules infraction. Its better to get it resolved before moving on to the next hole or at the scorers table.

    Should have hit them with the infraction after signing the card and DQ'd the kid. /s

    (yes, I know max is 10 on USKG Tour)

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • leezer99leezer99 I swear I am quitting this site every day... Members Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @jholz said:

    @2bGood said:
    :) sounds like some great fun.

    Golf? Fun? I don't think so sir!

    There was an article here on GolfWRX about not calling golf fun anymore... I liked its premise overall.

    There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.

  • Pinewood GolferPinewood Golfer Members Posts: 150 ✭✭✭

    @yellowlover519 said:

    @kcap said:

    It's okay not to know the rules of golf or have no clue. My question in this topic is what you've answered. Would you/your child just let it go without penalty because they knew that the other player just didn't know. It's never been a topic on how/who to address a rule infraction. It's not intended to be a topic on how to address a rules infraction. It's a discussion on whether some players should be given leeway in tournaments irrespective of level of golf with disregard to the rest of the field. This was the first time in 70+ USKG events that I have ever heard a parent use as an excuse - why assess a stroke when it's his first tournament. I was just trying to get a feel if that's how loosey goosey a lot of local tours around the country are.

    Since you asked, my son would never enforce the penalty and has chosen on a Ziilion times not enforce the penalty. It is his choice and not mine. That said, if this was a not a first timer and knowingly or repeatedly violated the rules then he would assess the penalty. There are so many learning experiences for the new kids on the local tour, my son like to teach them and the parents the rules, where to take the drop where not to etc. rather assess a penalty on the kid that is lying 6 and will probably end up with a 10.

    Curious..after the dad told him that he cannot mark the ball did he still do it or was it already done so he went and put the ball back.

    And therein lies our philosophical difference. It's not about enforcing a penalty bc you want to enforce the penalty for the sake of your placement in the field. It has nothing to do with you. You have no idea what impact that penalty will have in a large field. If you are grouped in a pairing, you are not protecting your score v. theirs. You are protecting the entire field and hoping that you are being protected in return. I agree completely with this part I expected to be the responses to be the complete opposite (having re-read my post, I get that it could be read as me being a complete douche about the situation, but that wasn't the case when it happened - that was just shorthand writing). I expected the response to be along the lines of -- we should all teach our kids why the rules are important and how it is important to protect the integrity of the scores for the entire field in an event. Cheaters will eventually get caught. How minor the infraction is irrelevant. So, here, in my opinion, you're starting to lose me a bit. As has been said throughout this thread, there are shades of gray when it comes to handling these situations. Don't misunderstand me--I'm not suggesting there are shades of gray in the rules--I'm talking about the manner in which they are handled. It is VERY clear from your original post that the situation was handled in a very matter-of-fact and abrasive manner. You specifically stated the other father was not happy and the last 17 holes were not fun. Your attitude throughout this thread is also indicative of an unnecessarily abrasive and somewhat holier-than-thou attitude. A USKG Local Tour event is expected to have beginner level tournament players that may not have a full grasp on the rules. It is a perfect setting to teach, constructively, about the rules and how to apply them. If the other father knew the rules then a conversation with him about proper application would have been appropriate. Then, let him handle it with his kid. If the father did not, then an explanatory conversation with a soft touch would be appropriate--not an accusatory or declaratory statement. You were wrong in the way you handled the situation. You aren't wrong in applying the rules but the total context of the situation called for a different approach and you failed in that regard.
    I was at an AJGA event for another junior in our family and a kid he was paired with didn't want to bring up a penalty. The other player in their threesome did and my junior agreed to that happening. Finally, the kid that committed the penalty didn't want to sign an incorrect scorecard, so he reluctantly agreed. That kid's mom went apeshit. I was getting a feel of how loosey goosey local tours were around the country when it comes to rules and whether parent caddies were emphasizing rules and protecting the field at younger ages. Why the feeling of "it's his first tourney -- he didn't know."
    And before the crazy posts start coming, by "you" I mean the player.

    To answer your original question--and I have an 11 year old who has been in this exact situation with me on the bag--on a first time "innocent" infraction, by a clearly beginner player that does not gain a competitive advantage in any way, we generally bring up the rule/infraction, what should have been done differently/not done and let them know there should be a penalty for that and will be next time. If it is a player that knows, or should know the rules (based upon his level of play), then I have worked very hard to teach my son that he has a responsibility to protect the field--regardless of how uncomfortable it may be. I've also taught him to do so in as non-confrontational a manner is possible.

    I'll give you two examples that sort of exemplify what I'm talking about. We played, as 9 year olds, in a local tour event. Kid we are playing with is not good and has no chance of affecting anyone else out there. He makes an 8 the first hole and records a 7 to us. This is a competitive advantage. It was an accident, not an intentional cheat, but this situation had to be dealt with immediately and brought to conclusion. Same tour, different event, a player on the last hole has grounded their club in a bunker. The player is in the process of shooting a 70 on 9 holes and making a 10 on this, their final hole. I spoke with the parent caddie after the round and scores posted, explained the fact that you aren't allowed to ground your club in a bunker, what the penalty should be, and encouraged them to keep having fun and get better and that we enjoyed playing with them.

    The reason you are getting so much pushback in this thread is not because you enforced the rule on a beginner, it is because, quite honestly, it sounds like you were a jerk in so doing. And the way you've handled this thread throughout has done nothing to dispel that.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    I follow you. Believe what you want to believe on how the situation was handled. Where you and others are losing me is what is the unilateral competitive advantage ruling? If I moved a twig under a ball and the ball moves on top of another twig but I am in the same crappy lie do I not take a penalty bc I didn’t gain a competitive advantage?

  • kcapkcap Members Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    And therein lies our philosophical difference. It's not about enforcing a penalty bc you want to enforce the penalty for the sake of your placement in the field. It has nothing to do with you. You have no idea what impact that penalty will have in a large field. If you are grouped in a pairing, you are not protecting your score v. theirs. You are protecting the entire field and hoping that you are being protected in return. I expected to be the responses to be the complete opposite (having re-read my post, I get that it could be read as me being a complete douche about the situation, but that wasn't the case when it happened - that was just shorthand writing). I expected the response to be along the lines of -- we should all teach our kids why the rules are important and how it is important to protect the integrity of the scores for the entire field in an event. Cheaters will eventually get caught. How minor the infraction is irrelevant.

    i have never said, that we may or may not assess penalties because it has an impact on my sons placing or tying to protect the field.

    The difference and I actually believe the greater difference is that you assumed he was cheating or trying to cheat and did not care about the rules/scores etc. From your post it appears he inadvertently picked up the ball and his dad said you are not allowed to on the fringe so he put it back. That is the point, he was not trying to cheat and did not do it again. He is also a first timer that should count for something.

    If an experienced golfer made the same move, call a penalty, if an experienced Golfer moved a leaf and ball moved then sure penalize him!!

    Not everyone is trying to cheat or get the upper hand and everything is life is not about penalties in order to teach a lesson. Positive reinforcement goes a long way and now you will always be that “douche” in the tour!

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    Highly unlikely. You’re in the NE with an 11-year old boy as am I. I’m sure we know each other.

  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 341 ✭✭✭✭

    @yellowlover519 said:
    Highly unlikely. You’re in the NE with an 11-year old boy as am I. I’m sure we know each other.

    Ooohhh!!! Just when I thought this thread settled down- a cliffhanger!

  • kcapkcap Members Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    I hope we do! Oh wait, were You the guy who called a penalty on my son 3 yrs ago in his first tournament!!

  • AUSweeperAUSweeper Members Posts: 46 ✭✭

    @leezer99 said:

    @AUSweeper said:
    Maybe a better approach would have been to wait until the other competitor or dad announced their score then bring up the rules infraction. Its better to get it resolved before moving on to the next hole or at the scorers table.

    Should have hit them with the infraction after signing the card and DQ'd the kid. /s

    (yes, I know max is 10 on USKG Tour)

    Lol...true. Dad just standing over the table all giddy just waiting for the competing kid to sign the incorrect scorecard so he can spring the DQ on him.

  • yellowlover519yellowlover519 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    Hahaha AUSweeper - you’re one of those. Put him in a body sack Johnny!

  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    By all means note the penalty but do it in the right way. I would have a quite word with the dad so he could do the teaching. The line I always to use is - "I don't want your son to be penalized - the rules of golf do."

    The line may sound funny, but for me it has almost always been true. I typically would love to let a rule infraction slide, but I have no choice in the matter (unless I am in match play).

  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 341 ✭✭✭✭

    @2bGood said:
    The line may sound funny, but for me it has almost always been true. I typically would love to let a rule infraction slide, but I have no choice in the matter (unless I am in match play).

    I am intrigued by that last line. How do you have discretion to let rules slide in match play?

  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 4:48am #80

    @BertGA said:

    @2bGood said:
    The line may sound funny, but for me it has almost always been true. I typically would love to let a rule infraction slide, but I have no choice in the matter (unless I am in match play).

    I am intrigued by that last line. How do you have discretion to let rules slide in match play?

    In match play you can choose to ignore your opponents penalty as you only have yourself to protect (as long as you and you opponent don't collude to ignore penalties)
    - rule 3.2 D4
    "If the player knows or believes that the opponent has breached a Rule that has a penalty, the player may act on the breach or choose to ignore it."

    The next part of that rule goes on to say that you and you opponent can not agree to ignore rules (ie before you start you agree no penalty for marking on the fringe).

    It is a cool little part of match play that allows some common sense into the game.

  • Kcct82Kcct82 Members Posts: 126 ✭✭✭

    :D Epic! A full day of responses!

  • JuniorGolfParentJuniorGolfParent Members Posts: 75 ✭✭✭

    @yellowlover519 said:
    Have been doing USKG since my son was 5 (now 11). I think 10-12 you see a whole new influx of kids. Got paired the first fall tourney with a new dad and son. On the first hole, his son marked the ball on the fringe and picked up. At the end of the hole, I announced the score (assessed a one stroke penalty for picking up the ball) and his dad got mad. Said - it’s his first tourney; why would I assess a penalty. I responded — haven’t heard that as an excuse to not follow rules — just trying to protect the field (his son wasn’t going to place anyway). Wasn’t pleasant the following 17 holes but didn’t care.
    Why do some parents think that it’s okay to not follow rules when the majority does? Do you guys see that a lot? Even if the kid is going to finish near the bottom, what if last place followed every rule and would have finished second to last had the kid ahead of him took every stroke. Am I just naive to how stringent parents are on these USKG tours? I know at regional and worlds this is a nonissue, but I always tried to teach my son to be honest and accurate from the get go.

    Did he make the putt for par?

  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 2:25pm #83

    @yellowlover519 said:
    The point of the post was not whether it was confrontational or polite. The point was to gather information and thoughts on how loosely people are taking the rules at these junior events. I could care less how it is addressed and didn’t feel the need to explain how nice or an **** I was about the situation. I’m not looking for a pat on my back for addressing the situation correctly. I was merely asking if this is what others see happening on their local tours.

    The sad thing I came to conclusion is not rules are enforced uniformity in all groups at younger ages. This means the it is very much like a social outing more than a real tournament. This why you have to remember this why they do not really count towards anything long term.

    Years ago when I did a team match really bad weather club pro had their kid on the same team as me mentioned to me boy the weather was bad but I took a few strokes off and made sure they had better lies since he is just a kid. My kid scored really high that day and he was annoyed I didn't help her score. Needless to say It opened my eyes about what kids tournaments and how scores are not always what they seem. I also always laugh now when I see bad conditions and scores get way better in the younger groups can't help but thinking how the pro kicked the ball to a better lie or let them do over a new shot.

    The more honest you are in tournaments the better off you are going to be in the long run. It is very hard to remember this and it hard to speak up about this sort of thing without people jumping on you.

    If you want to improve and I mean truly improve and want your kid hoist trophy's that mean stuff protect the field and be honest. The data from honest scores will help them improve. It's amazing to see the score drop after you work on things that truly cost you on a tournament.

    Post edited by tiger1873 on
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Glad I have been busy and not involved with this thread.

    Here is the bottom line. Not everyone does things the same way. I see what YellowLover did and honestly don't have a problem with it. I also see the other side of the story that it could have been handled differently since it was the kid's first tournament. I would have probably leaned towards it being a teaching opportunity, but have no problem with what YellowLover did.

  • chrissdcchrissdc Members Posts: 64 ✭✭

    Just when I thought I was going to miss junior golf.

  • DavePelz4DavePelz4 A golf course in the Chicago area.ClubWRX Posts: 24,932 ClubWRX

    So I reached out to the US Kids Golf to get their take on the situation. Here's my note to them:
    This email comes from the contact form at U.S. Kids Golf. You can just reply to it, or respond to the email the sender (DP4) provided, [email protected]

    "General question being discussed on GolfWRX right now. Can a player's caddie assess a penalty on another player or, if there is a question on the score for an individual hole bring it up to the committee/referee at the event? Thankfully, my kids are 20+ years beyond the age for these events!"

    DP4,
    For all of U.S. Kids Golf events we abide by the rules of the USGA. Please contact the USGA for specific rules questions.
    Best,
    Anna G.
    Administrator Volunteers

    Nowhere in the USGA rules of golf does it state that anyone other than the player, a referee or committee can assess a penalty as noted in the OP.

  • mrshinsamrshinsa Members Posts: 223 ✭✭✭

    @DavePelz4 said:
    So I reached out to the US Kids Golf to get their take on the situation. Here's my note to them:
    This email comes from the contact form at U.S. Kids Golf. You can just reply to it, or respond to the email the sender (DP4) provided, [email protected]

    "General question being discussed on GolfWRX right now. Can a player's caddie assess a penalty on another player or, if there is a question on the score for an individual hole bring it up to the committee/referee at the event? Thankfully, my kids are 20+ years beyond the age for these events!"

    DP4,
    For all of U.S. Kids Golf events we abide by the rules of the USGA. Please contact the USGA for specific rules questions.
    Best,
    Anna G.
    Administrator Volunteers

    Nowhere in the USGA rules of golf does it state that anyone other than the player, a referee or committee can assess a penalty as noted in the OP.

    At our local tour, the starter reminds everyone the following. "Caddies are not rule officials. If there are any ruling issue, call a rule official. If any doubt play two balls. "

  • jholzjholz Members Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @DavePelz4 said:
    So I reached out to the US Kids Golf to get their take on the situation. Here's my note to them:
    This email comes from the contact form at U.S. Kids Golf. You can just reply to it, or respond to the email the sender (DP4) provided, [email protected]

    "General question being discussed on GolfWRX right now. Can a player's caddie assess a penalty on another player or, if there is a question on the score for an individual hole bring it up to the committee/referee at the event? Thankfully, my kids are 20+ years beyond the age for these events!"

    DP4,
    For all of U.S. Kids Golf events we abide by the rules of the USGA. Please contact the USGA for specific rules questions.
    Best,
    Anna G.
    Administrator Volunteers

    Nowhere in the USGA rules of golf does it state that anyone other than the player, a referee or committee can assess a penalty as noted in the OP.

    **** Dave, going the extra mile here. You've obviously got a point.

    Indeed, you have been and remain correct in your assertion that it is the responsibility of the player (in this case "the child") to keep track of opponents' scores and assess penalties where appropriate in USKG competition. Beyond this, I have always been on your side when it comes to Mr. Yellowlover's rather confusing descriptions of the event. Sometimes it sounds like he was actively assessing the penalty. Other times, that his child assessed the penalty, and he merely confirmed it when writing down the scores after the completion of the hole.

    Clearly, the crux of the matter lies in the difference between those two descriptions. If it's the first case, then the OP's actions would be out of bounds. If it's the second, then he would have been acting correctly.

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    Cleveland Launcher HB 10.5* - Stock Miyazaki C. Kua 50 Stiff
    Callaway Diablo Octane Tour 13* - Aldila NV 75 Stiff
    or
    Callaway Diablo Edge Tour 15* - Accra Dymatch M5 75
    Mizuno F-50 18* - Stock Stiff
    or
    Callaway Diablo Edge Tour Hybrid 21* - Aldila NV 85 Stiff
    Callaway RAZR Tour Hybrid 24* - Stock XStiff
    5 - PW Cleveland CG7 Tour Black Pearl - DGSL S300
    Vokey Design 200 Series 52* Stock Wedge (?)
    Cleveland CG15 Oilcan 56* Stock Wedge
    Callaway X-Series JAWS Slate CC 58* Stock Wedge
    Odyssey White Ice #7 - Golf Pride Oversize
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @jholz said:

    @DavePelz4 said:
    So I reached out to the US Kids Golf to get their take on the situation. Here's my note to them:
    This email comes from the contact form at U.S. Kids Golf. You can just reply to it, or respond to the email the sender (DP4) provided, [email protected]

    "General question being discussed on GolfWRX right now. Can a player's caddie assess a penalty on another player or, if there is a question on the score for an individual hole bring it up to the committee/referee at the event? Thankfully, my kids are 20+ years beyond the age for these events!"

    DP4,
    For all of U.S. Kids Golf events we abide by the rules of the USGA. Please contact the USGA for specific rules questions.
    Best,
    Anna G.
    Administrator Volunteers

    Nowhere in the USGA rules of golf does it state that anyone other than the player, a referee or committee can assess a penalty as noted in the OP.

    **** Dave, going the extra mile here. You've obviously got a point.

    Indeed, you have been and remain correct in your assertion that it is the responsibility of the player (in this case "the child") to keep track of opponents' scores and assess penalties where appropriate in USKG competition. Beyond this, I have always been on your side when it comes to Mr. Yellowlover's rather confusing descriptions of the event. Sometimes it sounds like he was actively assessing the penalty. Other times, that his child assessed the penalty, and he merely confirmed it when writing down the scores after the completion of the hole.

    Clearly, the crux of the matter lies in the difference between those two descriptions. If it's the first case, then the OP's actions would be out of bounds. If it's the second, then he would have been acting correctly.

    Finally, and this is my real bone to pick, those of you who are arguing that we should not assess penalties in USKG competitions because they are "only kids" or "it's their first tournament" are clearly in the wrong. USKG just confirmed it.

    I can understand where the drive to not assess penalties at this level of competition comes from, and I applaud all of you who are actively invested in helping kids learn and have fun. There's nothing wrong with that.

    But, why not just prepare kids for the true nature of tournament golf? Let them know ahead of time that if they do something against the rules, they will get a penalty. Reinforce this when you play casual rounds with them (i.e. teaching them the game). Simply put, if you want your kids to play tournament golf, then prepare them for tournament golf - regardless of how old they may be or the level of competition.

    It is a fine line.

    Was playing in a USKG local a few years ago. We were on hole 14 and a kid we were playing with was already skirting 100. Kid hits his ball OB and dad starts walking and says "Let's go see if we can find it." Put everything in perspective here because we are in Florida and the kid is using a range finder his dad used for hunting and dad was decked in camo. I said "He should probably hit a provisional. It is OB." His dad looked at me and said in his southern accent "Are you kidding me? If he isn't in last place already I'll kiss your ****. If it is OB, he can drop a ball and play out the hole then write 10 on the scorecard. It won't make a difference at this point. I don't want to slow no one else down."

    Seriously, what do you say to that?

  • wildcatdenwildcatden China Cat Sunflower Members Posts: 977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is the horse dead yet?

    -- Two things don't last long. Dogs chasing cars and golf pro's putting for pars. --

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