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If you've hard-stepped your irons...

hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭

...how did you know when you arrived at the right flex for you?

like many amateurs i could probably unwittingly adapt a swing for shafts as stiff as rebar or an alignment stick and everything in between. not saying it would be ideal, but like a lot of people i've simply learned to make do with what i have instead of honing in on the perfect flex. now i want to change that.

for those of you who've gone stiffer, would you please share your experience? what did you learn or notice that was unusual or unexpected? what would you recommend to others going down a similar path?

thank you!

p.s. i would understand and appreciate advice to go through a fitting but that's not the kind of solution i'm after. i'm more interested in improving feel than manipulating launch monitor numbers and hope to learn from others who've customized their clubs for similar reasons. cheers!

any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

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Comments

  • ProfessorDaveProfessorDave Members Posts: 52 ✭✭

    Are you using taper tip shafts? I’m guessing that is the case, as finding a between flex is fairly easy with parallels.
    I’m grossly over simplifying, but hard stepping adds about a half flex. Again, I’m being general here...every shaft is different.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭

    @ProfessorDave said:
    Are you using taper tip shafts? I’m guessing that is the case, as finding a between flex is fairly easy with parallels.
    I’m grossly over simplifying, but hard stepping adds about a half flex. Again, I’m being general here...every shaft is different.

    indeed, i am. i'm also familiar with how to do it and its effects.

    i suppose what i'm hoping for is feedback from people who've hard-stepped based on feel -- does that make sense? for example, how did they zero in on what felt the best? did they start off with something likely too stiff (e.g. 2") and then back down? and so forth...

    i know eventually i'll have to find something that works for me but in the meantime i'd be interested in how others have gone about this, if possible. however, i understand this is may be an uncommon approach and feedback may not be available.

    thanks!

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProfessorDave said:
    Are you using taper tip shafts? I’m guessing that is the case, as finding a between flex is fairly easy with parallels.
    I’m grossly over simplifying, but hard stepping adds about a half flex. Again, I’m being general here...every shaft is different.

    Hard stepping gains 3-4 CPM depending on shaft, what we do is simply using a head 7 grams lighter than that shaft was designed for, and 7 grams is average 3.5 SWP = 3.5 CPM so we are not close to half a flex but 1/3.

  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @hoselpalooza said:
    ...how did you know when you arrived at the right flex for you?

    like many amateurs i could probably unwittingly adapt a swing for shafts as stiff as rebar or an alignment stick and everything in between. not saying it would be ideal, but like a lot of people i've simply learned to make do with what i have instead of honing in on the perfect flex. now i want to change that.

    for those of you who've gone stiffer, would you please share your experience? what did you learn or notice that was unusual or unexpected? what would you recommend to others going down a similar path?

    thank you!

    p.s. i would understand and appreciate advice to go through a fitting but that's not the kind of solution i'm after. i'm more interested in improving feel than manipulating launch monitor numbers and hope to learn from others who've customized their clubs for similar reasons. cheers!

    You did NOT want a suggestion that say go and get fit, but this is a suggestion of that, but not the way you though.
    There is no need to see a club fitter, but you need a helper to observe you swing the club. We can judge both weight and feel of flex from the outside (the helper can SEE if its right), but you want find a fitting option like that no matter where you go since this is my concept and not whats common out there unless you go to Denmark and one of my former students.

    For FLEX its quite simple. The helper shall pay attention to the FACE of the player. Body language never lies, so if feel of flex is to strong the players FACE will change to "i will kill that ball" look, you can see aggression in his face (he want look pretty), its no doubt, while the player himself is NOT aware of that his face told the truth. (this could also be caused be weight so look into that too, how to judge weight by visual inspection of the swing, described in the link below).

    All basics of the concept VISUAL FITTING is described here. Used correct we can trigger the players swing into the right path for tempo and use of power. Flex is a trigger for how much power the player will use on that club, so if we go to strong, its visible in the players face, and we will also see that he is swinging out of his shoes to make the shaft feel and play as he wants to. Some players benefit from a softer feeling shaft than they play, other a stronger.

    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/7871739#Comment_7871739

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 6:11am #6

    @Howard Jones said:
    Hard stepping gains 3-4 CPM depending on shaft, what we do is simply using a head 7 grams lighter than that shaft was designed for, and 7 grams is average 3.5 SWP = 3.5 CPM so we are not close to half a flex but 1/3.
    @Howard Jones said:
    You did NOT want a suggestion that say go and get fit, but this is a suggestion of that, but not the way you though.
    There is no need to see a club fitter, but you need a helper to observe you swing the club. We can judge both weight and feel of flex from the outside (the helper can SEE if its right), but you want find a fitting option like that no matter where you go since this is my concept and not whats common out there unless you go to Denmark and one of my former students.

    For FLEX its quite simple. The helper shall pay attention to the FACE of the player. Body language never lies, so if feel of flex is to strong the players FACE will change to "i will kill that ball" look, you can see aggression in his face (he want look pretty), its no doubt, while the player himself is NOT aware of that his face told the truth. (this could also be caused be weight so look into that too, how to judge weight by visual inspection of the swing, described in the link below).

    All basics of the concept VISUAL FITTING is described here. Used correct we can trigger the players swing into the right path for tempo and use of power. Flex is a trigger for how much power the player will use on that club, so if we go to strong, its visible in the players face, and we will also see that he is swinging out of his shoes to make the shaft feel and play as he wants to. Some players benefit from a softer feeling shaft than they play, other a stronger.

    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/7871739#Comment_7871739

    @Howard Jones ,

    thank you for sharing. i hope someone will learn something new and helpful when they come across your comment in the future. in the meantime, i'd really appreciate it if we could keep the discussion focused on OP -- getting feedback from people who've hard-stepped their irons or perhaps even tipped their woods to arrive at a feel they liked.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Its a direct answer to your own questions the way they was formulated.

    " please share your experience? what did you learn or notice that was unusual or unexpected? what would you recommend to others going down a similar path?... i'm more interested in improving feel "

    Thats why you got the reply you did, it tells what to expect like you asked for, its ALL about the feel you try to improve, and when we have gone to far, and i explained how flex works, but if you are not interested, i dont understand why you asked the questions you did.

  • RogerinNewZealandRogerinNewZealand Maungakeikei Auckland New ZealandMembers Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Howard
    Top Points re Players Face!! and Killit Look...under stress! Superb says i who dropped to DGR300 so i can kill it with a Smile

    2019 September nice bag

    Titleist 909d2 9.5
    Tm M1 21 hybrid'16
     
    Mizuno MP 63 DGR300 at D4

    Old SM at 54 and SM6 58S 10
    Ping B60 
    DarkTanTitleistCap

  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 8:42am #9

    @RogerinNewZealand said:
    Howard
    Top Points re Players Face!! and Killit Look...under stress! Superb says i who dropped to DGR300 so i can kill it with a Smile

    If you pay attention to this player, (LPGA player Daisy Nielsen), you will see it all looks fine, until the 2 last strokes with her driver where ive added 3 grams shaft weight. We goes up one gram at the time (the lead tape is added on the shafts BP and is visible on the video).

    Its enough to change the players face totally, (arms around 8 o clock in her swing), but this is not what the OP wants to know about it, or what feel of flex or shaft weight does when we have gone to far, so lets not high jack his tread so he can get the answers he wants.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 11:13am #10

    @Howard Jones said:
    Its a direct answer to your own questions the way they was formulated.

    " please share your experience? what did you learn or notice that was unusual or unexpected? what would you recommend to others going down a similar path?... i'm more interested in improving feel "

    Thats why you got the reply you did, it tells what to expect like you asked for, its ALL about the feel you try to improve, and when we have gone to far, and i explained how flex works, but if you are not interested, i dont understand why you asked the questions you did.
    @Howard Jones said:
    If you pay attention to this player, (LPGA player Daisy Nielsen), you will see it all looks fine, until the 2 last strokes with her driver where ive added 3 grams shaft weight. We goes up one gram at the time (the lead tape is added on the shafts BP and is visible on the video).

    Its enough to change the players face totally, (arms around 8 o clock in her swing), but this is not what the OP wants to know about it, or what feel of flex or shaft weight does when we have gone to far, so lets not high jack his tread so he can get the answers he wants.

    @Howard Jones , firstly, i think it's cool you're working with daisy nielsen; she has a beautiful swing.

    secondly, i think you may have skipped over the very first question in OP:

    If you've hard-stepped your irons, how did you know when you arrived at the right flex for you?

    i thought this would make it clear that i'm interested in hard-stepping from a player's perspective. this is why i did not find your responses helpful. none of your responses include much (if any?) info about how you or your players hard-step their clubs; rather, you discuss adding/removing weight from the club which is not something i'm interested in now. and instead of discussing different feels from a player's perspective you mention how their face will tell you when it's too stiff. even though this is interesting i don't find it particularly helpful because it has nothing to do with a player's description of feel or how the player knows when a shaft is too stiff.

    please let me know if i can make this any more clear.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 12:00pm #11

    Its a shame you dont get it....its still the answer to your question, but you dont see it, so let me try explain it again.

    If you hard step a set Constant weight shafts, we ADD weight equal to 0.5", who sounds like "nothing", but if we are on the edge of total/shaft weight, it might be "over and beyond", so the FIRST we should try, is to add the weight that will be added when hard stepping, for a 130 grams shaft about 1.7 to 1.8 grams. If thats no problem, we can move on.
    (its for a reason some like S300, other S400, and its only about 2 grams, and the Video of Daisy Nielsen is 3 grams on the last stroke, then we came over and beyond)

    Next is FLEX, we go about 1/3 of a flex stronger in irons by HS1, its mostly a fine tune of feel, not much happen to ball flight if anything, while if we go further to HS2, we will feel a way stronger change than HS1 (feel of flex is progressive, so HS2 feels like more than the double of HS1 and thats why many overdo it, it was "not strong enough" at HS1, while HS2 becomes to strong.

    BOTH the weight AND the flex issue is VISIBLE on the player, and even if we ask the player "how it feels" we will hardly ever get the answer we are able to SEE when he swing the club. The real issue for the player MIGHT be that during a round, a flex to strong will drain him for power before hole 18, and that leads him into swing flaws and mistakes, so we have to be careful with flex, dont go to strong, but strong enough.

    For woods or Graphite it works the same way, while measured flex dont tell the same story. Graphites only respond with 1 CPM for each 2/8" tip trim as average, and way to many club makers with a CPM reader has made a "chart on the wall" their "Bible for flex", only to experience that "numbers and feel" is NOT compatible and dont tell the same story. The progressive feel and flight is equal for steel and Graphites.

    For testing, its hard to try off "stiffer" using the shaft we got, without actually tip trim or Hard step it, but we can simulate the gain off weight when hard stepping constant weight by lead tape, and we can by adding weight to the head get a certain idea of what changes that would be going stronger by going the opposite way (adding head weight makes THAT shaft softer, and for Graphite woods 0.5" inch tip trim is to compensate for 10 grams head weight ( 7 grams on irons), so if you add 10 grams (or 7 on the irons), and remove it again, you got a pretty good idea of how much of a difference tipping 0.5 will change flex before you do it.

    For Graphite we can use 1/8" = 2.5 grams added weight, so if you add 5 grams and remove it after a few shots, you get the idea of how this shaft will respond to 2/8" tip trim.

    When hard stepping irons, we end up with the shortest shaft "strait in", we cant hard step that one by moving shafts like with the others, but we can TIP trim it, even if its a taper tip shaft. Tip trimming on tapers is also used in cases we want the flex from HS1, but DONT want the added few grams that follows, thats how we can avoid them.

    And to answer the last question you launch, "If you've hard-stepped your irons, how did you know when you arrived at the right flex for you?" your helper would be able to SEE it, even if you dont feel it, thats why i suggested to start with that you do it all with some help from a playing Buddy, he dont have to be a "club fitter" at all when he knows what to look for.

    When flex AND weight is right, he will see a swing with good tempo. good float and balance in ALL stages of the swing, and NO "i will kill that ball" in his face, some player even smile when its right.

    Feel of flex and feel in general is VERY subjective, we have endless numbers of questions in here where a player express his love for one shaft profile...to end up with something completely different that felt better, so its only one way here, Trial and error, and im only trying to prevent you from making mistakes and "just do it", but try off what we can WITHOUT modifying as planned so we have a better idea of how that will work for YOU.

    Good luck anyway, i do hope you find some of this info useful, even if it was hard for you to see the relevance.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭

    @Howard Jones said:
    Its a shame you dont get it....its still the answer to your question, but you dont see it, so let me try explain it again.

    If you hard step a set Constant weight shafts, we ADD weight equal to 0.5", who sounds like "nothing", but if we are on the edge of total/shaft weight, it might be "over and beyond", so the FIRST we should try, is to add the weight that will be added when hard stepping, for a 130 grams shaft about 1.7 to 1.8 grams. If thats no problem, we can move on.
    (its for a reason some like S300, other S400, and its only about 2 grams, and the Video of Daisy Nielsen is 3 grams on the last stroke, then we came over and beyond)

    Next is FLEX, we go about 1/3 of a flex stronger in irons by HS1, its mostly a fine tune of feel, not much happen to ball flight if anything, while if we go further to HS2, we will feel a way stronger change than HS1 (feel of flex is progressive, so HS2 feels like more than the double of HS1 and thats why many overdo it, it was "not strong enough" at HS1, while HS2 becomes to strong.

    BOTH the weight AND the flex issue is VISIBLE on the player, and even if we ask the player "how it feels" we will hardly ever get the answer we are able to SEE when he swing the club. The real issue for the player MIGHT be that during a round, a flex to strong will drain him for power before hole 18, and that leads him into swing flaws and mistakes, so we have to be careful with flex, dont go to strong, but strong enough.

    For woods or Graphite it works the same way, while measured flex dont tell the same story. Graphites only respond with 1 CPM for each 2/8" tip trim as average, and way to many club makers with a CPM reader has made a "chart on the wall" their "Bible for flex", only to experience that "numbers and feel" is NOT compatible and dont tell the same story. The progressive feel and flight is equal for steel and Graphites.

    For testing, its hard to try off "stiffer" using the shaft we got, without actually tip trim or Hard step it, but we can simulate the gain off weight when hard stepping constant weight by lead tape, and we can by adding weight to the head get a certain idea of what changes that would be going stronger by going the opposite way (adding head weight makes THAT shaft softer, and for Graphite woods 0.5" inch tip trim is to compensate for 10 grams head weight ( 7 grams on irons), so if you add 10 grams (or 7 on the irons), and remove it again, you got a pretty good idea of how much of a difference tipping 0.5 will change flex before you do it.

    For Graphite we can use 1/8" = 2.5 grams added weight, so if you add 5 grams and remove it after a few shots, you get the idea of how this shaft will respond to 2/8" tip trim.

    When hard stepping irons, we end up with the shortest shaft "strait in", we cant hard step that one by moving shafts like with the others, but we can TIP trim it, even if its a taper tip shaft. Tip trimming on tapers is also used in cases we want the flex from HS1, but DONT want the added few grams that follows, thats how we can avoid them.

    And to answer the last question you launch, "If you've hard-stepped your irons, how did you know when you arrived at the right flex for you?" your helper would be able to SEE it, even if you dont feel it, thats why i suggested to start with that you do it all with some help from a playing Buddy, he dont have to be a "club fitter" at all when he knows what to look for.

    When flex AND weight is right, he will see a swing with good tempo. good float and balance in ALL stages of the swing, and NO "i will kill that ball" in his face, some player even smile when its right.

    Feel of flex and feel in general is VERY subjective, we have endless numbers of questions in here where a player express his love for one shaft profile...to end up with something completely different that felt better, so its only one way here, Trial and error, and im only trying to prevent you from making mistakes and "just do it", but try off what we can WITHOUT modifying as planned so we have a better idea of how that will work for YOU.

    Good luck anyway, i do hope you find some of this info useful, even if it was hard for you to see the relevance.

    @Howard Jones , thanks, there are some useful nuggets in there. i start with 130g c-tapers, build up the grips which weigh about 75g with tape, and then add some weight back to the club head so i can feel it (another 4g-6g for irons). i've thought about testing more weight under the grips with an adjustable weight system but since my long irons are already 450g+ i thought it would make sense to try hard stepping now. though perhaps i should find out how much weight i can comfortably handle first?

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Weight is #2 in importance, balance is #3 while flex is further down, and mostly a trigger for how much power we put on the club, but if it dont feel right, it aint right.

    About your grip weight...thats heavy stuff, i play 72 grams Jumbo myself, but try to get down to the 60 area now.
    We should avoid using the SW scale to judge head weight or SW when we go above a standard grip. Balance point does change, while feel of head weight can no longer be trusted by SW values, they often misleads us, making us to add weight on a already to heavy club, so unless you really lost feel of the heads, dont add that much head weight.

    The amount you talk about as added head weight is close to "1 head shorter", so flex goes SS1 for that reason, and then your thinking about hard stepping is right to get back to where it all started from, but look for other grip weight option if thats whats causing it all, there is always a lighter option, and hard stepping makes a need for new shafts or extensions = even more weight added....a bad circle really, so i suggest you look for other grip weight options to solve this.

  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,924 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 7:22pm #14

    Hard stepping and soft stepping Taper Tip shafts increases or decreases about half-a-flex, least that is what I was told by an OEM. I recently tested hard and soft-stepping on some taper tip shafts and didn't like the feel or down-range result of either, so went to "S". I knew when each club felt smooth at impact and trajectory looked right to me, nothing more.

    IF you want accuracy in launch numbers then make sure you use a reputable and calibrated launch monitor and have your clubs built by a club-fitter using parallel tip shafts. They can narrow each shaft down to an exact frequency. Taper tip shafts which are what I play don't have that same adjustability, as it becomes a costly guess in one direction or the other.

    • Titleist TS2 9.5, PX HZRDUS Red 65
    • Titleist 917D2 15*, PX HZRDUS Red 75
    • Titleist 716T-MB 17* 2 iron, Steelfiber i95cw "S"
    • Titleist 716CB 3i-PW, Steelfiber i95cw "S"
    • SM6 F-52*, Steelfiber i110cw "S"
    • SM6 M-58*, DG-S200
    • SC California Monterey
    • ProV1





  • huckitchuckithuckitchuckit California Members Posts: 85 ✭✭✭

    @hoselpalooza Howard just wont let it go will he haha

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭

    @Howard Jones said:
    Weight is #2 in importance, balance is #3 while flex is further down, and mostly a trigger for how much power we put on the club, but if it dont feel right, it aint right.

    About your grip weight...thats heavy stuff, i play 72 grams Jumbo myself, but try to get down to the 60 area now.
    We should avoid using the SW scale to judge head weight or SW when we go above a standard grip. Balance point does change, while feel of head weight can no longer be trusted by SW values, they often misleads us, making us to add weight on a already to heavy club, so unless you really lost feel of the heads, dont add that much head weight.

    The amount you talk about as added head weight is close to "1 head shorter", so flex goes SS1 for that reason, and then your thinking about hard stepping is right to get back to where it all started from, but look for other grip weight option if thats whats causing it all, there is always a lighter option, and hard stepping makes a need for new shafts or extensions = even more weight added....a bad circle really, so i suggest you look for other grip weight options to solve this.

    thanks for your comments.

    real quick, i just want to mention a few reasons why i'm going down this path. i used to play baseball and my bat was probably in the neighborhood of 1000g. standard golf clubs feel like toothpicks in comparison and i struggled with golf swing changes in the past because i lacked the sensitivity to the lighter weight. my big misses are pulls/hooks and i've found the heavier/stiffer i go, the more difficult it is to miss it left. in the future i plan to experiment with lighter clubs but for now i want to go as heavy as possible while still making a technically sound swing.

    as for SW, i don't use a scale and i'm not really concerned with SW numbers. instead, i just add weight to the head until it feels right. when i first built up my grips it felt like i could swing my clubs as fast as an alignment stick! this was exciting but unfortunately my tempo and transition move suffered because i lost track of the club head during the swing. perhaps over time i will develop better sensitivity and be able to reduce head weight but for now the added weight does not seem to impact distance, accuracy, or feel.

    separately, i'm glad you challenged my thinking on this. i still plan to hard step my irons but chatting with you has helped me realize i can continue to add more weight first -- much easier and cheaper than pulling, extending, and re-gripping shafts.

    i suppose i should figure out the impact of adding weight to different parts of the club, like near the butt or BP. do you have suggestions? thanks!

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭

    @Pepperturbo said:
    I knew when each club felt smooth at impact and trajectory looked right to me, nothing more.

    this is helpful, thanks. seems like perhaps the best solution for me is to experiment with (e.g.) a spare long iron and compare it against my current set-up.

    @huckitchuckit said:
    @hoselpalooza Howard just wont let it go will he haha

    ha! i appreciate his enthusiasm and persistence. definitely a different perspective than what i was after but i think it was helpful in the end.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,924 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @hoselpalooza said:

    @Pepperturbo said:
    I knew when each club felt smooth at impact and trajectory looked right to me, nothing more.

    this is helpful, thanks. seems like perhaps the best solution for me is to experiment with (e.g.) a spare long iron and compare it against my current set-up.

    To me, swing weight plays an important roll in a club feeling right during my swing. I am a hitter of the ball, while others are swingers of the club. Both my tempo and transition are fast, yet I still need to feel the clubhead at the top.

    I recently went from 120 gram PX 6.0 shafts to much lighter Steelfiber i95cw "S" shafts. I was anticipating potential problem adjusting to the weight and flex difference reason I messed with hard and soft stepping. As it turns out there has been only a minimal adjustment. My new shafts were designed for players like me moving from steel to lighter graphite/steel, yet they have stiff butt and tips, so swing weight change wasn't noticeable.

    • Titleist TS2 9.5, PX HZRDUS Red 65
    • Titleist 917D2 15*, PX HZRDUS Red 75
    • Titleist 716T-MB 17* 2 iron, Steelfiber i95cw "S"
    • Titleist 716CB 3i-PW, Steelfiber i95cw "S"
    • SM6 F-52*, Steelfiber i110cw "S"
    • SM6 M-58*, DG-S200
    • SC California Monterey
    • ProV1





  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭

    @Pepperturbo said:

    @hoselpalooza said:

    @Pepperturbo said:
    I knew when each club felt smooth at impact and trajectory looked right to me, nothing more.

    this is helpful, thanks. seems like perhaps the best solution for me is to experiment with (e.g.) a spare long iron and compare it against my current set-up.

    To me, swing weight plays an important roll in a club feeling right during my swing. I am a hitter of the ball, while others are swingers of the club. Both my tempo and transition are fast, yet I still need to feel the clubhead at the top.

    I recently went from 120 gram PX 6.0 shafts to much lighter Steelfiber i95cw "S" shafts. I was anticipating potential problem adjusting to the weight and flex difference reason I messed with hard and soft stepping. As it turns out there has been only a minimal adjustment. My new shafts were designed for players like me moving from steel to lighter graphite/steel, yet they have stiff butt and tips, so swing weight change wasn't noticeable.

    what was the impact on distance? other changes in performance?

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members Posts: 18,816 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Pepperturbo said:
    Hard stepping and soft stepping Taper Tip shafts increases or decreases about half-a-flex, least that is what I was told by an OEM.

    This is incorrect. Shame on any OEM that told you that.
    It takes about 3 steps to change one full flex. Of course it doesn't really work that way but that's a general rule of them.

    Realize that hard stepping has more problems than soft stepping. For one thing hard stepping with pulls results in each club being 1/2" short of the old length so you must add extensions (blah.) Another thing is that you will have to use wedge shafts in your 9 or maybe even the 8. Soft stepping is a lot cleaner because you just need to buy one (or two) new shafts and then step away and shorten each club at the butt as needed to proper playing length.

    Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Rogue Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S
    Ping Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,495 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 11, 2019 10:35pm #21

    I like my irons to play about the same flex as my woods. Play my woods at 6.5. Use the shaft chart that I believe is still pinned to find out how to get the shaft to 6.5. I hard stepped ctaper 120s to get there. They play fine.

    Hard stepping and soft stepping (at least in ctapers) won't change feel one bit. I soft stepped my 4iron after playing the same shaft hard stepped. Absolutley no difference in feel. But launch and spin came up a bit, which is what I was after.

    Don't complicate iron shafts too much. Find a flex that works and either go straight in, soft step, or hard step. Thinking too much will just cause doubt after you've shafted the things.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭

    @getitdaily said:
    I like my irons to play about the same flex as my woods. Play my woods at 6.5. Use the shaft chart that I believe is still pinned to find out how to get the shaft to 6.5. I hard stepped ctaper 120s to get there. They play fine.

    Hard stepping and soft stepping (at least in ctapers) won't change feel one bit. I soft stepped my 4iron after playing the same shaft hard stepped. Absolutley no difference in feel. But launch and spin came up a bit, which is what I was after.

    how much did you hard/soft step your c-tapers?

    Don't complicate iron shafts too much. Find a flex that works and either go straight in, soft step, or hard step. Thinking too much will just cause doubt after you've shafted the things.

    here's an alternate view: i want the shafts on my PW or 9i to feel and perform differently than my 2i or 3i because those clubs have different jobs. for me, wedges and short irons should be as heavy as possible and have just enough flex to spin the ball when necessary. long irons should be as stiff as possible -- i don't want to feel the shaft bend -- so i never think about losing the ball left.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,495 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 12, 2019 1:12am #23

    @hoselpalooza said:

    @getitdaily said:
    I like my irons to play about the same flex as my woods. Play my woods at 6.5. Use the shaft chart that I believe is still pinned to find out how to get the shaft to 6.5. I hard stepped ctaper 120s to get there. They play fine.

    Hard stepping and soft stepping (at least in ctapers) won't change feel one bit. I soft stepped my 4iron after playing the same shaft hard stepped. Absolutley no difference in feel. But launch and spin came up a bit, which is what I was after.

    how much did you hard/soft step your c-tapers?

    Don't complicate iron shafts too much. Find a flex that works and either go straight in, soft step, or hard step. Thinking too much will just cause doubt after you've shafted the things.

    here's an alternate view: i want the shafts on my PW or 9i to feel and perform differently than my 2i or 3i because those clubs have different jobs. for me, wedges and short irons should be as heavy as possible and have just enough flex to spin the ball when necessary. long irons should be as stiff as possible -- i don't want to feel the shaft bend -- so i never think about losing the ball left.

    Hard stepped once.

    You're thinking too much about it. At most, soft step 4 iron and maybe 5 iron. Play every other shaft exactly the same.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭

    @getitdaily said:

    @hoselpalooza said:

    @getitdaily said:
    I like my irons to play about the same flex as my woods. Play my woods at 6.5. Use the shaft chart that I believe is still pinned to find out how to get the shaft to 6.5. I hard stepped ctaper 120s to get there. They play fine.

    Hard stepping and soft stepping (at least in ctapers) won't change feel one bit. I soft stepped my 4iron after playing the same shaft hard stepped. Absolutley no difference in feel. But launch and spin came up a bit, which is what I was after.

    how much did you hard/soft step your c-tapers?

    Don't complicate iron shafts too much. Find a flex that works and either go straight in, soft step, or hard step. Thinking too much will just cause doubt after you've shafted the things.

    here's an alternate view: i want the shafts on my PW or 9i to feel and perform differently than my 2i or 3i because those clubs have different jobs. for me, wedges and short irons should be as heavy as possible and have just enough flex to spin the ball when necessary. long irons should be as stiff as possible -- i don't want to feel the shaft bend -- so i never think about losing the ball left.

    Hard stepped once.

    You're thinking too much about it. At most, soft step 4 iron and maybe 5 iron. Play every other shaft exactly the same.

    agree to disagree. we clearly have different approaches to this. i'll stick with mine, you stick with yours. no worries either way. and thanks for sharing your opinions.

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 12, 2019 3:42am #25

    @hoselpalooza said:

    @Howard Jones said:
    Weight is #2 in importance, balance is #3 while flex is further down, and mostly a trigger for how much power we put on the club, but if it dont feel right, it aint right.

    About your grip weight...thats heavy stuff, i play 72 grams Jumbo myself, but try to get down to the 60 area now.
    We should avoid using the SW scale to judge head weight or SW when we go above a standard grip. Balance point does change, while feel of head weight can no longer be trusted by SW values, they often misleads us, making us to add weight on a already to heavy club, so unless you really lost feel of the heads, dont add that much head weight.

    The amount you talk about as added head weight is close to "1 head shorter", so flex goes SS1 for that reason, and then your thinking about hard stepping is right to get back to where it all started from, but look for other grip weight option if thats whats causing it all, there is always a lighter option, and hard stepping makes a need for new shafts or extensions = even more weight added....a bad circle really, so i suggest you look for other grip weight options to solve this.

    thanks for your comments.

    real quick, i just want to mention a few reasons why i'm going down this path. i used to play baseball and my bat was probably in the neighborhood of 1000g. standard golf clubs feel like toothpicks in comparison and i struggled with golf swing changes in the past because i lacked the sensitivity to the lighter weight. my big misses are pulls/hooks and i've found the heavier/stiffer i go, the more difficult it is to miss it left. in the future i plan to experiment with lighter clubs but for now i want to go as heavy as possible while still making a technically sound swing.

    as for SW, i don't use a scale and i'm not really concerned with SW numbers. instead, i just add weight to the head until it feels right. when i first built up my grips it felt like i could swing my clubs as fast as an alignment stick! this was exciting but unfortunately my tempo and transition move suffered because i lost track of the club head during the swing. perhaps over time i will develop better sensitivity and be able to reduce head weight but for now the added weight does not seem to impact distance, accuracy, or feel.

    separately, i'm glad you challenged my thinking on this. i still plan to hard step my irons but chatting with you has helped me realize i can continue to add more weight first -- much easier and cheaper than pulling, extending, and re-gripping shafts.

    i suppose i should figure out the impact of adding weight to different parts of the club, like near the butt or BP. do you have suggestions? thanks!

    About where we add weight
    Grip side is where we can add most weight. and if you comes from Baseball, i suggest you look at Jumbomax grips, they will feel more natural in your hands, and their large diameter makes it very hard to end in the left side. Like with all other heavy grips, some players feels the need for added head weight after adding this grips, others dont, thats individual, but IMO Jumbomax is a strange fellow, super heavy without taking away to much feel of head weight, so that might be the right grip for you, both for weight and a feel thats closer to a baseball bat. Weight is above 120 grams on the classic models.

    Shaft. This is where we normally manipulate total weight up or down, but you are already almost at the end of that road with 130 grams shafts, not many is above that, and those who are, only a few grams, and if you dont mind lead tape on your clubs, placing lead tape "head to grip direction" on the underside of the shaft, starting from the shafts PB (most is very close to the center of the shaft), and go out in both direction from that point. Since we are on the "head side" of the SW scales fulcrum, adding shaft weight is adding feel of head weight too, but this addition to feel of head weight DONT soften the shaft like added head weight itself does, but the effect (feel of more head weight) is not huge.

    Heads. A classic SW matched set has heads thats 7 grams apart, so if we add 7 grams head weight, its the same effect as soft stepping once. We count 10 CPM as 1 flex class, and since SW and CPMs is 1:1, 7 grams added is average 3.5 SWP or 3.5 CPM softer = 1/3 flex softer. We can compensate and get back to where we came from by hard stepping once to equalize the effect of adding 7 grams.

    For your Swing...
    Weight we place "in our hands" (grips), dont do much, its mostly a total weight change. Shaft weight adds resistance all the way in the swing, and has the largest effect at the bottom of the swing (pulling the club down against the ground). Head weight is the resistance we feel the most during transition of the club, so if its on top of the swing your dont really feel where the head is, more head weight is the way to go.

    Over all balance. On top of the swing, its shaft weight who tells us the angle of the shaft, if its to low, we will most likely "overswing" (go over the top before we know we are at the top, we cant feel it before we feel the head goes down on the other side, and thats no good). Thats means we must have a clear feedback from BOTH shaft and head to navigate right from the top, and all errors we do up there makes problems from that point and down to the ball.

    That means during testing of added weight, try to stop where you think the top is, and let a helper tell where you are, its very important that the feedback we get is so clear that we dont mess it up during transition of the clubs. You shall be able to judge if yóu are at the top or a few degrees from the top.

    'when you think its all fine, its time to look at you when you swing the clubs, (hip rotation, and the one hand tennis stroke where we look at your shoulder) so we dont over do it, that only causes bad swing habits if you adapt to play clubs thats over and beyond what your body really can handle. If you cant avoid or reduce your common mis hits on a weight below this point where its visible on your swing that you have gone to far, its NOT a equipment issue but a swing issue and then a swing trainer is the way forward, not added weight.

    Get a Jumbomax grip, and start with that one, it adds lots of total weight, and makes it harder to pull or hook the ball, so the grip alone might do way more for you than you expected, and makes less needs to go to the extreme on the rest.

    https://www.jumbomax.com/trial-kits/

  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,495 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @hoselpalooza said:

    @getitdaily said:

    @hoselpalooza said:

    @getitdaily said:
    I like my irons to play about the same flex as my woods. Play my woods at 6.5. Use the shaft chart that I believe is still pinned to find out how to get the shaft to 6.5. I hard stepped ctaper 120s to get there. They play fine.

    Hard stepping and soft stepping (at least in ctapers) won't change feel one bit. I soft stepped my 4iron after playing the same shaft hard stepped. Absolutley no difference in feel. But launch and spin came up a bit, which is what I was after.

    how much did you hard/soft step your c-tapers?

    Don't complicate iron shafts too much. Find a flex that works and either go straight in, soft step, or hard step. Thinking too much will just cause doubt after you've shafted the things.

    here's an alternate view: i want the shafts on my PW or 9i to feel and perform differently than my 2i or 3i because those clubs have different jobs. for me, wedges and short irons should be as heavy as possible and have just enough flex to spin the ball when necessary. long irons should be as stiff as possible -- i don't want to feel the shaft bend -- so i never think about losing the ball left.

    Hard stepped once.

    You're thinking too much about it. At most, soft step 4 iron and maybe 5 iron. Play every other shaft exactly the same.

    agree to disagree. we clearly have different approaches to this. i'll stick with mine, you stick with yours. no worries either way. and thanks for sharing your opinions.

    Right on. So far your reply to several who've posted their experience has been to shut down the reply. So you're looking for specific responses to how you're going about your adventure.

    Howard knows more about this stuff than anyone else on this board (save for maybe tom wishon). I suggest you heed his guidance.

    Other than that, you're going to have to tinker like all.of us gear heads.

    Good luck.

  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 12, 2019 2:54pm #27

    @getitdaily said:

    @hoselpalooza said:

    @getitdaily said:

    @hoselpalooza said:

    @getitdaily said:
    I like my irons to play about the same flex as my woods. Play my woods at 6.5. Use the shaft chart that I believe is still pinned to find out how to get the shaft to 6.5. I hard stepped ctaper 120s to get there. They play fine.

    Hard stepping and soft stepping (at least in ctapers) won't change feel one bit. I soft stepped my 4iron after playing the same shaft hard stepped. Absolutley no difference in feel. But launch and spin came up a bit, which is what I was after.

    how much did you hard/soft step your c-tapers?

    Don't complicate iron shafts too much. Find a flex that works and either go straight in, soft step, or hard step. Thinking too much will just cause doubt after you've shafted the things.

    here's an alternate view: i want the shafts on my PW or 9i to feel and perform differently than my 2i or 3i because those clubs have different jobs. for me, wedges and short irons should be as heavy as possible and have just enough flex to spin the ball when necessary. long irons should be as stiff as possible -- i don't want to feel the shaft bend -- so i never think about losing the ball left.

    Hard stepped once.

    You're thinking too much about it. At most, soft step 4 iron and maybe 5 iron. Play every other shaft exactly the same.

    agree to disagree. we clearly have different approaches to this. i'll stick with mine, you stick with yours. no worries either way. and thanks for sharing your opinions.

    Right on. So far your reply to several who've posted their experience has been to shut down the reply. So you're looking for specific responses to how you're going about your adventure.

    Howard knows more about this stuff than anyone else on this board (save for maybe tom wishon). I suggest you heed his guidance.

    Other than that, you're going to have to tinker like all.of us gear heads.

    Good luck.

    Just be friendly, he dont have to trust me at all, he is not one of the regular profiles in this part of the forum, so how would he know that im a club fitter at all?. Most of club fitters out there aint no good anyway, so why should he think that i am any better when he knows nothing about me? on top of that, im introducing him to a concept for fitting only known in this forum and in Denmark where ive educated a few club makers, PGA swing trainers, plus a few sales reps.

    With the experience ive got myself from "club fitters", i would be more than skeptical, so i dont blame him for the way he responded at all, it was NOT unfriendly, only rejecting and i understand that well, he expected "something else" as answer than what he got, and might have though it was a "easy book answer" coming for "how too" and why.

    He is also one of those players who seems to be way stronger than the average player, and sometimes their set ups looks completely nuts and impossible to play, but thats only a valid judgement for us other "deadly" players who is more against whats served "off the rack" to the majority of Golfers, so whats working for us, cant be used at all for players like him.

    We just have to accept that we are born and built different, just like the clubs we play, so we should just be "open minded" and help out as best as we can, with the best of intentions, and without ending up in a mud wrestle about different opinions.

    I really hope he makes it, and gets back to the forum and tell us about it, and how it all went down, it would be beneficial for other players who can be compared to his needs, because even in this forum there is not that many of his kind with needs to the extreme side of the weight scale like this. ive only seen a few players in my studio with a club speed above 100 mph with a #6 irons where i expect him to be, so who really have lots of experiences with this type of players? The concepts for finding what works is the same, but the values we might see on the paper looks "unreal" for most of us.

    Best of luck with it all from me too, and just ask what ever question there might be if you feel the need for that, there aint no stupid questions here, only answers, and we should try to prevent the last one, its should be considered as a "mis-hit" to the rough or OOB when its bad.

  • hoselpaloozahoselpalooza Members Posts: 243 ✭✭✭
    edited Sep 12, 2019 7:26pm #28

    @Howard Jones , thank you for your support and encouragement.

    when i first got into golf i was very ignorant about how my equipment affected my game. i feel very fortunate that some people opened my eyes to improvements like stiffer shafts and over-sized grips and so forth. the difference feels incredible and it's difficult to imagine how i could ever play with off-the-rack equipment. i don't know what my 6-iron CHS is but people have commented on the distinct sound of my iron strikes. that didn't happen with the off-the-rack equipment.

    i really hope to be able to experiment with golf equipment to my heart's content and would be happy to share and discuss the results with all of you. in case you're interested, here are my current priorities:

    • find the ideal grip size/build-up
      jumbo TV with 4 layers on top and 8 on the bottom (4/8) is not enough. i still have a few grips left so i'm going to try 8/12 or 10/12 next. currently this is top priority because (obviously) a comfortable grip is important, but also because weight on the grip impacts how much weight i need to put on the head to compensate as well as how stiff the shafts will play.

    • get lofts/lies checked
      i've got some used forged clubs that have been hit off mats and have no idea if they're playing to spec. if not, i want to get them bent back. and when i'm finished with my current swing changes i plan to optimize distance gapping and ball flight, but i'm not rushing that.

    • stiffen longer shafts
      i can start experimenting with this once i've settled on the correct grips and might get some help from the person who takes care of lofts/lies when i bring the clubs in. i will probably try it with a long iron and want to go extreme at first so i can definitely feel a difference -- 2" is the plan.

    separately, @Howard Jones , i think i will also be on the lookout for lighter jumbo grips in the near future. i believe you posted about this before? the reason i mention this is because i have a strong hunch i will want to keep my wedges and short irons (maybe even mid) very heavy to promote control and precision, but i may want to lighten the long irons to get more speed/distance. i realize testing lighter shafts is an option and if it turns out it's the best one, so be it. however, i think a lighter grip will allow for more control over the static weight for all of the clubs and i like that idea better, even if i end up using different shafts anyway.

    thanks again!

    any hunch or conviction i share today may very well be disproven or overturned tomorrow, and i welcome that. i'm simply here to learn with others, even if my enthusiasm for golf occasionally masquerades as knowledge. after all, the more i learn the less i know.

  • Howard JonesHoward Jones Members Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    YES i did ask for updates on JUMBO size in the 60 gram range for a sick driver experiment to myself, and during that tread, Jumbomax came up again, offering 50 grams grips in the same size as the others, so i still think you should try a "test pack" with a few of them so you dont need all that tape. Ordinary BU tape (Mitchell) who builds 0.015 for each later is 2 grams for 10 inch (average Bu length), so the tape itself does add some weight to the grip,

  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,924 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Nessism said:

    @Pepperturbo said:
    Hard stepping and soft stepping Taper Tip shafts increases or decreases about half-a-flex, least that is what I was told by an OEM.

    This is incorrect. Shame on any OEM that told you that.
    It takes about 3 steps to change one full flex. Of course it doesn't really work that way but that's a general rule of them.

    Realize that hard stepping has more problems than soft stepping. For one thing hard stepping with pulls results in each club being 1/2" short of the old length so you must add extensions (blah.) Another thing is that you will have to use wedge shafts in your 9 or maybe even the 8. Soft stepping is a lot cleaner because you just need to buy one (or two) new shafts and then step away and shorten each club at the butt as needed to proper playing length.

    Thank you... however, I listen to OEM tour trailer club builders that I know, as opposed to what's said on DB by people I don't know. Have a good day.

    • Titleist TS2 9.5, PX HZRDUS Red 65
    • Titleist 917D2 15*, PX HZRDUS Red 75
    • Titleist 716T-MB 17* 2 iron, Steelfiber i95cw "S"
    • Titleist 716CB 3i-PW, Steelfiber i95cw "S"
    • SM6 F-52*, Steelfiber i110cw "S"
    • SM6 M-58*, DG-S200
    • SC California Monterey
    • ProV1





  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,924 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @hoselpalooza said:

    @Pepperturbo said:

    @hoselpalooza said:

    @Pepperturbo said:
    I knew when each club felt smooth at impact and trajectory looked right to me, nothing more.

    this is helpful, thanks. seems like perhaps the best solution for me is to experiment with (e.g.) a spare long iron and compare it against my current set-up.

    To me, swing weight plays an important roll in a club feeling right during my swing. I am a hitter of the ball, while others are swingers of the club. Both my tempo and transition are fast, yet I still need to feel the clubhead at the top.

    I recently went from 120 gram PX 6.0 shafts to much lighter Steelfiber i95cw "S" shafts. I was anticipating potential problem adjusting to the weight and flex difference reason I messed with hard and soft stepping. As it turns out there has been only a minimal adjustment. My new shafts were designed for players like me moving from steel to lighter graphite/steel, yet they have stiff butt and tips, so swing weight change wasn't noticeable.

    what was the impact on distance? other changes in performance?

    The impact seemed odd, hard to quantify, but it was as if I was losing something in the tip at impact. It's important to know I am a hitter of the ball, not a smooth swinger.

    The loss was probably about 5-8 yards short of my past yardage. It felt a little easier to swing and get through the ball but that wasn't important to me. I wanted yardage back with each club. When I went to "stock" i95cw stiff, I regained the yardage even picked up a few yards per club. Yesterday, I was the oldest and only one in our tee group to hit to 8' on a 176 yard Par 3 green and used 5i and I am pushing 70. I am fighting the aging process. Yep, before anyone says it, it's a brag. lol

    • Titleist TS2 9.5, PX HZRDUS Red 65
    • Titleist 917D2 15*, PX HZRDUS Red 75
    • Titleist 716T-MB 17* 2 iron, Steelfiber i95cw "S"
    • Titleist 716CB 3i-PW, Steelfiber i95cw "S"
    • SM6 F-52*, Steelfiber i110cw "S"
    • SM6 M-58*, DG-S200
    • SC California Monterey
    • ProV1





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