The "Problem" with Fitting Facilities Fixed?

I am just curious what the general consensus would be of the community against the "problem" with many fitting facilities would be if they were fixed? The two biggest complaints I see on here are 1) hitting indoors and 2) the price. What if there was a facility that had indoor/outdoor capabilities (like many TrueSpec locations have) but also had only OEM products but the entire range of the free/no-charge shafts? So for instance, if you walk into a place like Club Champion it's pretty well expected that you are going to be quoted full MSRP on the heads + full MSRP on the shafts + full MSRP on the grips + a build price. For many on here that is a sticking point that few can get past and they either opt for the free option elsewhere or choose to build it themselves from pieces found on the cheap here and there.

If we take Callaway as an example as they have probably one of the most robust wood + iron shaft offerings of any of the OEMs then I can explain. Let's pretend the studio is brand agnostic but you just happen to land on an all Callaway bag either by your own design or by performance. For those who have been to a Club Champion, Cool Clubs, Hot Stix, or True Spec and didn't buy because the price is too high with the build fees, would you be more inclined to buy from this place if they only charged MSRP but you were still getting the exact clubs you were fit? For instance, if you were fit for Apex with Modus 120, you would pay the same rate as you would at Golf Galaxy or TGW just with the addition of a fit fee for the service. For those who are super picky about the swing weight and grip orientation, loft and lies, would you be opposed to an additional "build fee" where the company would order your clubs built but with shafts uncut and the grips loose where they charge an additional fee (let's say $20 p/club) where they would then rip the clubs apart, swingweight on the proper slope, CPM match if the shafts are parallel, grip, bend to the appropriate loft and lie, etc.

So in my hypothetical scenario you would have two options where you buy the clubs at MSRP just as if you bought from anywhere else or if you really wanted piece of mind it would be MSRP + $160 or so to get them built perfectly while avoiding the upcharge of the buying the shafts and grips a la carte. Obviously this isn't perfect as there are some manufacturers (Mizuno, cough, cough) that refuse to sell their products grips loose so you might have to kind of take what you can get there, or other brands like Srixon where they offer a fair bit of product but they take a little while to get so you might be waiting a bit longer.

What does the community think of this? I understand that a few of us here are still going to be of the mentality that they are allergic to retail pricing, but that's not really the clientele of a fitting studio. Do you think this is a good idea, bad idea? Just some thoughts I had the other day and wanted to write them down and share. For those in the industry most of us realize the upgrade is where the money is made, however, in this scenario it is hoped that the fit fees and the additional $160 is enough (for a collective of basically $260 per fit for a set of irons or short set and some wedges) is enough pure margin to offset the lower margin on equipment.

The whole golf fitting industry is pretty messed up, IMHO. These chain fitting places concentrate all of the worst aspects of it into a nice, neat, and ridiculously expensive package. They seem designed to take advantage of people who don't know any better. Major OEM's are certainly part of the problem.

Ultimately, I think you have to game the system. Go in there like you are going to buy clubs, get the fitting, and then just walk away with your specs. From there, do some research, buy the components on the open market, and get a reputable independent builder to put them together for you.

The only two things I personally would find of value in a "fitting facility" of any kind are time on a good launch monitor (outdoors, hitting from grass) and the ability to genuinely vary the important characteristics of the clubs I'm trying. Those characteristics are most importantly weight, balance, length, loft, lie and grip size then secondarily shaft flex or profile or particular clubhead options.

I don't think my club-fitting priorities are at all well addressed by any existing businesses of that type. Or maybe they are at some of the super high-end places. But it's hard enough finding an hour on an outdoor Trackman. And forget being able to hit various clubs with an exact grip size and combinations of weight/balance/length that diverge from the usual run of the mill.

my problem with Club Champion is simple.

charging a customer for an entire club, uncut shaft, grip, adapter, build, etc al la carte at FULL RETAIL PRICE is ridiculous.

assuming driver:

$550 (whole club from an OEM; shaft, grip, cover, etc) + $shaft + $grip + $adapter + $build = $1-2K

on margin alone they're taking home darn close to 3/4 of the cost of the driver. (i was in the industry - believe me, at wholesale you'd be shocked at what the prices of these things ACTUALLY cost).

i think the fitting industry needs to work as a partner with all of the OEMs they carry - to have the ability as a certified fitter/builder to buy COMPONENTS from the OEMs, ie heads only, etc. as this will limit the amount of stuff you DON'T have to buy at full cost. THEN having 'packages' in which your fitted club may fall under.

for instance - lets say out of the fitting you are actually fit for a stock, OEM available club. if you buy from the fitter and no adjustments are made -- the club is the same cost as from the OEM; fitting is included (adjustments can cost extra, not taking anything from them).

if you happen to get fit into a certain combo that is in a 'low' price range (non-exotic shafts, or non-tour driver shafts), and a 'high' price range that would include higher priced shafts or tour versions.

and for the love of god, include the cost of the grips already. it's so tedious but, seeing the cost breakout with them charging $15 for a golf pride MCC+4 or something is just...c'mon man (seein a $1k+ price tag for a driver and then not throwing in a grip? seriously?)

The ONLY time I pay someone to do something is when they have a tool available that I dont already own that would be cost prohibitive and limited use.

Anything they can do, I can do...and this goes for car repairs, club building - or a bathroom remodel.

> @gioguy21 said:

> my problem with Club Champion is simple.

>

> charging a customer for an entire club, uncut shaft, grip, adapter, build, etc al la carte at FULL RETAIL PRICE is ridiculous.

>

> assuming driver:

> $550 (whole club from an OEM; shaft, grip, cover, etc) + $shaft + $grip + $adapter + $build = $1-2K

>

> on margin alone they're taking home darn close to 3/4 of the cost of the driver. (i was in the industry - believe me, at wholesale you'd be shocked at what the prices of these things ACTUALLY cost).

>

> i think the fitting industry needs to work as a partner with all of the OEMs they carry - to have the ability as a certified fitter/builder to buy COMPONENTS from the OEMs, ie heads only, etc. as this will limit the amount of stuff you DON'T have to buy at full cost. THEN having 'packages' in which your fitted club may fall under.

>

> for instance - lets say out of the fitting you are actually fit for a stock, OEM available club. if you buy from the fitter and no adjustments are made -- the club is the same cost as from the OEM; fitting is included (adjustments can cost extra, not taking anything from them).

>

> if you happen to get fit into a certain combo that is in a 'low' price range (non-exotic shafts, or non-tour driver shafts), and a 'high' price range that would include higher priced shafts or tour versions.

>

> and for the love of god, include the cost of the grips already. it's so tedious but, seeing the cost breakout with them charging $15 for a golf pride MCC+4 or something is just...c'mon man (seein a $1k+ price tag for a driver and then not throwing in a grip? seriously?)

>

>

The way it 'should' be is the cost of the component head from the OEM (~$300 which is probably way more than it costs), cost of shaft at retail from whatever brand (~$250 for sake of argument), cost of grip at retail ($8), and $100/hr labor/materials (tape, .2oz epoxy, etc) to assemble (which really only takes 40 mins max) which means out the door at less than $650 which IMO seems like a 'reasonable' markup (vs $499 retail for most 2019 drivers) to have a 'personally custom' assembled driver.

Not $1000+....

Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

> @JCAG said:

> Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

>

This.

...And why people think they need to "trick" the folks at, say, CC, into thinking they might actually buy equipment from CC instead of just making their intentions known upfront is beyond me.

> @JCAG said:

> Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

>

And then there is folks like @jholz who think its just fine to take advantage of others investments, expenses and time, and dont pay for it. They have Golf as a hobby, the folks he wants to take advantage of tries to make a living of it.

i would not play a round with a hustler like that, his attitude is not compatible with the spirit of Golf at all.

Take a taxi cab and just walk away without paying, its the same thing...but i dont expect him to be able to see that.

> @KMeloney said:

> > @JCAG said:

> > Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

> >

>

> This.

>

> ...And why people think they need to "trick" the folks at, say, CC, into thinking they might actually buy equipment from CC instead of just making their intentions known upfront is beyond me.

You have a point here. I shouldn't be advocating that people lie or try to cheat a business/individual. I was trying to euphemistic, but it came off a little stronger than I intended it to be. I do apologize.

What I was really trying to argue against is the "Fitting + Club Sale" business model. These should be two separate processes IMHO. When combined with club sales, I think the fitting process is always going to be flawed.

Finally, and to the "Business 101" argument presented here, this sounds like you want us to have pity on these poor folks with their "high overheads." The market, ultimately, will dictate whether a business model is going to be successful. I have no sympathy for a business that is actively, and knowingly, gouging people.

For those in the know, there is clearly a cheaper, more effective, alternative to Club Champion and the other mass market fitting boutiques. With that alternative out there, I am left to argue that Club Champion etc. are simply trying to part fools from their money. I suppose there is never a shortage of fools...

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @JCAG said:

> > Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

> >

>

> And then there is folks like @jholz who think its just fine to take advantage of others investments, expenses and time, and dont pay for it. They have Golf as a hobby, the folks he wants to take advantage of tries to make a living of it.

> i would not play a round with a hustler like that, his attitude is not compatible with the spirit of Golf at all.

> Take a taxi cab and just walk away without paying, its the same thing...but i dont expect him to be able to see that.

See response above. I apologize that my initial post didn't correctly state my opinion/stance. Sometimes people make mistakes.

> @jholz said:

> Finally, and to the "Business 101" argument presented here, this sounds like you want us to have pity on these poor folks with their "high overheads." The market, ultimately, will dictate whether a business model is going to be successful. I have no sympathy for a business that is actively, and knowingly, gouging people.

The only "pity" here should be taken on the folks who simply can't (or are too cynical to) understand the business aspect and why the costs are what they are. You want to use CC's expertise, vast selection of heads and shafts, and launch monitors in their big heated/cooled/lit/rented spaces (never mind it's marketing, etc.) for... What? Free? Or just "a lot less, since they're gouging you"?

What's this "more effective alternative" out there?

> @phatchrisrules said:

> So in my hypothetical scenario you would have two options where you buy the clubs at MSRP just as if you bought from anywhere else or if you really wanted piece of mind it would be MSRP + $160 or so to get them built perfectly while avoiding the upcharge of the buying the shafts and grips a la carte. Obviously this isn't perfect as there are some manufacturers (Mizuno, cough, cough) that refuse to sell their products grips loose so you might have to kind of take what you can get there, or other brands like Srixon where they offer a fair bit of product but they take a little while to get so you might be waiting a bit longer.

I think you are saying the following, but correct me if I am wrong. Pricing would be as follows:

- $$$ for the fit

- MSRP for the clubs, which includes any free custom options from the manufacturer. Clubs provided as is from manufacturer.

- Non-standard shaft/grip offerings available for extra $$$. Price includes basic assembly.

- Extra $$$ for any adjustments to the standard build (length, lie, SW, etc). Price list available for all options.

I think presented to customers this way would remove any confusion and would reduce the number of people going elsewhere.

OP, the problem with the high end places is the specifying of high dollar shafts for ordinary golfers.

The problem with big box is too often ill trained fitters.

The problem with customers is not wanting to pay for fitting.

If you can do quality fittings with big box product, scalable, and make a profit, that’d be great. Maybe at today’s high club prices it can be done.

> @jholz said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @JCAG said:

> > > Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

> > >

> >

> > And then there is folks like @jholz who think its just fine to take advantage of others investments, expenses and time, and dont pay for it. They have Golf as a hobby, the folks he wants to take advantage of tries to make a living of it.

> > i would not play a round with a hustler like that, his attitude is not compatible with the spirit of Golf at all.

> > Take a taxi cab and just walk away without paying, its the same thing...but i dont expect him to be able to see that.

>

> See response above. I apologize that my initial post didn't correctly state my opinion/stance. Sometimes people make mistakes.

Its perfectly fine that you think many of this places is way to expensive, but its not for free to run a place like that where the customer can choose almost what ever that exist on the marked, and the OEMs is pushing out new models each year and make your inventory worthless. Someone has to pay the costs for that, and thats the Customer.

All of those places offer the fitting as a separate service, its no obligations to buy anything, but you pay for the fitting service like any other service we can buy, so nobody is forced to accept their prices for clubs, but can walk out with the specs they wanted and buy where ever they want.

I also think that their prices is way to high on several things, and would never force PURE shafts on all, but thats the business model a few of them has made as policy, we can like it or not, but do have other options, so i cant see the problem with it.

Dont forget that Golf once was for those with more money than skills, and its still like that many places, so their business model is not meant for the average player with a average wallet at all, but customers who dont really care what it cost, they just buy what ever they want, just like some courses with green-fees most of us would not consider to pay unless it was a very special occasion and almost "a gift to our self".

> @KMeloney said:

> > @jholz said:

> > Finally, and to the "Business 101" argument presented here, this sounds like you want us to have pity on these poor folks with their "high overheads." The market, ultimately, will dictate whether a business model is going to be successful. I have no sympathy for a business that is actively, and knowingly, gouging people.

>

> The only "pity" here should be taken on the folks who simply can't (or are too cynical to) understand the business aspect and why the costs are what they are. You want to use CC's expertise, vast selection of heads and shafts, and launch monitors in their big heated/cooled/lit/rented spaces (never mind it's marketing, etc.) for... What? Free? Or just "a lot less, since they're gouging you"?

>

> What's this "more effective alternative" out there?

>

>

>

Educate yourself and search out options to get on launch monitors and test equipment. You can also just pay for a fitting.

Then take that knowledge, hit the component market, and either learn to build clubs yourself, or find a reputable local builder to put them together for you.

This takes more leg work obviously, but that's the fun.

Looks like we have a good debate going! I like it. To clarify for @jvincent and others who may be interested is basically what they outline as a summary. Again use Callaway as an example:

-Some sort of fit fee to help keep the lights on (say $100, non-refundable, not taken away if you buy).

-Apex 2019 irons, Tour Velvet grips, and Modus 120 shafts ($1400 MSRP for 4-PW) as this is free from Callaway.

- If you so choose, an additional fee of say $20 per club to get them built by a professional club builder so that the lofts, lies, lengths, swingweight, and if applicable CPMs, all fall into a slope that makes sense for the given specs.

So in total, the customer could choose to pay $100 and walk and piece together on their own, they could pay $1500 to pay for the fit and the irons to be built by Callaway, or they are given the "premium" build option that would be $1660 that includes professional spec'd product and what have you. The client has the power on what build works for them.

Comparatively, if someone did a build at a premium fitting facility, it could look like:

-$1400 for the Apex irons

-$259 for the shafts

-$36.33 for the grips

-Potential build charge?

-$100 fit fee

This creates a build price of $1800 before the build price is incorporated (as I'm sure CC and the like don't charge exactly what you see on Golfworks).

Does that clear it up? I also agree with Howard and some others that the fitting fee is integral and should not be waived. This is what helps keep the lights on as there isn't much margin in golf equipment after having worked in the industry for over 15 years. It might seem like "gearing" the consumer but it is a necessary evil just like your mechanic charges you labour on the parts and your lawyer has a consulation fee.

> @KMeloney said:

> > @JCAG said:

> > Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

> >

>

> This.

>

> ...And why people think they need to "trick" the folks at, say, CC, into thinking they might actually buy equipment from CC instead of just making their intentions known upfront is beyond me.

I agree. I personally have never understood why saying "hey can we stick to the free stuff?" is such a tricky concept. I've said it before and had a good experience at a local place.

Agreed, great debate. My opinion is that the fees for a fitting are high - for the avg golfer, BUT entirely worth it and appropriate for what service you are getting so long as the fitter is top notch as well. On average a fitting is about $100 an hour at the higher places, ie CC or TS. Usually about $350 full bag, 3.5hr. Lessons can cost upward of the same amount and I’d argue that you can get more out of one good fitting than you can out of one good lesson. Of course, multiple continuous lessons are a different story, but I digress. Having properly fit clubs can transform your game. Separately I don’t see anything wrong with or feel like it’s trickery if I go into a club fitting and choose to walk away with my specs and try to build or find on my own. As a matter of fact, that’s exactly what I did. Yes it took longer to do and was work and time outside of the fitting process, but I actually enjoyed it. I had done research and knew how much it could cost for the full bag at a fitters price, but even then I was shocked when we did the quote song and dance. I think most reputable fitters, True Spec comes to mind, DO keep their processes separate. My fitter never correlated the fitting process with absolutely buying clubs. The fitting was the fitting and after we walked through what getting those clubs would look like. He never presented and pressure on buying. As upfront as we should be I found they were too. They admitted you could try to source independently but there were benefits to buying from them such as ability to bring back clubs that didn’t work for you out on the course and the ability to match iron shafts consistently, etc. In the end, fitting has its place and I feel that everyone can benefit somewhere in the process as the currently mode stands with no change. Get fitted and walk away to figure out on your own. Fitter still gets the fee for fitting, you get your specs. Alternatively, get fitted, buy everything there, walk away happy and pick up your perfect custom clubs a few weeks later no fuss no muss.

> @jvincent said:

> > @phatchrisrules said:

> > So in my hypothetical scenario you would have two options where you buy the clubs at MSRP just as if you bought from anywhere else or if you really wanted piece of mind it would be MSRP + $160 or so to get them built perfectly while avoiding the upcharge of the buying the shafts and grips a la carte. Obviously this isn't perfect as there are some manufacturers (Mizuno, cough, cough) that refuse to sell their products grips loose so you might have to kind of take what you can get there, or other brands like Srixon where they offer a fair bit of product but they take a little while to get so you might be waiting a bit longer.

>

> I think you are saying the following, but correct me if I am wrong. Pricing would be as follows:

> - $$$ for the fit

> - MSRP for the clubs, which includes any free custom options from the manufacturer. Clubs provided as is from manufacturer.

> - Non-standard shaft/grip offerings available for extra $$$. Price includes basic assembly.

> - Extra $$$ for any adjustments to the standard build (length, lie, SW, etc). Price list available for all options.

>

> I think presented to customers this way would remove any confusion and would reduce the number of people going elsewhere.

>

>

>

My understanding is that some places (CC for example) do offer this. You can pay for the fitting but can opt for either the whole enchilada built (or rebuilt) by them deal with additional fees for the service, or go for the OEM built version and be limited to what they offer, and clubs ordered that way are at MSRP.

Howard raised a great point that always upset me. Picture this. I have my fitting clubs and shafts all set up. I had to lay out a goodly amount of money but it is done. Oh wait a minute. Several suppliers come out with new models and that is what people want. Now I have to buy the latest models. What about the money I already invested? Who is going to pay me to make the changes. Well in the end, my cost will be passed on to the buyer. Part of what you are paying for is stuff I had to get rid of as out of date and all my new inventory. That my friends is part of Overhead.

Phat Chris-

You can already do exactly what you’re saying at CC. Best thing people can do is be up front about their budgets, expectations, and goals before going into a fitting.

Option #1-Order a la cartè aftermarket components built and spec’d by CC

Option #2- Order built by the manufacturer (OEM)

Option #3- Order built by manufacturer then rebuilt and spec’d by CC.

Misnomers:

#1Manufacturers set the prices for equipment- iron and woods are at MAP pricing. Same as you should see through authorized retailers elsewhere.

#2 All products at CC are at MAP- putters MAP - wood shaft pricing is MAP plus install and SST Pure - iron shafts MAP plus install - grips plus install, etc.

***You don’t have to order a CC build when buying equipment from CC. ***If you don’t see value in CC building your clubs by hand with hand-picked, weight-sorted equipment digitally spec’d to the tightest tolerances in the industry for loft/lie/swingweight or SST Pured shafts, then don’t.

Don’t expect CC or any fitter to do any of that for free. Let alone free fits when you buy a Stock driver- someone has to pay for the overhead! All of the technology, training, new demos sometimes every year, etc. The margins in hard goods when it comes to golf clubs isn’t that great, ask your local club pro or some of the fitters in this thread!

Im in Sales...where ever i go i expect to pay fair and reasonable costs for mechanic coach fitter...high launch shafts that Stay in the Fairway! Save the $500 and hit 6 fairways a round....spend (Invest) the money in fitting/coaching and hit 12+ fairways per round and Love Golf.....and Praise The Fitter/Coach

> @RogerinNewZealand said:

> Im in Sales...where ever i go i expect to pay fair and reasonable costs for mechanic coach fitter...high launch shafts that Stay in the Fairway! Save the $500 and hit 6 fairways a round....spend (Invest) the money in fitting/coaching and hit 12+ fairways per round and Love Golf.....and Praise The Fitter/Coach

Yep- lessons ALWAYS work!

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @jholz said:

> > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > @JCAG said:

> > > > Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

> > > >

> > >

> > > And then there is folks like @jholz who think its just fine to take advantage of others investments, expenses and time, and dont pay for it. They have Golf as a hobby, the folks he wants to take advantage of tries to make a living of it.

> > > i would not play a round with a hustler like that, his attitude is not compatible with the spirit of Golf at all.

> > > Take a taxi cab and just walk away without paying, its the same thing...but i dont expect him to be able to see that.

> >

> > See response above. I apologize that my initial post didn't correctly state my opinion/stance. Sometimes people make mistakes.

>

> Its perfectly fine that you think many of this places is way to expensive, but its not for free to run a place like that where the customer can choose almost what ever that exist on the marked, and the OEMs is pushing out new models each year and make your inventory worthless. Someone has to pay the costs for that, and thats the Customer.

>

> All of those places offer the fitting as a separate service, its no obligations to buy anything, but you pay for the fitting service like any other service we can buy, so nobody is forced to accept their prices for clubs, but can walk out with the specs they wanted and buy where ever they want.

>

> I also think that their prices is way to high on several things, and would never force PURE shafts on all, but thats the business model a few of them has made as policy, we can like it or not, but do have other options, so i cant see the problem with it.

>

> Dont forget that Golf once was for those with more money than skills, and its still like that many places, so their business model is not meant for the average player with a average wallet at all, but customers who dont really care what it cost, they just buy what ever they want, just like some courses with green-fees most of us would not consider to pay unless it was a very special occasion and almost "a gift to our self".

We really are in the wrong industry, buddy...

> @Yarra said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @jholz said:

> > > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > > > @JCAG said:

> > > > > Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > And then there is folks like @jholz who think its just fine to take advantage of others investments, expenses and time, and dont pay for it. They have Golf as a hobby, the folks he wants to take advantage of tries to make a living of it.

> > > > i would not play a round with a hustler like that, his attitude is not compatible with the spirit of Golf at all.

> > > > Take a taxi cab and just walk away without paying, its the same thing...but i dont expect him to be able to see that.

> > >

> > > See response above. I apologize that my initial post didn't correctly state my opinion/stance. Sometimes people make mistakes.

> >

> > Its perfectly fine that you think many of this places is way to expensive, but its not for free to run a place like that where the customer can choose almost what ever that exist on the marked, and the OEMs is pushing out new models each year and make your inventory worthless. Someone has to pay the costs for that, and thats the Customer.

> >

> > All of those places offer the fitting as a separate service, its no obligations to buy anything, but you pay for the fitting service like any other service we can buy, so nobody is forced to accept their prices for clubs, but can walk out with the specs they wanted and buy where ever they want.

> >

> > I also think that their prices is way to high on several things, and would never force PURE shafts on all, but thats the business model a few of them has made as policy, we can like it or not, but do have other options, so i cant see the problem with it.

> >

> > Dont forget that Golf once was for those with more money than skills, and its still like that many places, so their business model is not meant for the average player with a average wallet at all, but customers who dont really care what it cost, they just buy what ever they want, just like some courses with green-fees most of us would not consider to pay unless it was a very special occasion and almost "a gift to our self".

>

> We really are in the wrong industry, buddy...

If making lots of money was the target yes, then we should have been players, not club makers, but i never had the talent to be a good player myself, i started with Golf way to late in life, (above 40) and with a body that was anything but good after a career as Elite Freestyle skier in my younger days.

Anyone who can make a decent living of what he likes to do is privileged, no matter what he does, and i have enjoyed every minute of it. Today im officially retired, but still enjoy helping others like in this forum, and i dont want to think about how many free hours without payment that has been, but i have enjoyed every minute of that too, so for me, this was never about money, but the Sport i became addicted to the very first day i tried it.

I’d recommend independent club fitters/builders as a more affordable option, especially those using component brands. You won’t get to try every shaft on the market and might walk out with some brands you won’t see at a chain, but you can get quality clubs that are fit to you.

Before I got any training I went to this type of fitter. I had a great experience and came away with a set of Alpha irons with Wishon shafts that I still have and sometimes play. I paid a little less than I would have for an off the rack OEM set.

> @phatchrisrules said:

> > @KMeloney said:

> > > @JCAG said:

> > > Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

> > >

> >

> > This.

> >

> > ...And why people think they need to "trick" the folks at, say, CC, into thinking they might actually buy equipment from CC instead of just making their intentions known upfront is beyond me.

>

> I agree. I personally have never understood why saying "hey can we stick to the free stuff?" is such a tricky concept. I've said it before and had a good experience at a local place.

The question is whether a customer receives the same level of attention from the fitter/salesman whether he represents a potential $2k sale or merely a $150 fitting fee. Experiences vary, but it looks from the outside like CC et. al. MUST convert fittings into large sales, including various mysterious shaft treatments. If it was down to $150/hour consultation they’d go under, so it would be natural if at least some fitters were less motivated and engaged when dealing with the fitting-only customer. So you get customers who feel they must pretend to be willing to buy stuff in order to get value from the fitting fee. I’ve had my boutique fitting experience and bought the whole package. I won’t go back.

OP, can you edit the first post to include and spell out (in letters and numbers), what I later understand to be a **$100** fit fee? That would make it easier to understand. I kept looking for the 'missing' $100.

> @howellhandmade said:

> > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > @KMeloney said:

> > > > @JCAG said:

> > > > Some seem to forget or have never been exposed to Business 101. A business has to pay for its overhead then what is left is profit. I doubt any of the "expensive" places often referred to, are knocking it dead when it comes to profit. Just looking at some of the places and knowing their location, one can see their overhead has to be outrageous. At best, a good living for the owner(s) but little more. Economics for a one man operation in a standalone shope (not their garage) is $120K per year sales minus $70K materials/overhead means $50K for the owner. Not exactly a knock it dead income.

> > > >

> > >

> > > This.

> > >

> > > ...And why people think they need to "trick" the folks at, say, CC, into thinking they might actually buy equipment from CC instead of just making their intentions known upfront is beyond me.

> >

> > I agree. I personally have never understood why saying "hey can we stick to the free stuff?" is such a tricky concept. I've said it before and had a good experience at a local place.

>

> The question is whether a customer receives the same level of attention from the fitter/salesman if he represents a potential $2k sale or merely a $150 fitting fee. Experiences vary, but it looks from the outside like CC et. al. MUST convert fittings into large sales, including various mysterious shaft treatments. If it was down to $150/hour consultation they’d go under, so it would be natural if at least some fitters were less motivated and engaged when dealing with the fitting-only customer. So you get customers who feel they must pretend to be willing to buy stuff in order to get value from the fitting fee. I’ve had my boutique fitting experience and bought the whole package. I won’t go back.

^^^This. Said perfectly and I think what some of us weee previously trying to capture but missed the mark. Thanks.