Picking the Ball - Bad Clubfit or Swing Type Characteristic

Just curious what is the predominant cause of picking the ball. I don't hit fat, but my miss is typically a pick. I am a sweeper with the club so I know given my swing style I'm not likely to take a big divot, if I even take one at all. However, I am curious if my fellow sweepers have been able to add spin and more consistent contact with some form of club fitting change.

I've had a funny thing happen recently. For as long as I've been able to hit the ball with any sort of pattern at all (i.e. once I was past the initial couple years of being a beginner with no idea what was going on) I've noticed one pattern. If I'm hitting the ball well I am totally a "picker". A very shallow mark on the fairway grass after a crisply struck wedge shot (but not deep enough to reach the roots) and literally only brushing the top of the grass with irons.

The other side of the pattern was if I made even nice, shallow, modest divots I was generally hitting the ball poorly. My good swing just aren't going to take a divot with any club. Only bad swings (either steep or flipping at it).

Recently I changed away from wide-soled irons (Ping G, etc.) with 100g lightweight steel shafts into a medium-soled 718 AP2 with AMT Tour White shafts. I changed because the heavy shafts help my tempo and path issues but I was kind of worried I might not do well without the security blanket of having wide soles to bail out my bad swings.

Here's the weird part. My very best swings now take a divot. Not talking fat contact behind the ball, this is the type of divot that starts just past where the ball was sitting and then goes forward several inches from there. And not super shallow, these are real divots that require me to replace the missing turf with sand. This is every with 5-iron and 6-iron, not just wedges or shorter irons.

And when I pick the ball cleanly it's like you're describing. Lacking spin and without predictable and consistent ball flight. I don't know if it's the "turf interaction" of the AP2 soles or the 15-30g heavier shaft weight (depending on which end of the ascending weight set). My theory is it's probably the heavy shafts. It certainly feels like my swing tracks on a different plane than it did with the lightweight shafts.

So I think it can definitely be "a club thing" and not just "a swing thing".

Heavy shafts work for me as well in terms of making my swing more repeatable and consistent.

That said, wasn’t sure if adding or removing shaft length would help.

I NEVER take a divot, except out of a bunker. Turf interaction wastes stored energy that could be transferred to the ball. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! All this nonsense about the ball being long gone by the time the club hits the ground, or compressing the ball against the turf just doesn't work for me. Now maybe if I could spend the time figuring out how to do that i'd be hitting a iron 190 yards, but haven't learned in 40 years, so not likely to now :)

> @halliedog said:

> I NEVER take a divot, except out of a bunker. Turf interaction wastes stored energy that could be transferred to the ball. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! All this nonsense about the ball being long gone by the time the club hits the ground, or compressing the ball against the turf just doesn't work for me. Now maybe if I could spend the time figuring out how to do that i'd be hitting a iron 190 yards, but haven't learned in 40 years, so not likely to now :)

Thats your angle of attach...very shallow, so unless you can get your hands more forward at impact, you might get turf interaction before the ball and looses power transfer to the ball, but with your hands more forward, you will hit the ball before the turf with a more negative angle of attack, so its your hands position at impact...but no need to change it if it works as it is.

the two above...different, thats lack of weight, but going "heavy" is not the right word, sometimes a few grams added head weight is all it takes...In general, thin or mostly toe side, too light, fat or mostly heel side, too heavy. Always try some added head weight first using lead tape. Length MIGHT be short, but to judge that we need to see the players stance and swing, so i suggest some added head weight first.

I much prefer to sweep the ball. Use to be very steep and huge divots. My body and score couldn't take it anymore and changed my swing. Same clubs that I used to take deep divots now take little or no divot. I have no problem with spin or consistency and in fact it is better now that I'm more consistently striking the ball. Compressing the ball and spin has nothing to do with taking a divot. It's about delivering the club squarely into the back of the ball with good speed.

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> the two above...different, thats lack of weight, but going "heavy" is not the right word, sometimes a few grams added head weight is all it takes...In general, thin or mostly toe side, too light, fat or mostly heel side, too heavy. Always try some added head weight first using lead tape. Length MIGHT be short, but to judge that we need to see the players stance and swing, so i suggest some added head weight first.

Your characterization of "thin or mostly toe side" is how I had been hitting a lot of shots lately. Even a lot of pretty good shots the impact was low and toward the toe (with a Ping G iron or similar you can get away with those usually). But also mixed in were really awful swings where I "flip" and slap the club into the ground behind the ball. Ugly.

I had tried a modest amount of lead tape on PW, 9-iron, 8-iron and it might have helped a little but still just wasn't making a huge difference. Maybe because I was only getting about 4-5g on there which is pretty minor.

I played Dynamic Gold shafts from when I first took up the game in the 1990's until early 2012. I liked them in the shorter clubs but could not get good results from 4, 5, 6 irons that were so heavy. These AMT White are exactly like DG in the short clubs but much lighter in the mid-long irons. I wish I could have had shafts like this 20 years ago.

I’m a sweeper and have low spin/ low launch..

below is my 4i numbers before the fitting, the low spin causes my ball to roll for days through out my bag.

The fitter said my swing is good In general and we needed to find clubs I’m most consistent with and max out the spin with adjustments, but he mentioned my low launch is the real issue holding me back.

My best results in equipment are:

Driver TS3 at A4 setting(highest loft)

more loft = more spin

Irons = lead tape

Wedges = S400 shaft (my irons are S300)

During the fitting the fitter told me to aim for the top of the simulator screen and while it help tremendously with launch, I could not replicate it on the field. I made a swing adjustment that fixed my AOA which provided a higher launch.

now couldn’t be happier with my flight..

So that’s my equipment change to add spin :)

Another thing to keep in mind:

Professionals and top players' large deep divots are largely a factor of their club head speed. I have an average swing speed, and what would be a grass-bruiser/shallow divot for me would be a much longer and deeper divot for someone who swings their driver 120 mph (all things the same).

It requires a lot of club head speed and proper release for the club head to enter and accelerate through the ground after transferring energy to the ball already.

So, don't get caught up in the divot size necessarily!

P.S. - I'd love for TXG to make a video re: how divots change for a constant AoA/path/etc. at varying club head speeds. I think it would really be enlightening for slower swingers.

> @mwcallison said:

> Another thing to keep in mind:

> Professionals and top players' large deep divots are largely a factor of their club head speed. I have an average swing speed, and what would be a grass-bruiser/shallow divot for me would be a much longer and deeper divot for someone who swings their driver 120 mph (all things the same).

> It requires a lot of club head speed and proper release for the club head to enter and accelerate through the ground after transferring energy to the ball already.

> So, don't get caught up in the divot size necessarily!

>

> P.S. - I'd love for TXG to make a video re: how divots change for a constant AoA/path/etc. at varying club head speeds. I think it would really be enlightening for slower swingers.

Its mostly AOA combined with sole properties. if more of this players got personal fitted sole properties (grinding), green keepers would have a easier job, and the players wrists and elbows would last longer before they got hurt.

IMO, a correct grinded and fitted sole, (mostly leading edge) will only "shave off" the grass, it want take a gram of soil.

I used to be crazzzyy shallow, like I'd be 0 or -1 AoA with a 7i. This is not ideal because contact will be lower on the face, makes it tougher to spin the ball, get the most distance, etc. I've had some lessons over the past few years and now my AoA is about where it should be, right around -4 or so with a 7i.

I also wouldn't get too caught up in how pro's divots look. I take lessons at a private club (not a member but my coach used to teach elsewhere and "took" me with him) and taking a divot there is miles easier than any the random muni's I play. There's something about these world class type of facilities with the way the soil/grass etc is where the club glides through much better. Also, effective bounce and sole design probably matters quite a lot, where I assume the thinner your sole (less effective bounce) the easier it is for the club to enter into turf (in addition to CHS). I

I also feel like being a bit shallow is "safer". If you have a -7 AoA, you may take a cool looking divot but if you even hit just a touch behind the ball, your spin will tank, ball speed will drop a bunch and you'll end up very short of target. Being shallow allows for a little bit more margin of error I'd imagine, and probably also gives you a higher likelihood of having more neutral path and face to path conditions.

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> I used to be crazzzyy shallow, like I'd be 0 or -1 AoA with a 7i. This is not ideal because contact will be lower on the face, makes it tougher to spin the ball, get the most distance, etc. I've had some lessons over the past few years and now my AoA is about where it should be, right around -4 or so with a 7i.

>

> I also wouldn't get too caught up in how pro's divots look. I take lessons at a private club (not a member but my coach used to teach elsewhere and "took" me with him) and taking a divot there is miles easier than any the random muni's I play. There's something about these world class type of facilities with the way the soil/grass etc is where the club glides through much better. Also, effective bounce and sole design probably matters quite a lot, where I assume the thinner your sole (less effective bounce) the easier it is for the club to enter into turf (in addition to CHS). I

>

> I also feel like being a bit shallow is "safer". If you have a -7 AoA, you may take a cool looking divot but if you even hit just a touch behind the ball, your spin will tank, ball speed will drop a bunch and you'll end up very short of target. Being shallow allows for a little bit more margin of error I'd imagine, and probably also gives you a higher likelihood of having more neutral path and face to path conditions.

Learning to play in the Land Of Bermuda, I remember one of the first shots I hit from the fairway of a course in Ohio my first golf tip up north (OK Midwest). It peeled off a saucer-size layer of turf and deposited it 20 feet in front of me. I was like, "So THAT'S how those guys on TV do it!!!".

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @Z1ggy16 said:

> > I used to be crazzzyy shallow, like I'd be 0 or -1 AoA with a 7i. This is not ideal because contact will be lower on the face, makes it tougher to spin the ball, get the most distance, etc. I've had some lessons over the past few years and now my AoA is about where it should be, right around -4 or so with a 7i.

> >

> > I also wouldn't get too caught up in how pro's divots look. I take lessons at a private club (not a member but my coach used to teach elsewhere and "took" me with him) and taking a divot there is miles easier than any the random muni's I play. There's something about these world class type of facilities with the way the soil/grass etc is where the club glides through much better. Also, effective bounce and sole design probably matters quite a lot, where I assume the thinner your sole (less effective bounce) the easier it is for the club to enter into turf (in addition to CHS). I

> >

> > I also feel like being a bit shallow is "safer". If you have a -7 AoA, you may take a cool looking divot but if you even hit just a touch behind the ball, your spin will tank, ball speed will drop a bunch and you'll end up very short of target. Being shallow allows for a little bit more margin of error I'd imagine, and probably also gives you a higher likelihood of having more neutral path and face to path conditions.

>

> Learning to play in the Land Of Bermuda, I remember one of the first shots I hit from the fairway of a course in Ohio my first golf tip up north (OK Midwest). It peeled off a saucer-size layer of turf and deposited it 20 feet in front of me. I was like, "So THAT'S how those guys on TV do it!!!".

Nothing like going ball first into lush turf. I remember my first pellet... it was a glorious feeling.