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New World Handicap System

 randywall ·  
randywallrandywall Oak Harbor, WAMembers  45WRX Points: 51Handicap: 28Posts: 45 Bunkers
Joined:  in Rules of Golf and Etiquette #1

As the GHIN posting season is about to end for most of us, I'm surprised I haven't heard more about implementation of the new system. The articles are all really old from USGA and don't say anything about how they plan to adjust for course conditions, and the other changes that are supposed to go into effect in less than 3 months. I have a friend/playing partner who had never kept a handicap because he would be maxed out at 36.4, but I suspect under the new system, he'll be about a 48 (based on my applying the existing formula to his scores, per the course rating & slope of the courses we've played together).
If USGA and others aren't going to publish any updated articles, maybe WRX could interview someone from R&A/USGA?

Posted:
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«13456765
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Comments

  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX  2656WRX Points: 1,668Handicap: +2.2Posts: 2,656 ClubWRX
    Joined:  #2

    See https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1790425/new-world-handicaps-2020#latest for the most recent thread on this topic. There have been others.

    Posted:
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  • AugsterAugster Members  4771WRX Points: 638Posts: 4,771 Titanium Tees
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    Everything you need to know at this time is here:

    https://www.whs.com/

    Posted:
  • DaveLeeNCDaveLeeNC Pinehurst, NCMembers  5861WRX Points: 529Posts: 5,861 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #4

    On -, @Augster said:

    Everything you need to know at this time is here:

    https://www.whs.com/

    I am not sure exactly what we need to know "at this time", but AFAIK the referenced website hasn't been updated for a half year or more. This is their "timeline"

    _We are planning to make the WHS available for implementation by National Associations beginning in January 2020, after an extensive schedule of testing, communication, promotion and education. _

    It just doesn't feel like a whole bunch of stuff is going to be made available to the relevant National Associations in just 2 months. OTOH, I am not in that loop.

    dave

    Posted:
  • davep043davep043 Members  5325WRX Points: 2,498Handicap: 6.3Posts: 5,325 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #5

    I think for the consumer, the WHS has released all it needs to. The adjustment for daily conditions will be made in the background, and I imagine that all of the national associations have that calculation method in hand. We golfers really don't need that. The details we haven't seen are the details that will be supplied by our own national association. Which scores to post, adjustments for holes not played, all of the things that will remain different from one part of the world to another, we haven't seen anything from the USGA yet.

    Posted:

    Home is Reston, Virgina, with regular visits to Southern Pines, NC

  • AugsterAugster Members  4771WRX Points: 638Posts: 4,771 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #6

    On -, @DaveLeeNC said:

    On -, @Augster said:

    Everything you need to know at this time is here:

    https://www.whs.com/

    I am not sure exactly what we need to know "at this time", but AFAIK the referenced website hasn't been updated for a half year or more. This is their "timeline"

    _We are planning to make the WHS available for implementation by National Associations beginning in January 2020, after an extensive schedule of testing, communication, promotion and education. _

    It just doesn't feel like a whole bunch of stuff is going to be made available to the relevant National Associations in just 2 months. OTOH, I am not in that loop.

    dave

    The “course and playing handicap” section was updated 7/31/19.

    The “course rating and slope rating” section was updated 7/30/19.

    The “acceptable scores for a handicap index” section was updated 6/27/19.

    Perhaps “a half year or more” is a bit of an exaggeration.

    They gave us all the info there is. Handicaps will be computed like USGA is now with the differentials based on CR and slope. Instead of 10/20, they’ll use 8/20. The highest hole score one can post is net double bogey. They will not allow solo scores just as it is now. They added they won’t allow score while being coached.

    Everything else, as DaveP043 says, will be up to local ruling bodies for acceptability of scores based on tradition.

    The “weather adjustment” will basically be zero. But, in the few cases where everyone that posts that course that day shoots incredibly high, the algorithm will adjust your differential down. I doubt the algorithm will ever adjust differentials higher because it was such a great scoring day. Nobody cares if a guy’s cap is too low. They only care if it’s too high.

    Posted:
  • antipantip Members  1326WRX Points: 452Posts: 1,326 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2019 #7

    On -, @Augster said:

    The “weather adjustment” will basically be zero. But, in the few cases where everyone that posts that course that day shoots incredibly high, the algorithm will adjust your differential down. I doubt the algorithm will ever adjust differentials higher because it was such a great scoring day. Nobody cares if a guy’s cap is too low. They only care if it’s too high.

    We employ the system already so I can make some observations on these themes based on our outcomes. But note the context here is different to the US, here the competition fields for the men (Wed, Sat, Sun) average around 160 players and everyone plays precisely the same course - and all scores are posted. So we have clear data on how the system algorithms drive the final course scratch rating on the day and how it varies from the (theoretical) course scratch rating. My quick look now over the last year of data tells me about one day out of every 7 it goes up or down by one, one day in 20 it goes up or down by two (from my course's scratch rating of 72) . The variations are more likely to be upward in winter months and downward in summer months but do go in both directions. In my experience, the cause of the variation splits between changed weather conditions (eg big winds one day) and the performance of the players on the day - that is, even when weather conditions are entirely stable on the day, the scratch rating can still move up or down - that is, the entire cohort of players on any given day do not perform consistently with their measured average scores. [Edit, note that the variations in the scratch rating move in opposite direction to the adjustment to the differentials - scratch rating is moved down by the system, your differential goes up for any given score.]

    Posted:
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  • Colin LColin L Members  2460WRX Points: 411Handicap: 16.5Posts: 2,460 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2019 #8

    On -, @DaveLeeNC said:

    On -, @Augster said:

    Everything you need to know at this time is here:

    https://www.whs.com/

    I am not sure exactly what we need to know "at this time", but AFAIK the referenced website hasn't been updated for a half year or more. This is their "timeline"

    _We are planning to make the WHS available for implementation by National Associations beginning in January 2020, after an extensive schedule of testing, communication, promotion and education. _

    It just doesn't feel like a whole bunch of stuff is going to be made available to the relevant National Associations in just 2 months. OTOH, I am not in that loop.

    Dave

    I suggest you need to look to your own National Association to find out how it is disseminating information on the WHS. The R&A/USGA provided a 2 day training session for representatives of the CONGU countries in April which fully informed us of the WHS system. Scottish Golf mounted a series.of seminars for club officials and members during August and will do so again next spring (we don't implement the WHS till November 2020). A support structure is in place to help Clubs as they inform their memberships. Far from National Associations waiting for a bunch of stuff to be made available to the next two months, a whole bunch of stuff is already out to our clubs. I've no doubt that each of the other CONGU countries - England, Wales and Ireland - will likewise be busy advising the affiliated clubs on the system.

    Posted:
  • NewbyNewby Members  7903WRX Points: 675Posts: 7,903 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #9

    On -, @antip said:

    We employ the system already so I can make some observations on these themes based on our outcomes. But note the context here is different to the US, here the competition fields for the men (Wed, Sat, Sun) average around 160 players and everyone plays precisely the same course - and all scores are posted. So we have clear data on how the system algorithms drive the final course scratch rating on the day and how it varies from the (theoretical) course scratch rating. My quick look now over the last year of data tells me about one day out of every 7 it goes up or down by one, one day in 20 it goes up or down by two (from my course's scratch rating of 72) . The variations are more likely to be upward in winter months and downward in summer months but do go in both directions. In my experience, the cause of the variation splits between changed weather conditions (eg big winds one day) and the performance of the players on the day - that is, even when weather conditions are entirely stable on the day, the scratch rating can still move up or down - that is, the entire cohort of players on any given day do not perform consistently with their measured average scores. [Edit, note that the variations in the scratch rating move in opposite direction to the adjustment to the differentials - scratch rating is moved down by the system, your differential goes up for any given score.]

    The environment in CONGUland is much the same. Mainly large field competitions but the formula is different. My impression is that the effective rating goes up far more often than down. Usually by one stroke, possibly two. It maxes out at 3.

    Re Colin's comments re national associations. Much the same in England. We will be rolling out our club and member presentations shortly. My county is in the middle of training the presenters and fine tuning the presentations.

    Incidentally, does anyone know what all these blank advertisements from GolfWRX are all about?

    Posted:
  • Colin LColin L Members  2460WRX Points: 411Handicap: 16.5Posts: 2,460 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #10

    On -, @Newby said:

    On -, @antip said:

    Incidentally, does anyone know what all these blank advertisements from GolfWRX are all about?

    I'm not getting blank ones. There's a small ad over to the right of the screen

    Posted:
  • NewbyNewby Members  7903WRX Points: 675Posts: 7,903 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2019 #11

    On -, @Colin L said:

    On -, @Newby said:

    On -, @antip said:

    Incidentally, does anyone know what all these blank advertisements from GolfWRX are all about?

    I'm not getting blank ones. There's a small ad over to the right of the screen

    This is what I'm getting

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6024507/uploads/editor/2o/b8en1orpf16s.png

    Posted:
  • HatsForBatsHatsForBats Members  2021WRX Points: 296Handicap: 7Posts: 2,021 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #12

    On -, @Newby said:

    On -, @Colin L said:

    On -, @Newby said:

    On -, @antip said:

    Incidentally, does anyone know what all these blank advertisements from GolfWRX are all about?

    I'm not getting blank ones. There's a small ad over to the right of the screen

    This is what I'm getting

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6024507/uploads/editor/2o/b8en1orpf16s.png

    Browser with an ad-blocker versus a browser with no ad-blocker.

    Posted:
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  • DaveLeeNCDaveLeeNC Pinehurst, NCMembers  5861WRX Points: 529Posts: 5,861 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2019 #13

    On -, @Colin L said:

    On -, @DaveLeeNC said:

    On -, @Augster said:

    Everything you need to know at this time is here:

    https://www.whs.com/

    I am not sure exactly what we need to know "at this time", but AFAIK the referenced website hasn't been updated for a half year or more. This is their "timeline"

    _We are planning to make the WHS available for implementation by National Associations beginning in January 2020, after an extensive schedule of testing, communication, promotion and education. _

    It just doesn't feel like a whole bunch of stuff is going to be made available to the relevant National Associations in just 2 months. OTOH, I am not in that loop.

    Dave

    I suggest you need to look to your own National Association to find out how it is disseminating information on the WHS. The R&A/USGA provided a 2 day training session for representatives of the CONGU countries in April which fully informed us of the WHS system. Scottish Golf mounted a series.of seminars for club officials and members during August and will do so again next spring (we don't implement the WHS till November 2020). A support structure is in place to help Clubs as they inform their memberships. Far from National Associations waiting for a bunch of stuff to be made available to the next two months, a whole bunch of stuff is already out to our clubs. I've no doubt that each of the other CONGU countries - England, Wales and Ireland - will likewise be busy advising the affiliated clubs on the system.

    Here in the US various state organizations are kind of the interface between the golfer and the USGA. Where I live the "Carolina's Golf Association" provides course ratings services, posting services (via Ghin in our case), etc. So I have sent the relevant rep (who I have met although it is unlikely that he remembers that) a short set of questions regarding

    1) Roll out schedule for the WHS
    2) Decision on how course handicap will be calculated
    3) Are they going to be offering guidance regarding how hole handicaps are calculated now that NDB will be in place (where the 'Match Play Methodology' seems poorly suited to NDB).

    We'll see what happens here.

    dave

    Posted:
  • NewbyNewby Members  7903WRX Points: 675Posts: 7,903 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #14

    On -, @HatsForBats said:

    On -, @Newby said:

    On -, @Colin L said:

    On -, @Newby said:

    On -, @antip said:

    Incidentally, does anyone know what all these blank advertisements from GolfWRX are all about?

    I'm not getting blank ones. There's a small ad over to the right of the screen

    This is what I'm getting

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6024507/uploads/editor/2o/b8en1orpf16s.png

    Browser with an ad-blocker versus a browser with no ad-blocker.

    Yes. I had worked that bit out but whichever it is they are a b..... nuisance.

    Posted:
  • DaveLeeNCDaveLeeNC Pinehurst, NCMembers  5861WRX Points: 529Posts: 5,861 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #15

    Well, in summary my speculation that there is little going on here is quite wrong.

    I got a response from the CGA that was extremely helpful and detailed. I do not want to become their spokesman (I don't have the required knowledge). But to summarize.

    1) This will roll out in the Carolina's starting 1/2020

    2) Course Handicap will reflect the difference between Course Rating and "Par".

    3) The definition of par is being tightened by the USGA and it will be common for 'Par' to change when going between tees.

    4) Hole stroke indexes will be determined by the USGA based on course rating data.

    So in the context of the WHS, this is how it will play out in the US.

    dave

    Posted:
  • NewbyNewby Members  7903WRX Points: 675Posts: 7,903 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2019 #16

    On -, @DaveLeeNC said:

    Well, in summary my speculation that there is little going on here is quite wrong.

    I got a response from the CGA that was extremely helpful and detailed. I do not want to become their spokesman (I don't have the required knowledge). But to summarize.

    2) Course Handicap will reflect the difference between Course Rating and "Par".

    dave

    So have I got this right? The USGA will use the former.

    CH = H Index * (Slope/113) + (CR - Par)
    rather than
    CH = H Index * (Slope/113)

    I think the former is currently used by the EGA.

    England will be using the latter I believe.

    Posted:
  • HatsForBatsHatsForBats Members  2021WRX Points: 296Handicap: 7Posts: 2,021 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #17

    On -, @DaveLeeNC said:

    Well, in summary my speculation that there is little going on here is quite wrong.

    I got a response from the CGA that was extremely helpful and detailed. I do not want to become their spokesman (I don't have the required knowledge). But to summarize.

    1) This will roll out in the Carolina's starting 1/2020

    2) Course Handicap will reflect the difference between Course Rating and "Par".

    3) The definition of par is being tightened by the USGA and it will be common for 'Par' to change when going between tees.

    4) Hole stroke indexes will be determined by the USGA based on course rating data.

    So in the context of the WHS, this is how it will play out in the US.

    dave

    I like the idea of #2 until I get to #3. However, there is so little we know about it so I guess we will have to wait until it rolls out to get a better picture. On the surface I think changing the par between tee's might further discourage players from moving up but we will have to see how it is going to work.

    Posted:
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  • NewbyNewby Members  7903WRX Points: 675Posts: 7,903 Titanium Tees
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    I gather par will be in overlapping ranges of length but the ranges will be universal. It will allow for difficulty and effective playing length adjustments.

    Posted:
  • DaveLeeNCDaveLeeNC Pinehurst, NCMembers  5861WRX Points: 529Posts: 5,861 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #19

    One thing that I would add is that the definitions of the 'new par', how that works with what we used to know as par, and how that works with the WHS is not completely clear to me. A handful of posts back the (reasonable) statement that 'all you need to know is on the website' was made. Personally I found that level of info less than satisfying. But at this point I am happy to wait with my remaining questions until the system is actually rolled out.

    dave

    Posted:
  • Colin LColin L Members  2460WRX Points: 411Handicap: 16.5Posts: 2,460 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2019 #20

    I don't recognise what you are referring to as "new par". Par is defined in the WHS rules as the score that a scratch would generally be expected to achieve on a hole under normal course and weather conditions, allowing for two strokes on the putting green. No change there for us. The recommendations for men are below. The distances vary a little from our current guidelines but not significantly.
    Par 3: up to 260 yards/240 metres
    Par 4: 240 to 490 yards/220 to 450 metres
    Par 5: 450 to 710 Yards/410 to 650 metres
    Par 6: 670 yards and above /610 metres and above

    Posted:
    Post edited by Colin L on
  • HaleboppHalebopp Members  3134WRX Points: 352Posts: 3,134 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #21

    On -, @Colin L said:

    I don't recognise what you are referring to as "new par". Par is defined in the WHS rules as the score that a scratch would generally be expected to achieve on a hole under normal course and weather conditions, allowing for two strokes on the putting green. The recommendations for men are below. The distances vary a little from our current guidelines but no more than 10 yards either way.

    Par 3: up to 260 yards/240 metres
    Par 4: 240 to 490 yards/220 to 450 metres
    Par 5: 450 to 710 Yards/410 to 650 metres
    Par 6: 670 yards and above /610 metres and above

    Maybe they'll simply require clubs to change the par depending on the set of tees and gender? For example a hole is 440 yards from the forward tees and 580 from the back. For men it could be a par 4 or a par 5 whereas for women it would be a par 5 or a par 6 depending on the tees.

    Posted:
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  • DaveLeeNCDaveLeeNC Pinehurst, NCMembers  5861WRX Points: 529Posts: 5,861 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #22

    On -, @Colin L said:

    I don't recognise what you are referring to as "new par". Par is defined in the WHS rules as the score that a scratch would generally be expected to achieve on a hole under normal course and weather conditions, allowing for two strokes on the putting green. No change there for us. The recommendations for men are below. The distances vary a little from our current guidelines but not significantly.
    Par 3: up to 260 yards/240 metres
    Par 4: 240 to 490 yards/220 to 450 metres
    Par 5: 450 to 710 Yards/410 to 650 metres
    Par 6: 670 yards and above /610 metres and above

    Like I said - that part was not clear to me. But my contact gave me an example of a course at our club where 'some kind of par' (for the course) would vary from 72 to 62 (in the case of a set of VERY forward tees that this course has).

    dave

    Posted:
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  • HatsForBatsHatsForBats Members  2021WRX Points: 296Handicap: 7Posts: 2,021 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2019 #23

    On -, @DaveLeeNC said:

    On -, @Colin L said:

    I don't recognise what you are referring to as "new par". Par is defined in the WHS rules as the score that a scratch would generally be expected to achieve on a hole under normal course and weather conditions, allowing for two strokes on the putting green. No change there for us. The recommendations for men are below. The distances vary a little from our current guidelines but not significantly.
    Par 3: up to 260 yards/240 metres
    Par 4: 240 to 490 yards/220 to 450 metres
    Par 5: 450 to 710 Yards/410 to 650 metres
    Par 6: 670 yards and above /610 metres and above

    Like I said - that part was not clear to me. But my contact gave me an example of a course at our club where 'some kind of par' (for the course) would vary from 72 to 62 (in the case of a set of VERY forward tees that this course has).

    dave

    Sounds a lot like Course Rating rounded to the nearest whole number. If they replaced what is now par with that I think it would be a big mistake but again without any official information it is tough to know how it will actually work.

    Posted:
  • Colin LColin L Members  2460WRX Points: 411Handicap: 16.5Posts: 2,460 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2019 #24

    Am I getting the right impression that at the moment you would have only one par for several different sets of tees no matter the differences in length and the same par for women as for men?

    I would have expected that each set of tees would be recognised as marking out a discrete course with its own par, course rating and slope rating for men and/or for women.

    A 10 stroke difference in par between the longest and shortest courses would indicate a significant difference in lengths but not out of the question. A Par 3 course, after all, is rather obviously only Par 54 in total.

    Posted:
  • DaveLeeNCDaveLeeNC Pinehurst, NCMembers  5861WRX Points: 529Posts: 5,861 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #25

    On -, @Colin L said:

    Am I getting the right impression that at the moment you would have only one par for several different sets of tees no matter the differences in length and the same par for women as for men?

    I would have expected that each set of tees would be recognised as marking out a discrete course with its own par, course rating and slope rating for men and/or for women.

    In most cases that I have seen in the US, par is unchanged across all the tees (with rare exceptions) for the men. Women get their 'own par' which also does not vary (but may be different from the men's par). This is like a 95+% 'rule'.

    dave

    Posted:
  • Colin LColin L Members  2460WRX Points: 411Handicap: 16.5Posts: 2,460 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #26

    Thanks Dave. That just doesn't make sense to me, but I presume each course has, however, its own course and slope rating?

    There are four sets of tees at my own club, three of them measured and rated for men. Each has a different par: 70, 69 and 66. Each will have its own course and slope rating for the WHS.

    Posted:
  • NewbyNewby Members  7903WRX Points: 675Posts: 7,903 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #27

    On -, @Colin L said:

    I don't recognise what you are referring to as "new par". Par is defined in the WHS rules as the score that a scratch would generally be expected to achieve on a hole under normal course and weather conditions, allowing for two strokes on the putting green. No change there for us. The recommendations for men are below. The distances vary a little from our current guidelines but not significantly.
    Par 3: up to 260 yards/240 metres
    Par 4: 240 to 490 yards/220 to 450 metres
    Par 5: 450 to 710 Yards/410 to 650 metres
    Par 6: 670 yards and above /610 metres and above

    I may be worth mentioning that currently, the distances vary from handicapping authority to handicapping authority. In addition, some are recommendations and some are mandatory.

    Posted:
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  • NewbyNewby Members  7903WRX Points: 675Posts: 7,903 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2019 #28

    Colin

    Do I remember your saying that Scotland will using the first formula in post #16 or was it one for stableford and the other for medal?

    Posted:
  • HaleboppHalebopp Members  3134WRX Points: 352Posts: 3,134 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #29

    On -, @Colin L said:

    Thanks Dave. That just doesn't make sense to me, but I presume each course has, however, its own course and slope rating?

    There are four sets of tees at my own club, three of them measured and rated for men. Each has a different par: 70, 69 and 66. Each will have its own course and slope rating for the WHS.

    Naturally all different sets of tees have and will have their own CR and Slope for men and women but I can't recall a single course in Finland with different par numbers for different genders or tees.

    Posted:
    Swing DNA: 91/4/3/6/6
    D: ST180 / 3W: GT 180 / 21º, MP-H5 / 4-PW: MP-4 / 50º: MP-T5 / 55º: FG Tour PMP  / 60º: Hi-Toe / Mizuno Bettinardi BC-4
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  • DaveLeeNCDaveLeeNC Pinehurst, NCMembers  5861WRX Points: 529Posts: 5,861 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #30

    On -, @Colin L said:

    Thanks Dave. That just doesn't make sense to me, but I presume each course has, however, its own course and slope rating?

    There are four sets of tees at my own club, three of them measured and rated for men. Each has a different par: 70, 69 and 66. Each will have its own course and slope rating for the WHS.

    Each set of tees has its own CR and Slope. But different pars is unusual. dave

    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • NewbyNewby Members  7903WRX Points: 675Posts: 7,903 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #31

    We have a 450, 444, 428 men's tees as par 4
    423, 413 ladies' tees as par 5

    Posted:
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