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Why all the hate towards loft jacking?

 golfinguru11 ·  
golfinguru11golfinguru11 Nor Cal 316Members Posts: 316
Joined:  in WRX Club Techs #1

As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

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Comments

  • PorscheFanPorscheFan  1330Members Posts: 1,330
    Joined:  #2

    @golfinguru11 said:
    As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

    It’s a fair point regarding high-bounce / low offset, although you’re still left with a cast club that’s filled with the gel from some implant operation gone wrong...

    I kid, of course.

    It doesn’t bother me what other people do, but it is an interesting point that average handicaps aren’t plummeting even with all of the ‘help’ golfers can get from equipment.

    I liken it to moving to the US and learning how to park badly. I used to be an excellent parker... forward, reverse, parallel... it didn’t matter. Then I moved to the US where parking spots are a lot larger and the tolerances for parking are a lot friendlier. Within a couple of years my parking skills had fallen off a cliff. Does all of this ‘help’ really help us over the long run? I dunno.

    Posted:
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  • DBurnsDBurns  42Members Posts: 42
    Joined:  #3

    My experience with jacked lofts is that the CGs are lower and the club face is hotter. Apex is about the same but the ball goes farther and still stops well. I like it.

    Posted:
  • HertsjoatmonHertsjoatmon A in golf theory, D- in golf practical Hertfordshire 259Members Posts: 259
    Joined:  #5

    @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    Posted:

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  • WristySwingWristySwing  21Members Posts: 21
    Joined:  #6

    @Hertsjoatmon said:

    @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    It's because you are right. 2* difference in loft on a wedge, usually due to the massive spin rate compared to a 6 or 7 iron (upwards of 60% more), then forward travel diminishes. I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*. Lastly, many are arguing using passion vs. fact. I bet there's a vanishingly small minority that have actually gone and given these types of clubs a fair shake for a few rounds. There are enough threads here of those saying that made the switch from player's irons to GI and are loving the IMPROVED consistency, height, and find no sacrifice in turf interaction, feel, spin, etc.

    Thik about it for a second, why would an OEM purposelfully make a club that made a player worse? I think most 90s shooters wouldn't be that thrilled if they suddenly started shooting 100 because their ball was bounding over greens, flying wildly in each direction due to the low spin and would be a recipe for that OEM to never be considered by that person and their friends ever again. It just doesn't make good business sense...even if you can massage their ego and make them think they gained a full club in yardage (the haters words, not mine).

    Posted:

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  • Howard JonesHoward Jones  9562Members Posts: 9,562
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2019 12:29pm #7

    @WristySwing said:

    @Hertsjoatmon said:

    @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    It's because you are right. 2* difference in loft on a wedge, usually due to the massive spin rate compared to a 6 or 7 iron (upwards of 60% more), then forward travel diminishes. I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*. Lastly, many are arguing using passion vs. fact. I bet there's a vanishingly small minority that have actually gone and given these types of clubs a fair shake for a few rounds. There are enough threads here of those saying that made the switch from player's irons to GI and are loving the IMPROVED consistency, height, and find no sacrifice in turf interaction, feel, spin, etc.

    Thik about it for a second, why would an OEM purposelfully make a club that made a player worse? I think most 90s shooters wouldn't be that thrilled if they suddenly started shooting 100 because their ball was bounding over greens, flying wildly in each direction due to the low spin and would be a recipe for that OEM to never be considered by that person and their friends ever again. It just doesn't make good business sense...even if you can massage their ego and make them think they gained a full club in yardage (the haters words, not mine).

    How long is play length of todays drivers?, do they improve the number of fairway hits for the average Golfer? or his average distance? do the player avoid buying "this years model" who is "even longer than ever" of the same brand? Then why would that be different to Irons? Just look at TM...players experience cracking heads, but keep buying TM. IF the player see a reason to change and got the money, he will, and he blame himself for why the clubs he play dont work good, ...they was just bad fit for him, or his swing has changed....

    2* change of loft on the same club is average 4-6 yards depending on club speed, so we count it as 2 - 3 yards for each degree of loft. In your example, 2 wedges example 52 vs 56 should be 6 yards of difference to carry, while most experience 10-12 depending on their club speed, and thats why the typical loft progression is 4-5 degree on wedges.

    And yes, for me both Golf and Fitting is Passion, but that dont mean im blind for what im talking about, i know how golf club works, or why they dont, or how to modify and make them to work, thats what ive been helping other players with in here since i joined this forum 10 years ago,

    Posted:
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  • balls_deepballs_deep Wanna earn 14 bucks the hard way? 1296Members Posts: 1,296
    Joined:  #8

    @Howard Jones said:
    Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

    I’d love to save this post and use it in reply to every thread saying that jacked lofts are the bees knees. I refuse to play a 7i stronger than 34 degrees.

    Posted:
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  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16  8028Members Posts: 8,028
    Joined:  #9

    @Howard Jones said:
    Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

    Cut some slack Howard, these threads are generally always started by forum no0bz with a small number of posts, they simply do not know any better....

    I can personally agree with you though, and it's the #1 reason why as much as I loved my P790's and want to game them again, I won't. I'll never forget the time I absolutely pured my tee shot on a par 3... I pulled it a little bit so my face was shut and dynamic loft lowered a bit. I flew it TWENTY yards over the green, OB, over a fence, into somebody's backyard. Thankfully nobody got hurt. I sold them shortly after. And yes I pulled the right club.

    That literally would not happen with my P770's now. A magically struck pure shot in the sweet spot might only go a few yards more than if it was just a few mm next to the clubs sweet spot. With my 790's, I had multiple shots where my ball went 10-15 yards further than I thought it should, almost always off the tee. I know balls hit a bit higher on the face will launch a touch more and spin a bit less but I couldn't handle the thought that my ball might fly in a manner I couldn't control.

    I'll never game hollow body distance irons ever again simply because of those moments, especially because one could have damaged property or a person.

    Posted:

  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub  2500Members Posts: 2,500
    Joined:  #10

    @golfinguru11 said:
    As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

    For that specific application, yes it could be a benefit, but you aren't REALLY wondering why all the hate exists for that reason, right? I mean who else is approaching these irons that way?

    The hate exists because it is somewhat dishonest, ego based marketing designed to cater towards the aging casual golfer demographic who wants to feel like they aren't losing it as they get older. Some of us have coopted these clubs for specific uses (long iron replacement/driving iron) but all in all they are not something that will generally be "good" for the game because as Howard said, irons are not a distance club. But guys like my club tech, who is pushing 80, love their P790s because he thinks he hits his 9-iron 155 yards now when in reality its a 7-iron.

    Posted:
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  • Howard JonesHoward Jones  9562Members Posts: 9,562
    Joined:  #11

    @Z1ggy16 said:

    @Howard Jones said:
    Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

    Cut some slack Howard, these threads are generally always started by forum no0bz with a small number of posts, they simply do not know any better....

    I can personally agree with you though, and it's the #1 reason why as much as I loved my P790's and want to game them again, I won't. I'll never forget the time I absolutely pured my tee shot on a par 3... I pulled it a little bit so my face was shut and dynamic loft lowered a bit. I flew it TWENTY yards over the green, OB, over a fence, into somebody's backyard. Thankfully nobody got hurt. I sold them shortly after. And yes I pulled the right club.

    That literally would not happen with my P770's now. A magically struck pure shot in the sweet spot might only go a few yards more than if it was just a few mm next to the clubs sweet spot. With my 790's, I had multiple shots where my ball went 10-15 yards further than I thought it should, almost always off the tee. I know balls hit a bit higher on the face will launch a touch more and spin a bit less but I couldn't handle the thought that my ball might fly in a manner I couldn't control.

    I'll never game hollow body distance irons ever again simply because of those moments, especially because one could have damaged property or a person.

    Ive had a few players who came to get a Gap and Dispersion tweak, but thats close to impossible on a set like this where a club can overlap by 2 irons when you pure it, so dispersion is CRAP and nothing you can do anything about, so all i could help with was lie angles and loft gaps, but thats NOT the same as carry gaps...Irons is PRECISION for approach and par 3 holes, so my advice is, stay away from this type of irons, they want help your game. If you struggle with distance, use Hybrids in the long end. Im using Hybrids as both 4 and 5 iron replacement for that reason, and forgiveness is way better and ball speed more constant than any of this irons can offer.

    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • NRJyzrNRJyzr Allez Allez Allez Minnesota, USA 6677Members Posts: 6,677
    Joined:  #13

    @DBurns said:
    My experience with jacked lofts is that the CGs are lower and the club face is hotter. Apex is about the same but the ball goes farther and still stops well. I like it.

    Except, the CGs AREN'T lower. They're also not farther back.

    Tom Wishon, who's done a bit of club design in his day, has posted about this many times. There's no good reason to jack the lofts except to sell clubs to people who value the distance they hit their irons.

    Posted:
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  • vmanvman  1262Members Posts: 1,262
    Joined:  #14

    I have the Apex cf19 5-pw with lofts at 24,28,32,36,40,44 my MD forged wedges are 49,54,59. I don't have any issues with distance control/gaps or hotspots/fliers with these irons. They're are about as good an iron as I've ever played with superb distance control.

    Posted:
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  • Zengolfer36Zengolfer36 Columbus, OH 150Members Posts: 150
    Joined:  #15

    Im personally not a fan of loft jacking because it lowers spin, which makes it more difficult to stop the ball on the green and on longer clubs, theres not enough spin to keep the ball in the air.
    I used to think loft jacking wasnt a big deal until I got my old Titleist DCI 981s out of the closet and saw much easier they were to hit and how much better I could control my ball with them.

    Posted:
  • WristySwingWristySwing  21Members Posts: 21
    Joined:  #16

    @Howard Jones said:

    @WristySwing said:

    @Hertsjoatmon said:

    @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    It's because you are right. 2* difference in loft on a wedge, usually due to the massive spin rate compared to a 6 or 7 iron (upwards of 60% more), then forward travel diminishes. I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*. Lastly, many are arguing using passion vs. fact. I bet there's a vanishingly small minority that have actually gone and given these types of clubs a fair shake for a few rounds. There are enough threads here of those saying that made the switch from player's irons to GI and are loving the IMPROVED consistency, height, and find no sacrifice in turf interaction, feel, spin, etc.

    Thik about it for a second, why would an OEM purposelfully make a club that made a player worse? I think most 90s shooters wouldn't be that thrilled if they suddenly started shooting 100 because their ball was bounding over greens, flying wildly in each direction due to the low spin and would be a recipe for that OEM to never be considered by that person and their friends ever again. It just doesn't make good business sense...even if you can massage their ego and make them think they gained a full club in yardage (the haters words, not mine).

    How long is play length of todays drivers?, do they improve the number of fairway hits for the average Golfer? or his average distance? do the player avoid buying "this years model" who is "even longer than ever" of the same brand? Then why would that be different to Irons? Just look at TM...players experience cracking heads, but keep buying TM. IF the player see a reason to change and got the money, he will, and he blame himself for why the clubs he play dont work good, ...they was just bad fit for him, or his swing has changed....

    2* change of loft on the same club is average 4-6 yards depending on club speed, so we count it as 2 - 3 yards for each degree of loft. In your example, 2 wedges example 52 vs 56 should be 6 yards of difference to carry, while most experience 10-12 depending on their club speed, and thats why the typical loft progression is 4-5 degree on wedges.

    And yes, for me both Golf and Fitting is Passion, but that dont mean im blind for what im talking about, i know how golf club works, or why they dont, or how to modify and make them to work, thats what ive been helping other players with in here since i joined this forum 10 years ago,

    I said slower speed and more spin = less distance discrepancy on a wedge meaning less instances of extreme forward momentum due solely to loft. Been fitting for 20 years, never seen someone gain a significant amount of yardage with a 44* vs. a 46* PW. Read it again, please.

    Posted:

    Cobra F9 - Ventus Black
    Ping G410 4 wood and 7 wood (16.5-20.5) - Rogue Black 130
    Callaway Big Bertha 2019 hybrid 5H-8H (24-35) - Diamana Thump Hy for when the back is bad
    Mizuno Hot Metal Pro 5-P (23-45) - Accra i110 for when the back is great
    Cleveland CBX2 GW and SW (50-55) - Accra i123
    Taylormade Hi-Toe Big Foot ATV - Accra i123
    Bettinardi Custom 1 of 1 or Scotty Teryllium T22 NP2 - Stability
    Always Lamkin Grips

  • buckeyeflbuckeyefl  6088Members Posts: 6,088
    Joined:  #17

    @WristySwing said:

    @Howard Jones said:

    @WristySwing said:

    @Hertsjoatmon said:

    @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    It's because you are right. 2* difference in loft on a wedge, usually due to the massive spin rate compared to a 6 or 7 iron (upwards of 60% more), then forward travel diminishes. I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*. Lastly, many are arguing using passion vs. fact. I bet there's a vanishingly small minority that have actually gone and given these types of clubs a fair shake for a few rounds. There are enough threads here of those saying that made the switch from player's irons to GI and are loving the IMPROVED consistency, height, and find no sacrifice in turf interaction, feel, spin, etc.

    Thik about it for a second, why would an OEM purposelfully make a club that made a player worse? I think most 90s shooters wouldn't be that thrilled if they suddenly started shooting 100 because their ball was bounding over greens, flying wildly in each direction due to the low spin and would be a recipe for that OEM to never be considered by that person and their friends ever again. It just doesn't make good business sense...even if you can massage their ego and make them think they gained a full club in yardage (the haters words, not mine).

    How long is play length of todays drivers?, do they improve the number of fairway hits for the average Golfer? or his average distance? do the player avoid buying "this years model" who is "even longer than ever" of the same brand? Then why would that be different to Irons? Just look at TM...players experience cracking heads, but keep buying TM. IF the player see a reason to change and got the money, he will, and he blame himself for why the clubs he play dont work good, ...they was just bad fit for him, or his swing has changed....

    2* change of loft on the same club is average 4-6 yards depending on club speed, so we count it as 2 - 3 yards for each degree of loft. In your example, 2 wedges example 52 vs 56 should be 6 yards of difference to carry, while most experience 10-12 depending on their club speed, and thats why the typical loft progression is 4-5 degree on wedges.

    And yes, for me both Golf and Fitting is Passion, but that dont mean im blind for what im talking about, i know how golf club works, or why they dont, or how to modify and make them to work, thats what ive been helping other players with in here since i joined this forum 10 years ago,

    I said slower speed and more spin = less distance discrepancy on a wedge meaning less instances of extreme forward momentum due solely to loft. Been fitting for 20 years, never seen someone gain a significant amount of yardage with a 44* vs. a 46* PW. Read it again, please.

    Define significant.

    Posted:
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  • golfinguru11golfinguru11 Nor Cal 316Members Posts: 316
    Joined:  #18

    @Z1ggy16 said:

    @Howard Jones said:
    Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

    Cut some slack Howard, these threads are generally always started by forum no0bz with a small number of posts, they simply do not know any better....

    I feel like you just didn’t read my original post. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure any of you did.

    Posted:
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    Callaway Epic Flash SZ 15* - Accra TZ6 75 x
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20* - VA Raijin 84 x
    Mizuno MP-54 (4,5) MP-20 (6-PW) - Nippon Modus 125 s
    Vokey SM7 RAW 52F 56S 60D - Nippon Modus 125 wedge
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  • golfinguru11golfinguru11 Nor Cal 316Members Posts: 316
    Joined:  #19

    @PorscheFan said:

    @golfinguru11 said:
    As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

    It’s a fair point regarding high-bounce / low offset, although you’re still left with a cast club that’s filled with the gel from some implant operation gone wrong...

    You seem to be the only one who actually read my post. I was more referring to clubs like the apex pro, Srixon 785, i210, mp 20 mb/Mmc etc.

    Posted:
    Callaway Epic Flash SZ 10.5* - Aldila 130msi Rogue Black 60 tx 
    Callaway Epic Flash SZ 15* - Accra TZ6 75 x
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20* - VA Raijin 84 x
    Mizuno MP-54 (4,5) MP-20 (6-PW) - Nippon Modus 125 s
    Vokey SM7 RAW 52F 56S 60D - Nippon Modus 125 wedge
    Odyssey White Hot 2 Ball 

    Lefty, Lead tape enthusiast
  • PorscheFanPorscheFan  1330Members Posts: 1,330
    Joined:  #20

    @golfinguru11 said:

    @PorscheFan said:

    @golfinguru11 said:
    As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

    It’s a fair point regarding high-bounce / low offset, although you’re still left with a cast club that’s filled with the gel from some implant operation gone wrong...

    You seem to be the only one who actually read my post. I was more referring to clubs like the apex pro, Srixon 785, i210, mp 20 mb/Mmc etc.

    I assumed you were making a tongue-in-cheek comment regarding clubs with jacked lofts in general and an interesting point regarding increasing bounce and reducing offset with a weakening of loft.

    The whole jacked up loft thing is an emotive topic for sure. Deservedly so, probably.

    Posted:
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones  9562Members Posts: 9,562
    Joined:  edited Oct 10, 2019 5:20am #21

    @WristySwing said:

    @Howard Jones said:

    @WristySwing said:

    @Hertsjoatmon said:

    @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    It's because you are right. 2* difference in loft on a wedge, usually due to the massive spin rate compared to a 6 or 7 iron (upwards of 60% more), then forward travel diminishes. I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*. Lastly, many are arguing using passion vs. fact. I bet there's a vanishingly small minority that have actually gone and given these types of clubs a fair shake for a few rounds. There are enough threads here of those saying that made the switch from player's irons to GI and are loving the IMPROVED consistency, height, and find no sacrifice in turf interaction, feel, spin, etc.

    Thik about it for a second, why would an OEM purposelfully make a club that made a player worse? I think most 90s shooters wouldn't be that thrilled if they suddenly started shooting 100 because their ball was bounding over greens, flying wildly in each direction due to the low spin and would be a recipe for that OEM to never be considered by that person and their friends ever again. It just doesn't make good business sense...even if you can massage their ego and make them think they gained a full club in yardage (the haters words, not mine).

    How long is play length of todays drivers?, do they improve the number of fairway hits for the average Golfer? or his average distance? do the player avoid buying "this years model" who is "even longer than ever" of the same brand? Then why would that be different to Irons? Just look at TM...players experience cracking heads, but keep buying TM. IF the player see a reason to change and got the money, he will, and he blame himself for why the clubs he play dont work good, ...they was just bad fit for him, or his swing has changed....

    2* change of loft on the same club is average 4-6 yards depending on club speed, so we count it as 2 - 3 yards for each degree of loft. In your example, 2 wedges example 52 vs 56 should be 6 yards of difference to carry, while most experience 10-12 depending on their club speed, and thats why the typical loft progression is 4-5 degree on wedges.

    And yes, for me both Golf and Fitting is Passion, but that dont mean im blind for what im talking about, i know how golf club works, or why they dont, or how to modify and make them to work, thats what ive been helping other players with in here since i joined this forum 10 years ago,

    I said slower speed and more spin = less distance discrepancy on a wedge meaning less instances of extreme forward momentum due solely to loft. Been fitting for 20 years, never seen someone gain a significant amount of yardage with a 44* vs. a 46* PW. Read it again, please.

    you DID NOT say anything of what you type now, i quoted it, and now ive been reading it again, so please cut the crap. Here is what you posted, and what i replied to.

    The word significant makes no sense here, we measure distance in yards or meters and use a number to express it, not a opinion.

    There is a tread about a player who got to large gaps from his 48* to his 56* and the advice was to add a 52* GW.
    That means 4* on gaps, and his carry gaps now look like this, and ive added a row for change in carry if loft was 2* as difference, and we get a little more than 6 yards, your wrote " I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*"......., and you claim you have been a club fitter for 20 years? No wonder the reputation of club fitters is like it is, if this is representative for the average knowledge level.

    Posted:
    Post edited by Howard Jones on
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones  9562Members Posts: 9,562
    Joined:  edited Oct 10, 2019 5:26am #22

    @golfinguru11 said:

    @Z1ggy16 said:

    @Howard Jones said:
    Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

    Cut some slack Howard, these threads are generally always started by forum no0bz with a small number of posts, they simply do not know any better....

    I feel like you just didn’t read my original post. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure any of you did.

    If you mean BENDING, then DONT use the term "jacking", thats the term used for strong lofted irons to gain distance.
    Bending clubs either stronger or weaker for ball flight and carry gaps is NOT "Jacking loft", so you started out using the wrong term who is related to something else, thats why you got the replies you did

    Posted:
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  • SuperbritSuperbrit  538Members Posts: 538
    Joined:  #23

    @golfinguru11 said:
    As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

    Generally speaking lower lofted irons start off with more offset anyway, so essentially your just altering them to more of a players club thats probably already in the OEM's range.

    Unless you get a strong lofted iron with already low offset, not tons of choice though

    Posted:

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  • PorscheFanPorscheFan  1330Members Posts: 1,330
    Joined:  #24

    @Howard Jones said:

    If you mean BENDING, then DONT use the term "jacking", thats the term used for strong lofted irons to gain distance.
    Bending clubs either stronger or weaker for ball flight and carry gaps is NOT "Jacking loft", so you started out using the wrong term who is related to something else, thats why you got the replies you did

    Howard, I think what he was trying to say was that he can take clubs with jacked lofts (what we generally understand by the term) and make them functional by weakening the lofts, and in the process adding bounce.

    I don’t think he mean to apply the term ‘jacking’ to bending per se.

    I think he was trying - in a sarcastic way - to say that clubs with jacked lofts aren’t functional, which is somewhat aligned with your point of view.

    At least that’s how I’m interpreting it.

    Posted:
  • Howard JonesHoward Jones  9562Members Posts: 9,562
    Joined:  #25

    @PorscheFan said:

    @Howard Jones said:

    If you mean BENDING, then DONT use the term "jacking", thats the term used for strong lofted irons to gain distance.
    Bending clubs either stronger or weaker for ball flight and carry gaps is NOT "Jacking loft", so you started out using the wrong term who is related to something else, thats why you got the replies you did

    Howard, I think what he was trying to say was that he can take clubs with jacked lofts (what we generally understand by the term) and make them functional by weakening the lofts, and in the process adding bounce.

    I don’t think he mean to apply the term ‘jacking’ to bending per se.

    I think he was trying - in a sarcastic way - to say that clubs with jacked lofts aren’t functional, which is somewhat aligned with your point of view.

    At least that’s how I’m interpreting it.

    I understand what he means, but look at the header again..."Hate towards loft jacking"....but if he means against bending lofts to get ball flight or gapping right, there is no hate against it, so he is causing this misunderstandings himself by using a term thats established and means "silly strong lofted irons".

    Posted:
  • playaplaya  8753Members Posts: 8,753
    Joined:  #26

    I think the hate exists because of the way they are marketed Yes the club with 7 stamped on it flies further than traditional 7 irons, but the extra yards are from length of shaft and jacked lofts, not the new tech OEMs would have you believe. I have no real issue with jacked lofts and 7 irons going a club further relative to previous generation irons, just don't **** on my back and tell me it's raining.

    Posted:
  • oiler45oiler45  278Members Posts: 278
    Joined:  #27

    Howard et al - I am not trying to be a smart **** or a contrarian … but … help me out here with the dislike (hate is too strong a word) on the new iron lofting strategy. If my 7 old traditional irons (4-PW) are now replaced with my new set of 7 irons (5-GW) that cover the same distance and gapping - what is the difference? I know this question has been asked numerous times but I still haven't seen a valid response? If my new 5 iron has the same loft as my old 4 iron (and so on throughout the set) what is the difference? I still have 14 clubs overall - the same number of woods and irons as before. My new 8 goes the same distance as my old 7 - cause the lofts are the same - same as my new GW versus my old PW. What am I missing?
    Thanks

    Posted:
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  • Howard JonesHoward Jones  9562Members Posts: 9,562
    Joined:  #28

    scroll up to whats already written, its no reason to write it again

    Posted:
  • KMeloneyKMeloney  4864Members Posts: 4,864
    Joined:  #29

    The emotional responses in these threads come from being told that the great experience you're having with your gel-filled, jacked-lofts irons isn't real, that your tight dispersion is crap, and that your approach shots that sit right down, don't.

    Posted:
  • jholzjholz  1462Members Posts: 1,462
    Joined:  #30

    I think there is one real legitimate reason to dislike (hate is way to strong of a work for this context) jacked iron lofts. The fact that it tends to screw up the bottom end of the bag. A 43* PW leaves a huge hole to fill.

    Everyone says "just get the set gap wedge" but **** if I do that, I'm just playing a set with traditional lofts that have different numbers on the bottom. Recognizing that, I'm forced to question the whole practice.

    Posted:
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    Callaway Diablo Edge Tour Hybrid 21* - Aldila NV 85 Stiff
    Callaway RAZR Tour Hybrid 24* - Stock XStiff
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  • AG12AG12  1401Members Posts: 1,401
    Joined:  #31

    I like my gel filled, "jacked" lofted irons.....keeps me at a 10 HC and I dont see myself playing a butter knife or a less forgiving head to get "traditional" lofts. Plus I like the bounce and sole of my irons, bending them weaker for the sake of it would only hurt my game.

    Posted:
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