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Why all the hate towards loft jacking?

 golfinguru11 ·  
golfinguru11golfinguru11 Nor CalMembers  333WRX Points: 227Handicap: 1.8Posts: 333 Greens
Joined:  in WRX Club Techs #1

As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

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  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Members  1344WRX Points: 204Handicap: 12Posts: 1,344 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @golfinguru11 said:

    As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

    It’s a fair point regarding high-bounce / low offset, although you’re still left with a cast club that’s filled with the gel from some implant operation gone wrong...

    I kid, of course.

    It doesn’t bother me what other people do, but it is an interesting point that average handicaps aren’t plummeting even with all of the ‘help’ golfers can get from equipment.

    I liken it to moving to the US and learning how to park badly. I used to be an excellent parker... forward, reverse, parallel... it didn’t matter. Then I moved to the US where parking spots are a lot larger and the tolerances for parking are a lot friendlier. Within a couple of years my parking skills had fallen off a cliff. Does all of this ‘help’ really help us over the long run? I dunno.

    Posted:
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  • DBurnsDBurns Members  42WRX Points: 36Posts: 42 Bunkers
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    My experience with jacked lofts is that the CGs are lower and the club face is hotter. Apex is about the same but the ball goes farther and still stops well. I like it.

    Posted:
  • HertsjoatmonHertsjoatmon A in golf theory, D- in golf practical HertfordshireMembers  353WRX Points: 130Handicap: 18Posts: 353 Greens
    Joined:  #5

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    Posted:
  • WristySwingWristySwing Members  963WRX Points: 621Posts: 963 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #6

    On -, @Hertsjoatmon said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    It's because you are right. 2* difference in loft on a wedge, usually due to the massive spin rate compared to a 6 or 7 iron (upwards of 60% more), then forward travel diminishes. I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*. Lastly, many are arguing using passion vs. fact. I bet there's a vanishingly small minority that have actually gone and given these types of clubs a fair shake for a few rounds. There are enough threads here of those saying that made the switch from player's irons to GI and are loving the IMPROVED consistency, height, and find no sacrifice in turf interaction, feel, spin, etc.

    Thik about it for a second, why would an OEM purposelfully make a club that made a player worse? I think most 90s shooters wouldn't be that thrilled if they suddenly started shooting 100 because their ball was bounding over greens, flying wildly in each direction due to the low spin and would be a recipe for that OEM to never be considered by that person and their friends ever again. It just doesn't make good business sense...even if you can massage their ego and make them think they gained a full club in yardage (the haters words, not mine).

    Posted:

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11578WRX Points: 2,263Posts: 11,578 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 9, 2019 #7

    On -, @WristySwing said:

    On -, @Hertsjoatmon said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    It's because you are right. 2* difference in loft on a wedge, usually due to the massive spin rate compared to a 6 or 7 iron (upwards of 60% more), then forward travel diminishes. I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*. Lastly, many are arguing using passion vs. fact. I bet there's a vanishingly small minority that have actually gone and given these types of clubs a fair shake for a few rounds. There are enough threads here of those saying that made the switch from player's irons to GI and are loving the IMPROVED consistency, height, and find no sacrifice in turf interaction, feel, spin, etc.

    Thik about it for a second, why would an OEM purposelfully make a club that made a player worse? I think most 90s shooters wouldn't be that thrilled if they suddenly started shooting 100 because their ball was bounding over greens, flying wildly in each direction due to the low spin and would be a recipe for that OEM to never be considered by that person and their friends ever again. It just doesn't make good business sense...even if you can massage their ego and make them think they gained a full club in yardage (the haters words, not mine).

    How long is play length of todays drivers?, do they improve the number of fairway hits for the average Golfer? or his average distance? do the player avoid buying "this years model" who is "even longer than ever" of the same brand? Then why would that be different to Irons? Just look at TM...players experience cracking heads, but keep buying TM. IF the player see a reason to change and got the money, he will, and he blame himself for why the clubs he play dont work good, ...they was just bad fit for him, or his swing has changed....

    2* change of loft on the same club is average 4-6 yards depending on club speed, so we count it as 2 - 3 yards for each degree of loft. In your example, 2 wedges example 52 vs 56 should be 6 yards of difference to carry, while most experience 10-12 depending on their club speed, and thats why the typical loft progression is 4-5 degree on wedges.

    And yes, for me both Golf and Fitting is Passion, but that dont mean im blind for what im talking about, i know how golf club works, or why they dont, or how to modify and make them to work, thats what ive been helping other players with in here since i joined this forum 10 years ago,

    Posted:

    PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME PMs ON CLUB TECH ISSUES - ASK PUBLIC IN THE FORUM.

    Unless you are a former Customer or someone i already have a PM dialog with, i want reply to tech questions on PMs.

  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • TigerInTheWoodsTigerInTheWoods Members  2711WRX Points: 1,703Handicap: 3Posts: 2,711 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

    I’d love to save this post and use it in reply to every thread saying that jacked lofts are the bees knees. I refuse to play a 7i stronger than 34 degrees.

    Posted:

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  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members  9783WRX Points: 1,671Posts: 9,783 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

    Cut some slack Howard, these threads are generally always started by forum no0bz with a small number of posts, they simply do not know any better....

    I can personally agree with you though, and it's the #1 reason why as much as I loved my P790's and want to game them again, I won't. I'll never forget the time I absolutely pured my tee shot on a par 3... I pulled it a little bit so my face was shut and dynamic loft lowered a bit. I flew it TWENTY yards over the green, OB, over a fence, into somebody's backyard. Thankfully nobody got hurt. I sold them shortly after. And yes I pulled the right club.

    That literally would not happen with my P770's now. A magically struck pure shot in the sweet spot might only go a few yards more than if it was just a few mm next to the clubs sweet spot. With my 790's, I had multiple shots where my ball went 10-15 yards further than I thought it should, almost always off the tee. I know balls hit a bit higher on the face will launch a touch more and spin a bit less but I couldn't handle the thought that my ball might fly in a manner I couldn't control.

    I'll never game hollow body distance irons ever again simply because of those moments, especially because one could have damaged property or a person.

    Posted:
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  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members  3961WRX Points: 1,983Handicap: 1.7Posts: 3,961 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #10

    On -, @golfinguru11 said:

    As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

    For that specific application, yes it could be a benefit, but you aren't REALLY wondering why all the hate exists for that reason, right? I mean who else is approaching these irons that way?

    The hate exists because it is somewhat dishonest, ego based marketing designed to cater towards the aging casual golfer demographic who wants to feel like they aren't losing it as they get older. Some of us have coopted these clubs for specific uses (long iron replacement/driving iron) but all in all they are not something that will generally be "good" for the game because as Howard said, irons are not a distance club. But guys like my club tech, who is pushing 80, love their P790s because he thinks he hits his 9-iron 155 yards now when in reality its a 7-iron.

    Posted:
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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11578WRX Points: 2,263Posts: 11,578 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Z1ggy16 said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

    Cut some slack Howard, these threads are generally always started by forum no0bz with a small number of posts, they simply do not know any better....

    I can personally agree with you though, and it's the #1 reason why as much as I loved my P790's and want to game them again, I won't. I'll never forget the time I absolutely pured my tee shot on a par 3... I pulled it a little bit so my face was shut and dynamic loft lowered a bit. I flew it TWENTY yards over the green, OB, over a fence, into somebody's backyard. Thankfully nobody got hurt. I sold them shortly after. And yes I pulled the right club.

    That literally would not happen with my P770's now. A magically struck pure shot in the sweet spot might only go a few yards more than if it was just a few mm next to the clubs sweet spot. With my 790's, I had multiple shots where my ball went 10-15 yards further than I thought it should, almost always off the tee. I know balls hit a bit higher on the face will launch a touch more and spin a bit less but I couldn't handle the thought that my ball might fly in a manner I couldn't control.

    I'll never game hollow body distance irons ever again simply because of those moments, especially because one could have damaged property or a person.

    Ive had a few players who came to get a Gap and Dispersion tweak, but thats close to impossible on a set like this where a club can overlap by 2 irons when you pure it, so dispersion is CRAP and nothing you can do anything about, so all i could help with was lie angles and loft gaps, but thats NOT the same as carry gaps...Irons is PRECISION for approach and par 3 holes, so my advice is, stay away from this type of irons, they want help your game. If you struggle with distance, use Hybrids in the long end. Im using Hybrids as both 4 and 5 iron replacement for that reason, and forgiveness is way better and ball speed more constant than any of this irons can offer.

    Posted:

    PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME PMs ON CLUB TECH ISSUES - ASK PUBLIC IN THE FORUM.

    Unless you are a former Customer or someone i already have a PM dialog with, i want reply to tech questions on PMs.

  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • NRJyzrNRJyzr I would only like to add that I have nothing to add Minnesota, USAMembers  7411WRX Points: 1,456Handicap: 7Posts: 7,411 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @DBurns said:

    My experience with jacked lofts is that the CGs are lower and the club face is hotter. Apex is about the same but the ball goes farther and still stops well. I like it.

    Except, the CGs AREN'T lower. They're also not farther back.

    Tom Wishon, who's done a bit of club design in his day, has posted about this many times. There's no good reason to jack the lofts except to sell clubs to people who value the distance they hit their irons.

    Posted:
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    3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, DGS400 or NV105 S
    Irons grab bag:  Mizuno MP-37, DGS300; Golden Ram TW276, NV105; Golden Ram TW282, Precision 6.5; Ram TG-898, Super Peening Blue X; 1980 Golden Rams, Dynamic S; MacGregor Muirfield, Dynamic S; Wilson Staff 78 Tour Blades, Dynamic S
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    Also sometimes swap in old school woods at top of bag, various Golden Ram, MacGregor, or Orlimar persimmons
  • vmanvman Members  1404WRX Points: 250Handicap: ProPosts: 1,404 Platinum Tees
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    I have the Apex cf19 5-pw with lofts at 24,28,32,36,40,44 my MD forged wedges are 49,54,59. I don't have any issues with distance control/gaps or hotspots/fliers with these irons. They're are about as good an iron as I've ever played with superb distance control.

    Posted:
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  • Zen_GolferZen_Golfer Columbus, OHMembers  365WRX Points: 238Handicap: 10Posts: 365 Greens
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    Im personally not a fan of loft jacking because it lowers spin, which makes it more difficult to stop the ball on the green and on longer clubs, theres not enough spin to keep the ball in the air.
    I used to think loft jacking wasnt a big deal until I got my old Titleist DCI 981s out of the closet and saw much easier they were to hit and how much better I could control my ball with them.

    Posted:
  • WristySwingWristySwing Members  963WRX Points: 621Posts: 963 Golden Tee
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    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    On -, @WristySwing said:

    On -, @Hertsjoatmon said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    It's because you are right. 2* difference in loft on a wedge, usually due to the massive spin rate compared to a 6 or 7 iron (upwards of 60% more), then forward travel diminishes. I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*. Lastly, many are arguing using passion vs. fact. I bet there's a vanishingly small minority that have actually gone and given these types of clubs a fair shake for a few rounds. There are enough threads here of those saying that made the switch from player's irons to GI and are loving the IMPROVED consistency, height, and find no sacrifice in turf interaction, feel, spin, etc.

    Thik about it for a second, why would an OEM purposelfully make a club that made a player worse? I think most 90s shooters wouldn't be that thrilled if they suddenly started shooting 100 because their ball was bounding over greens, flying wildly in each direction due to the low spin and would be a recipe for that OEM to never be considered by that person and their friends ever again. It just doesn't make good business sense...even if you can massage their ego and make them think they gained a full club in yardage (the haters words, not mine).

    How long is play length of todays drivers?, do they improve the number of fairway hits for the average Golfer? or his average distance? do the player avoid buying "this years model" who is "even longer than ever" of the same brand? Then why would that be different to Irons? Just look at TM...players experience cracking heads, but keep buying TM. IF the player see a reason to change and got the money, he will, and he blame himself for why the clubs he play dont work good, ...they was just bad fit for him, or his swing has changed....

    2* change of loft on the same club is average 4-6 yards depending on club speed, so we count it as 2 - 3 yards for each degree of loft. In your example, 2 wedges example 52 vs 56 should be 6 yards of difference to carry, while most experience 10-12 depending on their club speed, and thats why the typical loft progression is 4-5 degree on wedges.

    And yes, for me both Golf and Fitting is Passion, but that dont mean im blind for what im talking about, i know how golf club works, or why they dont, or how to modify and make them to work, thats what ive been helping other players with in here since i joined this forum 10 years ago,

    I said slower speed and more spin = less distance discrepancy on a wedge meaning less instances of extreme forward momentum due solely to loft. Been fitting for 20 years, never seen someone gain a significant amount of yardage with a 44* vs. a 46* PW. Read it again, please.

    Posted:

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  • buckeyeflbuckeyefl Members  6106WRX Points: 1,101Posts: 6,106 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @WristySwing said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    On -, @WristySwing said:

    On -, @Hertsjoatmon said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    It's because you are right. 2* difference in loft on a wedge, usually due to the massive spin rate compared to a 6 or 7 iron (upwards of 60% more), then forward travel diminishes. I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*. Lastly, many are arguing using passion vs. fact. I bet there's a vanishingly small minority that have actually gone and given these types of clubs a fair shake for a few rounds. There are enough threads here of those saying that made the switch from player's irons to GI and are loving the IMPROVED consistency, height, and find no sacrifice in turf interaction, feel, spin, etc.

    Thik about it for a second, why would an OEM purposelfully make a club that made a player worse? I think most 90s shooters wouldn't be that thrilled if they suddenly started shooting 100 because their ball was bounding over greens, flying wildly in each direction due to the low spin and would be a recipe for that OEM to never be considered by that person and their friends ever again. It just doesn't make good business sense...even if you can massage their ego and make them think they gained a full club in yardage (the haters words, not mine).

    How long is play length of todays drivers?, do they improve the number of fairway hits for the average Golfer? or his average distance? do the player avoid buying "this years model" who is "even longer than ever" of the same brand? Then why would that be different to Irons? Just look at TM...players experience cracking heads, but keep buying TM. IF the player see a reason to change and got the money, he will, and he blame himself for why the clubs he play dont work good, ...they was just bad fit for him, or his swing has changed....

    2* change of loft on the same club is average 4-6 yards depending on club speed, so we count it as 2 - 3 yards for each degree of loft. In your example, 2 wedges example 52 vs 56 should be 6 yards of difference to carry, while most experience 10-12 depending on their club speed, and thats why the typical loft progression is 4-5 degree on wedges.

    And yes, for me both Golf and Fitting is Passion, but that dont mean im blind for what im talking about, i know how golf club works, or why they dont, or how to modify and make them to work, thats what ive been helping other players with in here since i joined this forum 10 years ago,

    I said slower speed and more spin = less distance discrepancy on a wedge meaning less instances of extreme forward momentum due solely to loft. Been fitting for 20 years, never seen someone gain a significant amount of yardage with a 44* vs. a 46* PW. Read it again, please.

    Define significant.

    Posted:
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  • golfinguru11golfinguru11 Nor CalMembers  333WRX Points: 227Handicap: 1.8Posts: 333 Greens
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    On -, @Z1ggy16 said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

    Cut some slack Howard, these threads are generally always started by forum no0bz with a small number of posts, they simply do not know any better....

    I feel like you just didn’t read my original post. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure any of you did.

    Posted:
    Callaway Epic Flash SZ 10.5* - Aldila 130msi Rogue Black 60 tx 
    Callaway Epic Flash SZ 15* - Accra TZ6 75 x
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20* - VA Raijin 84 x
    Mizuno MP-54 (4,5) MP-20 (6-PW) - Nippon Modus 125 s
    Vokey SM7 RAW 52F 56S 60D - Nippon Modus 125 wedge
    Odyssey White Hot 2 Ball 

    Lefty, Lead tape enthusiast
  • golfinguru11golfinguru11 Nor CalMembers  333WRX Points: 227Handicap: 1.8Posts: 333 Greens
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    On -, @PorscheFan said:

    On -, @golfinguru11 said:

    As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

    It’s a fair point regarding high-bounce / low offset, although you’re still left with a cast club that’s filled with the gel from some implant operation gone wrong...

    You seem to be the only one who actually read my post. I was more referring to clubs like the apex pro, Srixon 785, i210, mp 20 mb/Mmc etc.

    Posted:
    Callaway Epic Flash SZ 10.5* - Aldila 130msi Rogue Black 60 tx 
    Callaway Epic Flash SZ 15* - Accra TZ6 75 x
    Callaway Apex Hybrid 20* - VA Raijin 84 x
    Mizuno MP-54 (4,5) MP-20 (6-PW) - Nippon Modus 125 s
    Vokey SM7 RAW 52F 56S 60D - Nippon Modus 125 wedge
    Odyssey White Hot 2 Ball 

    Lefty, Lead tape enthusiast
  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Members  1344WRX Points: 204Handicap: 12Posts: 1,344 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @golfinguru11 said:

    On -, @PorscheFan said:

    On -, @golfinguru11 said:

    As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

    It’s a fair point regarding high-bounce / low offset, although you’re still left with a cast club that’s filled with the gel from some implant operation gone wrong...

    You seem to be the only one who actually read my post. I was more referring to clubs like the apex pro, Srixon 785, i210, mp 20 mb/Mmc etc.

    I assumed you were making a tongue-in-cheek comment regarding clubs with jacked lofts in general and an interesting point regarding increasing bounce and reducing offset with a weakening of loft.

    The whole jacked up loft thing is an emotive topic for sure. Deservedly so, probably.

    Posted:
  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11578WRX Points: 2,263Posts: 11,578 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 10, 2019 #21

    On -, @WristySwing said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    On -, @WristySwing said:

    On -, @Hertsjoatmon said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    I see this argument a lot, I chose to get some SGI irons as I thought they would do the opposite. I don't trust my self to hit it dead centre every time and I thought the purpose of these designs were that your not punished as much on mishits than if you were using more traditional clubs.

    Am I getting jacked lofts / hot faces and club head design mixed up in this discussion?

    I chose the M CGB irons over all the other "distance" irons as I found they gave my much higher spin rates than the rest of the competition due to the tungsten inserts. I hit the other M series and the Rogues etc further but didn't feel I could stop them.

    In fact my entire main set up is based around clubs that wont punish me as badly for off centre strikes.

    It's because you are right. 2* difference in loft on a wedge, usually due to the massive spin rate compared to a 6 or 7 iron (upwards of 60% more), then forward travel diminishes. I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*. Lastly, many are arguing using passion vs. fact. I bet there's a vanishingly small minority that have actually gone and given these types of clubs a fair shake for a few rounds. There are enough threads here of those saying that made the switch from player's irons to GI and are loving the IMPROVED consistency, height, and find no sacrifice in turf interaction, feel, spin, etc.

    Thik about it for a second, why would an OEM purposelfully make a club that made a player worse? I think most 90s shooters wouldn't be that thrilled if they suddenly started shooting 100 because their ball was bounding over greens, flying wildly in each direction due to the low spin and would be a recipe for that OEM to never be considered by that person and their friends ever again. It just doesn't make good business sense...even if you can massage their ego and make them think they gained a full club in yardage (the haters words, not mine).

    How long is play length of todays drivers?, do they improve the number of fairway hits for the average Golfer? or his average distance? do the player avoid buying "this years model" who is "even longer than ever" of the same brand? Then why would that be different to Irons? Just look at TM...players experience cracking heads, but keep buying TM. IF the player see a reason to change and got the money, he will, and he blame himself for why the clubs he play dont work good, ...they was just bad fit for him, or his swing has changed....

    2* change of loft on the same club is average 4-6 yards depending on club speed, so we count it as 2 - 3 yards for each degree of loft. In your example, 2 wedges example 52 vs 56 should be 6 yards of difference to carry, while most experience 10-12 depending on their club speed, and thats why the typical loft progression is 4-5 degree on wedges.

    And yes, for me both Golf and Fitting is Passion, but that dont mean im blind for what im talking about, i know how golf club works, or why they dont, or how to modify and make them to work, thats what ive been helping other players with in here since i joined this forum 10 years ago,

    I said slower speed and more spin = less distance discrepancy on a wedge meaning less instances of extreme forward momentum due solely to loft. Been fitting for 20 years, never seen someone gain a significant amount of yardage with a 44* vs. a 46* PW. Read it again, please.

    you DID NOT say anything of what you type now, i quoted it, and now ive been reading it again, so please cut the crap. Here is what you posted, and what i replied to.

    The word significant makes no sense here, we measure distance in yards or meters and use a number to express it, not a opinion.

    There is a tread about a player who got to large gaps from his 48* to his 56* and the advice was to add a 52* GW.
    That means 4* on gaps, and his carry gaps now look like this, and ive added a row for change in carry if loft was 2* as difference, and we get a little more than 6 yards, your wrote " I'd be shocked if anyone got more than 3 yards on a 44* PW vs. a 46*"......., and you claim you have been a club fitter for 20 years? No wonder the reputation of club fitters is like it is, if this is representative for the average knowledge level.

    Posted:
    Post edited by Howard_Jones on

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11578WRX Points: 2,263Posts: 11,578 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Oct 10, 2019 #22

    On -, @golfinguru11 said:

    On -, @Z1ggy16 said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    Dont you ever get tired of this debate again and again_?

    Irons was never about distance but precision, so why use distance as argument?
    Hot face jacked loft irons has bad dispersion on distance, when you finally pure it, the ball goes way over and beyond your target, so a good strike punish the player in stead of rewarding him.
    The short end of the bag dont have room for all the "wedges" needed when a PW has become 43* and we cant carry more than 14 clubs total.

    PS im old with a slow swing speed, so im a short hitter and the target group for Jacked lofted clubs, but play classic heads with lofts average 2* weak to get gaps and stopping power like irons should have so i can use my irons for approach like they are meant for, NOT transport on the fairway, for that purpose i use Woods.

    Cut some slack Howard, these threads are generally always started by forum no0bz with a small number of posts, they simply do not know any better....

    I feel like you just didn’t read my original post. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure any of you did.

    If you mean BENDING, then DONT use the term "jacking", thats the term used for strong lofted irons to gain distance.
    Bending clubs either stronger or weaker for ball flight and carry gaps is NOT "Jacking loft", so you started out using the wrong term who is related to something else, thats why you got the replies you did

    Posted:

    PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME PMs ON CLUB TECH ISSUES - ASK PUBLIC IN THE FORUM.

    Unless you are a former Customer or someone i already have a PM dialog with, i want reply to tech questions on PMs.

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  • SuperbritSuperbrit Members  664WRX Points: 182Posts: 664 Golden Tee
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    On -, @golfinguru11 said:

    As a proponent of high bounce and low offset, I’m a big fan. Everyone else gets to brag about how far they hit their 7 iron and I get to bend my clubs weak, decreasing offset and increasing bounce. Win win, no?

    Generally speaking lower lofted irons start off with more offset anyway, so essentially your just altering them to more of a players club thats probably already in the OEM's range.

    Unless you get a strong lofted iron with already low offset, not tons of choice though

    Posted:

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    Ping Iblade 5-PW (1-2* weak loft) (S300's)
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  • PorscheFanPorscheFan Members  1344WRX Points: 204Handicap: 12Posts: 1,344 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    If you mean BENDING, then DONT use the term "jacking", thats the term used for strong lofted irons to gain distance.
    Bending clubs either stronger or weaker for ball flight and carry gaps is NOT "Jacking loft", so you started out using the wrong term who is related to something else, thats why you got the replies you did

    Howard, I think what he was trying to say was that he can take clubs with jacked lofts (what we generally understand by the term) and make them functional by weakening the lofts, and in the process adding bounce.

    I don’t think he mean to apply the term ‘jacking’ to bending per se.

    I think he was trying - in a sarcastic way - to say that clubs with jacked lofts aren’t functional, which is somewhat aligned with your point of view.

    At least that’s how I’m interpreting it.

    Posted:
  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11578WRX Points: 2,263Posts: 11,578 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #25

    On -, @PorscheFan said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    If you mean BENDING, then DONT use the term "jacking", thats the term used for strong lofted irons to gain distance.
    Bending clubs either stronger or weaker for ball flight and carry gaps is NOT "Jacking loft", so you started out using the wrong term who is related to something else, thats why you got the replies you did

    Howard, I think what he was trying to say was that he can take clubs with jacked lofts (what we generally understand by the term) and make them functional by weakening the lofts, and in the process adding bounce.

    I don’t think he mean to apply the term ‘jacking’ to bending per se.

    I think he was trying - in a sarcastic way - to say that clubs with jacked lofts aren’t functional, which is somewhat aligned with your point of view.

    At least that’s how I’m interpreting it.

    I understand what he means, but look at the header again..."Hate towards loft jacking"....but if he means against bending lofts to get ball flight or gapping right, there is no hate against it, so he is causing this misunderstandings himself by using a term thats established and means "silly strong lofted irons".

    Posted:

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  • playaplaya Members  8756WRX Points: 282Posts: 8,756 Titanium Tees
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    I think the hate exists because of the way they are marketed Yes the club with 7 stamped on it flies further than traditional 7 irons, but the extra yards are from length of shaft and jacked lofts, not the new tech OEMs would have you believe. I have no real issue with jacked lofts and 7 irons going a club further relative to previous generation irons, just don't **** on my back and tell me it's raining.

    Posted:
  • oiler45oiler45 Members  388WRX Points: 208Posts: 388 Greens
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    Howard et al - I am not trying to be a smart **** or a contrarian … but … help me out here with the dislike (hate is too strong a word) on the new iron lofting strategy. If my 7 old traditional irons (4-PW) are now replaced with my new set of 7 irons (5-GW) that cover the same distance and gapping - what is the difference? I know this question has been asked numerous times but I still haven't seen a valid response? If my new 5 iron has the same loft as my old 4 iron (and so on throughout the set) what is the difference? I still have 14 clubs overall - the same number of woods and irons as before. My new 8 goes the same distance as my old 7 - cause the lofts are the same - same as my new GW versus my old PW. What am I missing?
    Thanks

    Posted:
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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11578WRX Points: 2,263Posts: 11,578 Titanium Tees
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    scroll up to whats already written, its no reason to write it again

    Posted:

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  • KMeloneyKMeloney Members  5090WRX Points: 346Handicap:[email protected] 7Posts: 5,090 Titanium Tees
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    The emotional responses in these threads come from being told that the great experience you're having with your gel-filled, jacked-lofts irons isn't real, that your tight dispersion is crap, and that your approach shots that sit right down, don't.

    Posted:
  • jholzjholz Members  1953WRX Points: 631Handicap: 7.4Posts: 1,953 Platinum Tees
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    I think there is one real legitimate reason to dislike (hate is way to strong of a work for this context) jacked iron lofts. The fact that it tends to screw up the bottom end of the bag. A 43* PW leaves a huge hole to fill.

    Everyone says "just get the set gap wedge" but **** if I do that, I'm just playing a set with traditional lofts that have different numbers on the bottom. Recognizing that, I'm forced to question the whole practice.

    Posted:
    Cleveland Launcher HB 10.5* - Stock Miyazaki C. Kua 50 Stiff
    Callaway Diablo Octane Tour 13* - Aldila NV 75 Stiff
    or
    Callaway Diablo Edge Tour 15* - Accra Dymatch M5 75
    Mizuno F-50 18* - Stock Stiff
    or
    Callaway Diablo Edge Tour Hybrid 21* - Aldila NV 85 Stiff
    Callaway RAZR Tour Hybrid 24* - Stock XStiff
    5 - PW Cleveland CG7 Tour Black Pearl - DGSL S300
    Cleveland 588 RTX Rotex 2.0 50* DG Wedge
    Cleveland 588 RTX Rotex 2.0 54* DG Wedge
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  • agood3puttagood3putt Members  2228WRX Points: 1,104Posts: 2,228 Platinum Tees
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    I like my gel filled, "jacked" lofted irons.....keeps me at a 10 HC and I dont see myself playing a butter knife or a less forgiving head to get "traditional" lofts. Plus I like the bounce and sole of my irons, bending them weaker for the sake of it would only hurt my game.

    Posted:

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    Titleist TS2 21* HZRDUS Smoke Black 80

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