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Strange relations PW vs Driver

 Howard_Jones ·  
Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
Joined:  edited Oct 12, 2019 in WRX Club Techs #1

When i was at Mitchell Golf Equipment Institute, we often tried to measure the relations between the driver and the #6 iron since the #6 was common as "fitting club", and used the factor 80% for club speed, but the varieties to that is HUGE, but for some strange reason i cant explain, there seems to be a more constant relation on both Club speed, Ball speed and Carry from the PW to the Driver. i have gone over quite a few different Trackman reports, and notice that when we compare PW to Driver all this 3 factors seems to line up rather constantly with not much differences to this factors as all. PS! The PW used is 46* to 48* on loft, so if your PW is stronger, this numbers might be off. If we have a PW with loft like a players #9 iron, the factor for Carry drops to 1.85 from PW to Driver.

CLUB SPEED - PW x 1.35 = Driver Club speed
BALL SPEED - PW x 1.63 = Driver Ball speed
CARRY YRD - PW x 2.03 = Driver Carry as yards

How does this looks like for your bag?
Many dont know club speed or ball speed on their clubs, but average Carry should be known, and it seems like we can say PW carry x 2 = Driver Carry.

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Post edited by Howard_Jones on
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  • otwotw Doug Ferreri Members  350WRX Points: 114Posts: 350 Greens
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    If these conditions aren't met with driver what is the first thing to examine?

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @otw said:

    If these conditions aren't met with driver what is the first thing to examine?

    Where you make impact on the face if its the distance parameter (PW x 2)

    Simplified example
    PW distance 125 yards x 2 = 250 yards with the driver.
    If your Smash factor /Power transfer ratio is only 1.4 vs optimum 1.5 we loose 10 mph ball speed (if club speed is 100 with the driver) and for each mph ball speed, there is average 2 yards carry all else equal and then we will only get 230 yards carry

    230/125 = 1.84 as factor PW to Driver in that case

    To improve it, look into this DIY driver tune up.
    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

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  • skralyskraly ClubWRX  1696WRX Points: 197Posts: 1,696 ClubWRX
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    Not sure about club and ball speeds as I don't ready access to a launch monitor but the carry distance is right on. My standard PW on flat ground, no wind, at 80 deg. F. carries 120 yds. My driver under the same conditions carries 240.

    Posted:
  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @skraly said:

    Not sure about club and ball speeds as I don't ready access to a launch monitor but the carry distance is right on. My standard PW on flat ground, no wind, at 80 deg. F. carries 120 yds. My driver under the same conditions carries 240.

    Nice to hear that, this numbers is mostly from "better players" from my studio, but they also happens to fit very good with both PGA and LPGA average and that made me wonder why the PW to driver had such "tight numbers", when the same numbers for #6 iron to driver seems to be "all over the place". LPGA #6 to driver is 1.43 and PGA has a factor of 1.50 from #6 to driver.

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  • 5hort5tuff5hort5tuff Members  3497WRX Points: 212Posts: 3,497 Titanium Tees
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    My PW and Driver carry are pretty accurate based on your calculations!

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  • StetsonStetson Members  2691WRX Points: 174Posts: 2,691 Titanium Tees
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    I wish the carry distances were accurate for me on a regular basis. No question that Pw x 2 is about right at times but the driver is the killer of my golf game, I really struggle for consistency.

    Posted:
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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Stetson said:

    I wish the carry distances were accurate for me on a regular basis. No question that Pw x 2 is about right at times but the driver is the killer of my golf game, I really struggle for consistency.

    Quick fix
    Change letter 4 in your name from S to N, and use a 3W with Grafalloy Blue :smiley:

    ..Joke a side, read my DIY driver tune up, it has helped lots of player to improve the driver they have, you dont need any special tools to find what works better, so anyone can do it.
    https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

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  • cardoustiecardoustie haha, we don't play for 5's Tasmania to CanadaMembers  13922WRX Points: 2,740Handicap: 0.9 >< 3.8Posts: 13,922 Titanium Tees
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    I carry my wedge 140-143 ,,, loft 45

    My driver is 265, 275 if perfect launch conditions

    So no quite bang on

    Good info though HJ

    I bet the numbers for me would work at 47-48*

    Carry for 50* GW is 125 fwiw

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @cardoustie said:

    I carry my wedge 140-143 ,,, loft 45

    My driver is 265, 275 if perfect launch conditions

    So no quite bang on

    Good info though HJ

    I bet the numbers for me would work at 47-48*

    Carry for 50* GW is 125 fwiw

    Reverse it like this, average driver 270/2 = 135
    How much difference can we expect from 45 vs 47 of loft? about 5-6 yards = 140-141
    If we used the longest 275/2 = 137.5 + 5 to 6 yards for loft difference = 142.5 -143.5
    Close enough vs your numbers if you ask me....i just wish i could explain why it seems to be like that for so many, since i have no clue how your short iron game is vs your driver, but it does not seems to matter for some reason, they simply fall into this pattern. Thats why i wrote "Strange Relations", because i have absolutely no explanation for it.

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  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3917WRX Points: 873Handicap: 9Posts: 3,917 Titanium Tees
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    The ratio seems valid. I'm 130 +/-5 48/49depending day and 250-270 carry depending day. At least I'm at point where, all is off or all are on, lol.

    Posted:
  • DaveMacDaveMac Members  3211WRX Points: 203Handicap: 9Posts: 3,211 Titanium Tees
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    Howard, my swing speed is very much at the bottom end of any data curve but here is my Flightscope numbers not normalised.
    (Swing Speed, Ballspeed, Carry)
    PW 62.1 MPH, 71.0 MPH, 83.5 yards

    Driver 75.9 MPH, 111.2 MPH, 164.9 yards

    Calculated using your formula

    CLUB SPEED - 62.1x 1.35 = Driver Club speed 83.84 MPH
    BALL SPEED - 71 x 1.63 = Driver Ball speed 115.73 MPH
    CARRY YRD - 83.5 x 2.03 = Driver Carry as yards 169.5 Yards.

    Posted:
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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @DaveMac said:

    Howard, my swing speed is very much at the bottom end of any data curve but here is my Flightscope numbers not normalised.
    (Swing Speed, Ballspeed, Carry)
    PW 62.1 MPH, 71.0 MPH, 83.5 yards

    Driver 75.9 MPH, 111.2 MPH, 164.9 yards

    Calculated using your formula

    CLUB SPEED - 62.1x 1.35 = Driver Club speed 83.84 MPH
    BALL SPEED - 71 x 1.63 = Driver Ball speed 115.73 MPH
    CARRY YRD - 83.5 x 2.03 = Driver Carry as yards 169.5 Yards.

    They dont match, maybe its because your club speed is way lower than anyone in those numbers ive used. If i recall right, i dont think there was anyone with a driver below 85 as club speed.

    Your numbers become
    Club speed = 1.22 vs 1.35
    Ball speed = 1.57 vs 1.63
    Carry = 1.97 vs 2.03

    Carry is close, but still "off" with more than ive seen until now.

    Maybe you need a club fitting my friend :-)

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  • DaveMacDaveMac Members  3211WRX Points: 203Handicap: 9Posts: 3,211 Titanium Tees
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    Thanks Howard, I did say my numbers were unusually low.

    Posted:
    Post edited by DaveMac on
  • GMR2ironGMR2iron Members  1612WRX Points: 159Posts: 1,612 Platinum Tees
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    Howard, right on the nuts! PW is 130, driver is 260.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @GMR2iron said:

    Howard, right on the nuts! PW is 130, driver is 260.

    Nice to hear that, but i have to admit that i feel kind of stupid making a observation like this, and i have no clue about why it is like that, because everything should be possible to explain, but i cant explain this one. Im digging trough my large case of notes, so this was something i found by coincident back in 2012 when i was running all sorts of numbers, but i actually forgot about it all until i saw this papers again
    I had no explanation then and i still dont, and i never saw it mentioned by others either, so i though it would be interesting for others to know, since it seems to be kind of a "constant" or at least a very good rule of thumb.

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  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members  3716WRX Points: 1,731Handicap: 1.7Posts: 3,716 Titanium Tees
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    Yup, lines up with me pretty much perfectly as well. I carry my 48* PW right around 140-145 and my average Driver carry is normally around 285-295.

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  • gsrjcgsrjc TOC Members  1902WRX Points: 609Posts: 1,902 Platinum Tees
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    PW 46 and goes 125
    Driver 9.5 and goes 250

    Math seems right on for me

    Posted:
  • agolf1agolf1 Members  1974WRX Points: 1,133Posts: 1,974 Platinum Tees
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    I've also heard that driver carry should be around 2x your PW (traditional lofts) carry as a rough test to tell if your driver is reasonably well fit. Using my 49 degree GW as the reference point, my driver carry is a tad over 2x. However, if you add 5-6 yards of carry to get to a 47 degree club it lines up about perfect.

    Personally, I've always found it a bit "odd" how well this seems to line up for various people. I thought there would be more variation in how hard people are swinging with these two clubs along with changes in AOA/dynamic loft people deliver with a PW. But it seems to work...

    Posted:
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  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members  3716WRX Points: 1,731Handicap: 1.7Posts: 3,716 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @agolf1 said:

    I've also heard that driver carry should be around 2x your PW (traditional lofts) carry as a rough test to tell if your driver is reasonably well fit. Using my 49 degree GW as the reference point, my driver carry is a tad over 2x. However, if you add 5-6 yards of carry to get to a 47 degree club it lines up about perfect.

    Personally, I've always found it a bit "odd" how well this seems to line up for various people. I thought there would be more variation in how hard people are swinging with these two clubs along with changes in AOA/dynamic loft people deliver with a PW. But it seems to work...

    I think the loft and length of most PWs tends to put a bit of a "cap" on how much it can vary. I think people that deloft a PW enough to squeeze a meaningful amount of extra distance are going to trend towards being stronger players anyway and likely won't be wanting with the driver. I imagine it would be pretty rare to have a guy doing that with a wedge while also having the weaker, flippy type of driver ball flight necessary to create too much of a disparity in the 2:1 rule.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @agolf1 said:

    I've also heard that driver carry should be around 2x your PW (traditional lofts) carry as a rough test to tell if your driver is reasonably well fit. Using my 49 degree GW as the reference point, my driver carry is a tad over 2x. However, if you add 5-6 yards of carry to get to a 47 degree club it lines up about perfect.

    Personally, I've always found it a bit "odd" how well this seems to line up for various people. I thought there would be more variation in how hard people are swinging with these two clubs along with changes in AOA/dynamic loft people deliver with a PW. But it seems to work...

    I never saw this info anywhere, so if you have a source for it, it would be nice.
    And YES, my numbers was based on a PW from 46* to 48* loft with the average on 47*, but since drivers is anything from 7.5* to above 13* (largest volume 10* to 11*), and play length vary more on drivers than they do for the PW, i still have not found a reasonable explanation for it, and the answers in this tread also cover a wide range of both club speed and distance, but still, the factor "PW x 2 " seems valid.

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  • agolf1agolf1 Members  1974WRX Points: 1,133Posts: 1,974 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    On -, @agolf1 said:

    I've also heard that driver carry should be around 2x your PW (traditional lofts) carry as a rough test to tell if your driver is reasonably well fit. Using my 49 degree GW as the reference point, my driver carry is a tad over 2x. However, if you add 5-6 yards of carry to get to a 47 degree club it lines up about perfect.

    Personally, I've always found it a bit "odd" how well this seems to line up for various people. I thought there would be more variation in how hard people are swinging with these two clubs along with changes in AOA/dynamic loft people deliver with a PW. But it seems to work...

    I never saw this info anywhere, so if you have a source for it, it would be nice.
    And YES, my numbers was based on a PW from 46* to 48* loft with the average on 47*, but since drivers is anything from 7.5* to above 13* (largest volume 10* to 11*), and play length vary more on drivers than they do for the PW, i still have not found a reasonable explanation for it, and the answers in this tread also cover a wide range of both club speed and distance, but still, the factor "PW x 2 " seems valid.

    It only came up in some threads here, so unfortunately I don't have the deep details or the type of explanation / reasoning you are looking for. It may also be when we ask people "is it around 2x?" that people anchor their mind to those figures that "work" more than they should. I.e. if we asked for driver carry and adjusted wedge carry (closest loft adjusted by 2-3 yards per degree to 47 degrees) we would see more variation, but on average the 2x figure would still work as a crude sanity check. Still, I don't know why it seems to work better than a 6-iron for better players (your studio and tour figures) and supposedly many people here.

    Posted:
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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @agolf1 said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    On -, @agolf1 said:

    I've also heard that driver carry should be around 2x your PW (traditional lofts) carry as a rough test to tell if your driver is reasonably well fit. Using my 49 degree GW as the reference point, my driver carry is a tad over 2x. However, if you add 5-6 yards of carry to get to a 47 degree club it lines up about perfect.

    Personally, I've always found it a bit "odd" how well this seems to line up for various people. I thought there would be more variation in how hard people are swinging with these two clubs along with changes in AOA/dynamic loft people deliver with a PW. But it seems to work...

    I never saw this info anywhere, so if you have a source for it, it would be nice.
    And YES, my numbers was based on a PW from 46* to 48* loft with the average on 47*, but since drivers is anything from 7.5* to above 13* (largest volume 10* to 11*), and play length vary more on drivers than they do for the PW, i still have not found a reasonable explanation for it, and the answers in this tread also cover a wide range of both club speed and distance, but still, the factor "PW x 2 " seems valid.

    It only came up in some threads here, so unfortunately I don't have the deep details or the type of explanation / reasoning you are looking for. It may also be when we ask people "is it around 2x?" that people anchor their mind to those figures that "work" more than they should. I.e. if we asked for driver carry and adjusted wedge carry (closest loft adjusted by 2-3 yards per degree to 47 degrees) we would see more variation, but on average the 2x figure would still work as a crude sanity check. Still, I don't know why it seems to work better than a 6-iron for better players (your studio and tour figures) and supposedly many people here.

    ive done some search for it, but dont find anything. What i find is driver total but not as a direct compare to PW, just long lists with total for all clubs.
    i have downloadet most public info Trackman have released, nothing there either, so for me this seems to be overlooked and i find that strange since this is a "better" and a more correct rule of thumb than most other rule of thumbs who is related to Golf.

    Examples
    2 grams is 1 SWP, but for the clubs we play it vary from 1.6 to about 2.35 grams, so that rule mislead more than it helps
    Club speed x 2.5 = potential carry as yards, or total as meters, but we might see up to 2.6 in extreme cases.

    So, im still surprised this rule of thumb is kept a "secret", you are the first who seems to be aware of this relation ship.

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  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members  3716WRX Points: 1,731Handicap: 1.7Posts: 3,716 Titanium Tees
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    The relationship I do remember being talked about was much looser. It was "If you can hit your 9-iron 150y then you should be hitting your driver 300". No mention of loft, but if we are assuming more traditional lofts then that 9-iron becomes today's PW.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Valtiel said:

    The relationship I do remember being talked about was much looser. It was "If you can hit your 9-iron 150y then you should be hitting your driver 300". No mention of loft, but if we are assuming more traditional lofts then that 9-iron becomes today's PW.

    You are in bad standing for a few seconds for not telling LOL...i never heard about this before, but one of the others in this tread gave me a link to a tread in here where it seems like you knew about this, but again, it was NOT known for Mitchell G.E.I, and its not mentioned in any of my books, and i cant find it at Trackman or any other place, and that made me wonder....how could such a "constant" relationship exist, but not be noticed?..strange, but may be the "loft syndrome" is the reason its forgotten, lofts on clubs of today is no longer what they used to be, but not even in my books from the 60s (Grieg - how golf clubs really works) mention this, and that books has tons of charts and math examples for almost any club spec that exist. Todays clubs is actually designed by his ideas, but back then they did not have tools to make Titanium heads, and carbon fiber shafts was "science fiction", so its in our days his theories is put to life. Shakespeare made the first carbonfiber shaft in 1972, and Griegs book is written about 1967 or like 5 years before.

    Posted:

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  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members  3716WRX Points: 1,731Handicap: 1.7Posts: 3,716 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    On -, @Valtiel said:

    The relationship I do remember being talked about was much looser. It was "If you can hit your 9-iron 150y then you should be hitting your driver 300". No mention of loft, but if we are assuming more traditional lofts then that 9-iron becomes today's PW.

    You are in bad standing for a few seconds for not telling LOL...i never heard about this before, but one of the others in this tread gave me a link to a tread in here where it seems like you knew about this, but again, it was NOT known for Mitchell G.E.I, and its not mentioned in any of my books, and i cant find it at Trackman or any other place, and that made me wonder....how could such a "constant" relationship exist, but not be noticed?..strange, but may be the "loft syndrome" is the reason its forgotten, lofts on clubs of today is no longer what they used to be, but not even in my books from the 60s (Grieg - how golf clubs really works) mention this, and that books has tons of charts and math examples for almost any club spec that exist. Todays clubs is actually designed by his ideas, but back then they did not have tools to make Titanium heads, and carbon fiber shafts was "science fiction", so its in our days his theories is put to life. Shakespeare made the first carbonfiber shaft in 1972, and Griegs book is written about 1967 or like 5 years before.

    Haha! I'm sure you can forgive me for feeling like I didn't know something that you did not, lol. I remember it as an offhanded anecdote that seemed to make sense for me, but assumed that there must not be THAT strong of a correlation. Its interesting to see that there is much more of one and that it has been relatively unexplored!

    Posted:
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    Titleist 915FD 15* Kuro Kage 80XTS || Taylormade RSI UDI 16* Fujikura Motore Speeder HB 9.8 Tour-Spec X
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  • b.mattayb.mattay New WRX'er Members  675WRX Points: 152Handicap: +2Posts: 675 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Oct 14, 2019 #27

    I am definitely a little off when it comes to this. Trackman puts my average PW at 135 carry and average Driver at about 295 carry (118 SS). Would be about right for 3W=2x PW carry for me.

    Posted:
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    Gorge Tour (51SS, 56SS, 60TS, X100, Z-Cord, +1 Wrap, Black Dot)

    White Hot Rossie (34.5 inches, Garsen Ultimate) 

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @b.mattay said:

    I am definitely a little off when it comes to this. Trackman puts my average PW at 135 carry and average Driver at about 295 carry (118 SS). Would be about right for 3W=2x PW carry for me.

    No rules without exception, and you seems to hit your driver way to long, and should change it :-))))
    ...or more correct, you might be hitting your PW a bit short...but again, no rules without exception, but your numbers is quite a bit off vs the expected here.

    If we use "potential carry" and club speed x 2.5 = carry as yards, yours is spot on, and about as good as can be, while most players has a bit more to get from the driver they play, while you seems to be maxed out on that club, and maybe a little short on your PW, so i think thats why this formula is wrong in your case.

    Posted:

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  • mattavery727mattavery727 Members  312WRX Points: 94Handicap: 10Posts: 312 Greens
    Joined:  #29

    Wow this is spot on. I carry my pitching wedge 46 degrees between 140/145 and in my last fitting on optimal strikes I carried my driver 280-290. That is crazy. Same with my dad with normal swing speed 120 pitching wedge and 240 carry for his driver.

    Posted:

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  • jah7838jah7838 Members  1321WRX Points: 228Posts: 1,321 Platinum Tees
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    I don't know how I missed this back in October, but this is pretty cool. My PW (45*) carry is a comfortable 120-125 yards in the summer, and my carry with my driver is 240-250 yards on good strikes.

    Posted:
    WITB
    Driver: 9.5* M3 Aldila Tour Green 65s or Evenflow White t1100 65s 
    Fairway: Cobra F9 Tour 3 wood set to 15* with Aldila 2kxv Blue 7s or Cobra F6 Baffler set to 16.5* with Proforce V2 7f4
    Hybrids: 19* Adams XTD Super Hybrid VTS 100s or 20* Adams Super Pro with AD DI 95s , 23* Adams Super 9031 S300 (swap with 4 iron on occasion, but the hybrid is usually in the bag)
    Irons: 4 (DG Pro s300), 5-PW Ben Hoga PTx Pro DGTI S400
    Wedges: 48* bent to 49* Hogan TK wedge, RTX 4 52* bent to 53* Mid, and New Level Golf 58*. All wedges have DGTI S400
    Putter: Toulon Las Vegas or Kingston KP1 Carbon Oil Can Finish
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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11325WRX Points: 2,097Posts: 11,325 Titanium Tees
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    Yes its pretty cool, and about the only "rule of thumb" thats worth something in Golf tech. All the others i know about has way larger variables from "high to low", while this one seems to be very constant and seems valid for both low and high club speed, so its a good one to know about. If the numbers dont match, i think we should look into them and figure out why, and when they match we cant expect any revolutions to distance from a new driver as another example for practical use.

    Posted:

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    Unless you are a former Customer or someone i already have a PM dialog with, i want reply to tech questions on PMs.

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