Time to Make Disqualification Claim

Hi All,

My dad and I are involved in a yearlong competition at our local golf club. We lost in the semi-finals to a team that called my dad for two b.s. penalty calls. So two holes that we won were actually lost. So the match was on Sunday, today, Monday, I found that one of their team members player to an incorrectly high handicap. He played off 3 when he should have been playing off 2. If the finals have not been played, can I make a claim that his score is invalid?

I’ve never made a claim before but this one guy on the other team was a reaaalll jerk. Thanks for the help.

You might start with Rule 20.1.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

> @"sui generis" said:

> You might start with Rule 20.1.

>

> https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

Thanks for a point in the right direction, it actually looks like 20.2 is closer to the point, but doesn’t address an incorrect handicap. Much appreciated, I’ll keep an eye out.

What were the two BS calls during the match?

_c

Applying Handicaps in Handicap Match

(1) Declaring Handicaps. The player and opponent should tell each other their handicaps before the match.

If a player declares a wrong handicap either before or during the match and does not correct the mistake before the opponent makes his or her next stroke:

**Declared Handicap Too High. The player is disqualified if this affects the number of strokes the player gives or gets**. If it does not, there is no penalty.

Declared Handicap Too Low. There is no penalty and the player must play off the declared lower handicap._

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

> @Mudguard said:

> What were the two BS calls during the match?

>

> _c

> Applying Handicaps in Handicap Match

> (1) Declaring Handicaps. The player and opponent should tell each other their handicaps before the match.

>

> If a player declares a wrong handicap either before or during the match and does not correct the mistake before the opponent makes his or her next stroke:

>

> **Declared Handicap Too High. The player is disqualified if this affects the number of strokes the player gives or gets**. If it does not, there is no penalty.

> Declared Handicap Too Low. There is no penalty and the player must play off the declared lower handicap._

Right, let's assume DQ is the result. OP's question is regarding timing. When is the match declared final and when can he still make a claim?

I assume the BS calls were legitimate rules infractions but were minor in nature and typically not called in casual matches in the OP's experience. Or maybe something like playing out of turn and forced to replay the shot. And now the OP is getting out his rulebook to try and beat Mr. Rules Stickler and give him a taste of his own medicine.

You're out of luck assuming the result of the match is final. Figuring out how many strokes you give or take (and on which holes) should be done before the match starts and each player is responsible for knowing the allocation.

> 3.2a(5): When Result is Final.

> The result of a match becomes final in the way stated by the Committee (which should be set out in the Terms of the Competition), such as:

>

> * When the result is recorded on an official scoreboard or other identified place, or

> * When the result is reported to a person identified by the Committee.

>

>

> 20.1b(3): Ruling Request Made After Result of Match Is Final.

>

> When a player makes a request for a ruling after the result of the match is final:

>

> The Committee will give the player a ruling only if both of these apply:

> * The request is based on facts the player was not aware of before the result of the match was final, and

> * The opponent breached Rule 3.2d(1) (giving wrong number of strokes taken) or Rule 3.2d(2) (failing to tell the player about a penalty) and knew of the breach before the result of the match was final.

> There is no time limit on giving such a ruling.

>

> 20.2e: Disqualifying Players After Result of Match or Competition Is Final

> (1) Match Play. There is no time limit on disqualifying a player under Rule 1.2 (serious misconduct) or Rule1.3b(1) (deliberately ignoring a known breach or penalty, or agreeing with another player to ignore any Rule or penalty they know applies).

Hi guys, I’ve type in the precise scenario twice and it didn’t post. Yes, Mr. Rules Stickler scenario. This occurred on b to back holes. Hole eight, opponent suspiciously conceded a putt to me even though I was out of the hole. My dad, who had two putts for the win, from 20 feet, picked up his mark. Opponent proceeds to tell dad that he’s out of the hole and that they won.

Very next hole, dad Fixes his own pitch mark on the fringe, a yard in front of him and to the left of his line. He chips the ball well over the pitch mark. Makes up and down to win the hole. Penalty called, club pro rules in opponents favor. Now we lose hole.

Btw guys, I know this is quite petty, but it really pisses me off to feel cheated. Yes, ideally I would know the rules and check handicaps and all before the match, but sorry, I really feel cheated.

> @Mookieb10 said:

> Btw guys, I know this is quite petty, but it really pisses me off to feel cheated. Yes, ideally I would know the rules and check handicaps and all before the match, but sorry, I really feel cheated.

IMO you should adjust what you feel are "picky" rules violations. There is no such thing as a "suspicious" concession. Your dad picking up after you were conceded a putt for a higher score was a bone-headed move -- though the opponent incorrectly presumed his having done so was a loss of hole penalty. Your dad should have put the ball back down where he estimated it to be, taken a 1sp, and tried to sink the putt for a tie.

And you dad should have known that he can't improve his line of play off the green near his ball, though I'll acknowledge that this situation does border on "picky" in that it's subjective as to how far in front of the ball the fixed ball mark would have to be to judge it a penalty.

Maybe consider being angry with your dad.

> @Mookieb10 said:

> Hi guys, I’ve type in the precise scenario twice and it didn’t post. Yes, Mr. Rules Stickler scenario. This occurred on b to back holes. Hole eight, opponent suspiciously conceded a putt to me even though I was out of the hole. My dad, who had two putts for the win, from 20 feet, picked up his mark. Opponent proceeds to tell dad that he’s out of the hole and that they won.

> Very next hole, dad Fixes his own pitch mark on the fringe, a yard in front of him and to the left of his line. He chips the ball well over the pitch mark. Makes up and down to win the hole. Penalty called, club pro rules in opponents favor. Now we lose hole.

Why did your dad pick up his marker after the opponent conceded your putt? Was there a possibility of confusion over whose putt the opponent conceded? If yes, then the ball could've been replaced without a penalty and otherwise it would've been a one-stroke penalty, not a loss-of-hole penalty. But it's the players' responsibility to know the rules and, ultimately, the blame falls on you for not knowing the rules. Either your opponent didn't know the rule either or took advantage of you not knowing them.

As for the second point, you said he chipped the ball over the fixed pitch mark. Thus the pitch mark was definitely on his line of play, which you're not allowed to improve. Even if it had been well away from the line of play, it would be recommendable to fix it after you've made your stroke to avoid any appearance of evil. Your opponent had every right to call your dad on it. Some might not call it but, again, the blame lies solely on the player who broke the rules.

Right, I feel like during discussions, especially on the internet, we all forget that two or more things can be true at the same time.

1) If our team doesn’t know the rules, we assume the responsibility of getting jobbed over for not knowing them. If I knew the rules better, we would not have been screwed.

2) the opponent(s) can be absolute a-holes.

> @Halebopp said:

> > @Mookieb10 said:

> > Hi guys, I’ve type in the precise scenario twice and it didn’t post. Yes, Mr. Rules Stickler scenario. This occurred on b to back holes. Hole eight, opponent suspiciously conceded a putt to me even though I was out of the hole. My dad, who had two putts for the win, from 20 feet, picked up his mark. Opponent proceeds to tell dad that he’s out of the hole and that they won.

> > Very next hole, dad Fixes his own pitch mark on the fringe, a yard in front of him and to the left of his line. He chips the ball well over the pitch mark. Makes up and down to win the hole. Penalty called, club pro rules in opponents favor. Now we lose hole.

>

> Why did your dad pick up his marker after the opponent conceded your putt? Was there a possibility of confusion over whose putt the opponent conceded? If yes, then the ball could've been replaced without a penalty and otherwise it would've been a one-stroke penalty, not a loss-of-hole penalty. But it's the players' responsibility to know the rules and, ultimately, the blame falls on you for not knowing the rules. Either your opponent didn't know the rule either or took advantage of you not knowing them.

>

> As for the second point, you said he chipped the ball over the fixed pitch mark. Thus the pitch mark was definitely on his line of play, which you're not allowed to improve. Even if it had been well away from the line of play, it would be recommendable to fix it after you've made your stroke to avoid any appearance of evil. Your opponent had every right to call your dad on it. Some might not call it but, again, the blame lies solely on the player who broke the rules.

>

>

First, yes, dad thought the opponent conceded his putt.

Second, I looked up rule 8.1 interpretations, you can make improvements to your line if it is unlikely to give you an advantage. Ie, smoothing out footprints on your line, in a long fairway bunker.

Now this is only one side of the story, the only purpose is to show that YOU CAN improve your line without being penalized.

8.1a/2 – Examples of Actions Unlikely to Create Potential Advantage

Examples of actions that are unlikely to improve conditions affecting the stroke (that is, unlikely to give a player a potential advantage) include when:

Before making a 150-yard approach shot from the general area, a player repairs a small pitch-mark, smooths a footprint in a bunker or replaces a divot in a divot hole on his or her line of play several yards in front of the ball.

A player’s ball lies in the middle of a long, shallow-faced fairway bunker, and the player smooths footprints several yards in front of the ball and on his or her line of play before playing a long shot over the smoothed area (see Rule 12.2b(2) – When Touching Sand Does Not Result in Penalty).

Those are different situations than on the fringe. If you're going to hit a flip from the fringe, fixing the mark wouldn't be an issue. But a putt or bump n run can be benefitted by fixing the mark.

In case you do elect for the flip, you still shouldn't fix it just to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

> @Mookieb10 said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @Mookieb10 said:

> > > Hi guys, I’ve type in the precise scenario twice and it didn’t post. Yes, Mr. Rules Stickler scenario. This occurred on b to back holes. Hole eight, opponent suspiciously conceded a putt to me even though I was out of the hole. My dad, who had two putts for the win, from 20 feet, picked up his mark. Opponent proceeds to tell dad that he’s out of the hole and that they won.

> > > Very next hole, dad Fixes his own pitch mark on the fringe, a yard in front of him and to the left of his line. He chips the ball well over the pitch mark. Makes up and down to win the hole. Penalty called, club pro rules in opponents favor. Now we lose hole.

> >

> > Why did your dad pick up his marker after the opponent conceded your putt? Was there a possibility of confusion over whose putt the opponent conceded? If yes, then the ball could've been replaced without a penalty and otherwise it would've been a one-stroke penalty, not a loss-of-hole penalty. But it's the players' responsibility to know the rules and, ultimately, the blame falls on you for not knowing the rules. Either your opponent didn't know the rule either or took advantage of you not knowing them.

> >

> > As for the second point, you said he chipped the ball over the fixed pitch mark. Thus the pitch mark was definitely on his line of play, which you're not allowed to improve. Even if it had been well away from the line of play, it would be recommendable to fix it after you've made your stroke to avoid any appearance of evil. Your opponent had every right to call your dad on it. Some might not call it but, again, the blame lies solely on the player who broke the rules.

> >

> >

>

> First, yes, dad thought the opponent conceded his putt.

> Second, I looked up rule 8.1 interpretations, you can make improvements to your line if it is unlikely to give you an advantage. Ie, smoothing out footprints on your line, in a long fairway bunker.

[interpretations 8.1a/1 and 2](https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/interpretations/rule-8-interpretations "Interpretations 8.1a/1 and 2") should give you a good idea of what's allowed and what isn't.

> @chippa13 said:

> Sounds like sour grapes to me.

???? Enforcing the rules is sour grapes?

In this situation, absolutely.

The calls were back to back holes and it just so happened we were playing the best golf of our lives. Up 3 through 7.

#8) My dad is getting one stroke, no other strokes in play. opponents are both in with 4. I miss a 35 footer for 4 and I walk up, they say “that’s good”. My dad, laying 2 for 1, from 20 feet, picks up his ball, as he thought they were giving him the putt as I was already out of the hole. Opponent says, “no, I meant him, not you, you’re out of the hole, we win the hole.” And walks away. Stupid us, not knowing the rule, believe him and walk away.

#9) dad’s ball hits the fringe, creating a pitch mark, and rolls back into rough. 15 yards, slightly uphill to the pin. He takes out a wedge, and while waiting for me to play from the bunker, fixes his pitch mark, which admitted is near his line, but it’s one and a half yards away and to the left of where he is aiming. He proceeds to chip well past the pitch mark, opponents ask for a ruling, pro sides with them.

One of the opponents was a great guy, ashamed on his partner, but the other guy is an unbearable turd.

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> In case you do elect for the flip, you still shouldn't fix it just to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

This is certainly the gold standard course of action.

I’m satisfied that the rulin> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Mookieb10 said:

> > Btw guys, I know this is quite petty, but it really pisses me off to feel cheated. Yes, ideally I would know the rules and check handicaps and all before the match, but sorry, I really feel cheated.

>

> IMO you should adjust what you feel are "picky" rules violations. There is no such thing as a "suspicious" concession. Your dad picking up after you were conceded a putt for a higher score was a bone-headed move -- though the opponent incorrectly presumed his having done so was a loss of hole penalty. Your dad should have put the ball back down where he estimated it to be, taken a 1sp, and tried to sink the putt for a tie.

>

> And you dad should have known that he can't improve his line of play off the green near his ball, though I'll acknowledge that this situation does border on "picky" in that it's subjective as to how far in front of the ball the fixed ball mark would have to be to judge it a penalty.

>

> Maybe consider being angry with your dad.

For sure I need to know the rules and intend to learn them better. Anger will get me nowhere.

Mookieb10, full disclosure: right or wrong, I would have had the same attitude as you. Sounds like your opponent was looking for ways to win outside of his own golf abilities.

Yes, we should all know the rules, and abide by them, but I would like to think that I'd never call the pitch mark fix rule on a guy who's chipping over and to the side of said pitch mark. That's just a d**k move.

Also, if your dad misunderstood my "pick it up" comment directed at you, I'd like to think I would just have him replace the ball and play on.

WE MUST NOT LOSE SIGHT OF THE SPIRIT OF THE RULES AND GAME.

Ok, as most have done here, I will start with the B.S. rules situations. I play in a lot of match play competitions. You hit the nail on the head when you said you "need to know the rules". Yes, you do and so does your Dad. And, as far as the other guys being "jerks"...they knew the rules. That does not make them jerks. If you are pulled over for speeding because you did not see the speed limit sign and the cop writes you a ticket...that does not make him a jerk. Pretty clear that y'all violated 1 rule and possibly 2. On the fixing the pitch mark...in a competition...leave it be until after the shot has been played and then fix it...no matter whether it is on the line of play or just remotely close to it...just leave it be.

Now, about their handicap issue. You said this was a club event. What is the involvement of the "club" and the pro there in each match before it starts? And, you said he played to a 3 instead of a 2. Would that one stroke have generated a tie or a win for you guys or would you still have lost? Or, are you just hoping to get him DQ'd.

Sounds like you guys need to learn a few things about competitions....(1) verify all handicaps before starting the round and (2) understand the rules for the type of competition you are involved in.

> @RickK said:

> Ok, as most have done here, I will start with the B.S. rules situations. I play in a lot of match play competitions. You hit the nail on the head when you said you "need to know the rules". Yes, you do and so does your Dad. And, as far as the other guys being "jerks"...they knew the rules. That does not make them jerks. If you are pulled over for speeding because you did not see the speed limit sign and the cop writes you a ticket...that does not make him a jerk. Pretty clear that y'all violated 1 rule and possibly 2. On the fixing the pitch mark...in a competition...leave it be until after the shot has been played and then fix it...no matter whether it is on the line of play or just remotely close to it...just leave it be.

> Now, about their handicap issue. You said this was a club event. What is the involvement of the "club" and the pro there in each match before it starts? And, you said he played to a 3 instead of a 2. Would that one stroke have generated a tie or a win for you guys or would you still have lost? Or, are you just hoping to get him DQ'd.

> Sounds like you guys need to learn a few things about competitions....(1) verify all handicaps before starting the round and (2) understand the rules for the type of competition you are involved in.

They didn't know the rules. Or if they did they flat out lied about how they should be applied. OP's Dad should likely have put the ball back under no penalty, but their oppo claimed they were out of the hole.

They also lied about their handicaps. The rules quite clearly state that if you claim a higher handicap than you should have had, then you get disqualified unless it had no impact on the number of strokes received or you fix it before your opponent plays their next stroke. That clearly didn't happen. It may have had no impact on the number of strokes if it was less than full allowance, but it's fairly unlikely given two people getting strokes.

I would 100% complain to the pro in the OP's situation. The other side made themselves sticklers for the rules by claiming the penalty for repairing the pitchmark. Let them get hoist on their own petard.

> @Ty_Webb said:

> > @RickK said:

> > Ok, as most have done here, I will start with the B.S. rules situations. I play in a lot of match play competitions. You hit the nail on the head when you said you "need to know the rules". Yes, you do and so does your Dad. And, as far as the other guys being "jerks"...they knew the rules. That does not make them jerks. If you are pulled over for speeding because you did not see the speed limit sign and the cop writes you a ticket...that does not make him a jerk. Pretty clear that y'all violated 1 rule and possibly 2. On the fixing the pitch mark...in a competition...leave it be until after the shot has been played and then fix it...no matter whether it is on the line of play or just remotely close to it...just leave it be.

> > Now, about their handicap issue. You said this was a club event. What is the involvement of the "club" and the pro there in each match before it starts? And, you said he played to a 3 instead of a 2. Would that one stroke have generated a tie or a win for you guys or would you still have lost? Or, are you just hoping to get him DQ'd.

> > Sounds like you guys need to learn a few things about competitions....(1) verify all handicaps before starting the round and (2) understand the rules for the type of competition you are involved in.

>

> They didn't know the rules. Or if they did they flat out lied about how they should be applied. OP's Dad should likely have put the ball back under no penalty, but their oppo claimed they were out of the hole.

>

> They also lied about their handicaps. The rules quite clearly state that if you claim a higher handicap than you should have had, then you get disqualified unless it had no impact on the number of strokes received or you fix it before your opponent plays their next stroke. That clearly didn't happen. It may have had no impact on the number of strokes if it was less than full allowance, but it's fairly unlikely given two people getting strokes.

>

> I would 100% complain to the pro in the OP's situation. The other side made themselves sticklers for the rules by claiming the penalty for repairing the pitchmark. Let them get hoist on their own petard.

Don't disagree. But, when someone is calling a rules situation on you, you need to have an idea if what they are saying is right or wrong. And, what you should do once they have told you that you have violated a rule. OP's Dad and OP did not question or raise opposition to the claim they had lost the hole. I have played in a number of competitions where someone has claimed I have violated a rule. I am quick to ask them to point out the rule I violated in the book...oh yes, I just happen to have one in my bag and the app on my phone. I have played with my share of rules nazis in my life and once you come off as one...watch out...I will be watching your every move.

I am not a big fan of these match play competitions that go on for weeks/months. I have found that the club and or club pro seem to just "let them happen" and do not really get involved. You go out and play and just report back who wins. However, the OP did say that the pro was involved and ruled in their opponents favor for the penalty for fixing the pitch mark. So, at least some involvement there. He has nothing to lose by questioning the number of strokes situation.

if you are sure he was a 2 and not a 3 at the time of the match, go talk with the pro

both moves were d-bag moves by the other team, I'd never do that. I've in fact let a guy put his marker back down when he picked it up thinking he didn't have a popper

And I have played with a lot of clowns like the team you played against .. dying to drop potential rules infractions on the other team. The worst is often these guys barely know the rules themselves

I wonder if the 2 vs 3 "handicap" is more a factor of that player's index versus what his handicap was calculated for the tees they were playing.

> @Mookieb10 said:

> The calls were back to back holes and it just so happened we were playing the best golf of our lives. Up 3 through 7.

>

> #8) My dad is getting one stroke, no other strokes in play. opponents are both in with 4. I miss a 35 footer for 4 and I walk up, they say “that’s good”. My dad, laying 2 for 1, from 20 feet, picks up his ball, as he thought they were giving him the putt as I was already out of the hole. Opponent says, “no, I meant him, not you, you’re out of the hole, we win the hole.” And walks away. Stupid us, not knowing the rule, believe him and walk away.

>

> #9) dad’s ball hits the fringe, creating a pitch mark, and rolls back into rough. 15 yards, slightly uphill to the pin. He takes out a wedge, and while waiting for me to play from the bunker, fixes his pitch mark, which admitted is near his line, but it’s one and a half yards away and to the left of where he is aiming. He proceeds to chip well past the pitch mark, opponents ask for a ruling, pro sides with them.

>

> One of the opponents was a great guy, ashamed on his partner, but the other guy is an unbearable ****.

The player conceding your putt when you could not beat or tie them is standard procedure. Nothing suspicious about it in my book.

On #8 in the moment your father should have replaced the marker and played out the hole. You can always figure out the total after the match is done in the rpesence of the Pro. I believe your father would have taken a 1-stroke penalty under 9.7.

##9.7 Ball-Marker Lifted or Moved

###a. Ball or Ball-Marker Must Be Replaced

If your ball-marker is lifted or moved in any way (including by natural forces) before your ball is replaced, you must either:

- Replace your ball on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated), or

- Place a ball-marker to mark that original spot.

###b. Penalty for Lifting Ball-Marker or Causing It to Move

Before your ball is replaced , if you lift your ball-marker or cause it to move, you get **one penalty stroke.**

.

.

Fixing the pitchmark is ******* call if it was not in his intended line.

> @Mookieb10 said:

> The calls were back to back holes and it just so happened we were playing the best golf of our lives. Up 3 through 7.

>

> #8) My dad is getting one stroke, no other strokes in play. opponents are both in with 4. I miss a 35 footer for 4 and I walk up, they say “that’s good”. My dad, laying 2 for 1, from 20 feet, picks up his ball, as he thought they were giving him the putt as I was already out of the hole. Opponent says, “no, I meant him, not you, you’re out of the hole, we win the hole.” And walks away. Stupid us, not knowing the rule, believe him and walk away.

> ****.

If I understand you correctly, you dad is saying that he thought he was being conceded a 20 foot putt for the win of a hole. When a three putt from 20 feet would have resulted in a tie. Not completely logical IMO.

I’d let it rest.