Alignment aids, stand alone putters, and Lee Ann Walker Rule 10.2b

10.2b says your caddie can't stand behind you to line you up, except for on the putting green. And when on the putting green, you must back away when your caddie does it, and start again without the caddie lining you up.

The commentary for the rule is that you can't set an object down to help you take a stance (10.2b.3). However, that being said, how can it not be a penalty to have one of those stand alone putters that you walk behind and use to line up your putt, then address and putt on that line? Seems like an alignment aid to me.

Since you are permitted to ground your putter behind the ball, you are likewise permitted to ground it and walk away leaving it standing. You are simply not allowed to lie it down to indicate the line.

So are lines on the ball.

I think it is the assistance in aligning that is being targeted. As long as you line up the ball or the stand alone putter you are fine.

Which brings the question, what if you ask your caddy to check if the alignment of the stand alone putter or the line on the ball is ok.

We have caddies over here that line up the "ball line" for their players.

> @xxio said:

> So are lines on the ball.

>

> I think it is the assistance in aligning that is being targeted. As long as you line up the ball or the stand alone putter you are fine.

>

> Which brings the question, what if you ask your caddy to check if the alignment of the stand alone putter or the line on the ball is ok.

>

> We have caddies over here that line up the "ball line" for their players.

That seems to be allowed as long as after the caddie does, the player must step away and reset.

Im talking about the caddy being the one to line up (hold the ball) the line on the ball to the target line. The player is not in stance yet.

Should that eventually be considered in assisting in alignment as well?

> @xxio said:

> Im talking about the caddy being the one to line up (hold the ball) the line on the ball to the target line. The player is not in stance yet.

>

This is permitted provided the caddie is the one that marked the ball first (10.3b(1). The caddie may not put the ball back (ie replace) if it was not the caddie that lifted it. There is nothing that prevents the caddie being the one to line up the lines on the ball with the line of play.

> @lanzador49 said:

> 10.2b says your caddie can't stand behind you to line you up, except for on the putting green. And when on the putting green, you must back away when your caddie does it, and start again without the caddie lining you up.

>

> The commentary for the rule is that you can't set an object down to help you take a stance (10.2b.3). However, that being said, how can it not be a penalty to have one of those stand alone putters that you walk behind and use to line up your putt, then address and putt on that line? Seems like an alignment aid to me.

10.2b(4) which requires your caddie (or partner) to move away from behind you before you take your stance to make a stroke applies everywhere on the course.

The limitations on what can be done on the putting green include

a)while anyone can point out your line of play by standing on or near it when your ball is off the putting green, only you, your caddie or your partner can point out your line of play when your ball is on the putting green;

b) you can set down an object to indicate your line of play when your ball is off the putting green provided it is removed before the stroke, but not when your ball is on the green.

Regarding self standing putters, the rule is clear:

_The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play._

That to me says that if you put a putter down on the green and let go of it, it has been "set down" and if that is done in order to show your line of play, you are in breach of the rule whether it is lying on the ground or standing up. It is an object; it has been set down in order to show your line of play. I see no problem with the common practice of squatting down and holding your putter on the ground in front of you and using it to read the green. The putter has not been "set down"

> @"Colin L" said:

> That to me says that if you put a putter down on the green and let go of it, it has been "set down" and if that is done in order to show your line of play, you are in breach of the rule whether it is lying on the ground or standing up. It is an object; it has been set down in order to show your line of play. I see no problem with the common practice of squatting down and holding your putter on the ground in front of you and using it to read the green. The putter has not been "set down"

I think there is still some debate on whether simply releasing your grip on a stand up putter is setting down or whether it only applies when releasing your grip and the club laid down with the shaft on the ground.

However, the R&A has issued advice to manufactures re Alignment Devices and Ball Markers and the advice would suggest that their use in such a way would be a breach. But they have not yet (so far as I know) made a specific ruling on stand up putters.

> @"Colin L" said:

> > @lanzador49 said:

> > 10.2b says your caddie can't stand behind you to line you up, except for on the putting green. And when on the putting green, you must back away when your caddie does it, and start again without the caddie lining you up.

> >

> > The commentary for the rule is that you can't set an object down to help you take a stance (10.2b.3). However, that being said, how can it not be a penalty to have one of those stand alone putters that you walk behind and use to line up your putt, then address and putt on that line? Seems like an alignment aid to me.

>

>

> 10.2b(4) which requires your caddie (or partner) to move away from behind you before you take your stance to make a stroke applies everywhere on the course.

>

> The limitations on what can be done on the putting green include

> a)while anyone can point out your line of play by standing on or near it when your ball is off the putting green, only you, your caddie or your partner can point out your line of play when your ball is on the putting green;

> b) you can set down an object to indicate your line of play when your ball is off the putting green provided it is removed before the stroke, but not when your ball is on the green.

>

> Regarding self standing putters, the rule is clear:

> _The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on or off the putting green to show the line of play._

>

> That to me says that if you put a putter down on the green and let go of it, it has been "set down" and if that is done in order to show your line of play, you are in breach of the rule whether it is lying on the ground or standing up. It is an object; it has been set down in order to show your line of play. I see no problem with the common practice of squatting down and holding your putter on the ground in front of you and using it to read the green. The putter has not been "set down"

Despite Colin's unimpeachable logic based on the published words, my understanding is that the USGA has provided explicit rulings that said the BAT stand alone putter is legal. I understand that there are conforming and non-conforming stand alone putters but the conforming ones are legal.

> @antip

& Colin L

> my understanding is that the USGA has provided explicit rulings that said the BAT stand alone putter is legal.

Have you a reference for that?

See PM

On the Champions Tour there is at least one player using a stand alone putter and so far no referee has interfered. That gives a hint that it is allowed for whatever reason.

> @Newby said:

> > @antip

> & Colin L

> > my understanding is that the USGA has provided explicit rulings that said the BAT stand alone putter is legal.

>

> Have you a reference for that?

>

> See PM

One reference is Ryan Farb response to 'Bartman' on the NCGA website 9 months ago. I'm familiar with the 4 October letter/public consultation process, but I understand that to be about ball markers as alignment devices, and is not related to stand alone putters.

> @"Colin L" said:

> That to me says that if you put a putter down on the green and let go of it, it has been "set down" and if that is done in order to show your line of play, you are in breach of the rule whether it is lying on the ground or standing up. It is an object; it has been set down in order to show your line of play. I see no problem with the common practice of squatting down and holding your putter on the ground in front of you and using it to read the green. The putter has not been "set down"

To me, that is not indicating line of play, that is indicating alignment of the putter to the intended line of play, just from a different angle than above looking down. If the putter were between the ball and the hole when this occurred, yes, it would be set down to indicate line of play. That is where I see the difference. Line of play is defined as "The line where the player intends his or her ball to go after a stroke, including the area on that line that is a reasonable distance up above the ground and on either side of that line", meaning between the ball and the hole, not behind the ball. No player intends his or her ball to go backward when they putt it.

There have been times on the course while I'm working on my alignment where I ask my playing partner to "check my alignment" because I tend to start drifting right when I am drawing the ball more. That seems to be a violation of the rule that I didn't realize. Then again, it's not competition or tournament round and it's basically a playing lesson (maybe kinda perhaps???)

> @lanzador49 said:

> There have been times on the course while I'm working on my alignment where I ask my playing partner to "check my alignment" because I tend to start drifting right when I am drawing the ball more. That seems to be a violation of the rule that I didn't realize. Then again, it's not competition or tournament round and it's basically a playing lesson (maybe kinda perhaps???)

If you take your stance while getting alignment help from your partner/caddie/ someone else standing behind you, it’s a 10.2b(4) violation unless you back away and then take your stance without help. See the Clarification, not the (basically superseded) rule. Here’s part:

If alignment help is given but the player backs away before making the stroke and the caddie moves out from behind the line of play, there is no breach of the Rule. This applies anywhere on the course.

The rules don’t change for a competition or tournament rounds, and they don’t apply at all if you’re taking a playing lesson.

> @bigred90gt said:

>

> To me, that is not indicating line of play, that is indicating alignment of the putter to the intended line of play, just from a different angle than above looking down. If the putter were between the ball and the hole when this occurred, yes, it would be set down to indicate line of play. That is where I see the difference. Line of play is defined as "The line where the player intends his or her ball to go after a stroke, including the area on that line that is a reasonable distance up above the ground and on either side of that line", meaning between the ball and the hole, not behind the ball. No player intends his or her ball to go backward when they putt it.

There is no mention of where the object is set down in relation to the ball. The restriction is on indicating the line of play. Players do not use the object to point in the direction of the ball (they can see where the ball is). They use it to indicate the line they wish the ball to tale on its way to the hole.

Why do you think the R&A/USGA are currently discussing the size and shape of Ball Markers with reference to indicating line of play? Ball Markers are placed behind the ball.

> @Sawgrass said:

>

> If you take your stance while getting alignment help from your partner/caddie/ someone else standing behind you, it’s a 10.2b(4) violation unless you back away and then take your stance without help. See the Clarification, not the (basically superseded) rule. Here’s part:

>

>

>

> If alignment help is given but the player backs away before making the stroke and the caddie moves out from behind the line of play, there is no breach of the Rule. This applies anywhere on the course.

>

>

>

> The rules don’t change for a competition or tournament rounds, and they don’t apply at all if you’re taking a playing lesson.

Not so sure about that even when the player backs off....seems like the the point of the violation occurs at address...the exception is, "other than on the putting green". I read the following:

"Referring to Rule 10.2b4, senior referee Andy McFee said: “We have been advised overnight by the R&A of an immediate change of interpretation within this rule intended to clarify when a player will be in breach.

“Beginning the stance to take a practice swing close to the ball has been removed as a point of breach.

“The position of the caddie when the player BEGINS to take the stance for ‘the stroke’ remains critical. The caddie cannot be deliberately standing on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason at this moment.

“Other than on the putting green, it continues to be true that there is no way out of this penalty by backing off the stance already taken."

-Martin Dempster, "The Scotsman" 3 February 2019

> @lanzador49 said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

>

> >

> > If you take your stance while getting alignment help from your partner/caddie/ someone else standing behind you, it’s a 10.2b(4) violation unless you back away and then take your stance without help. See the Clarification, not the (basically superseded) rule. Here’s part:

> >

> >

> >

> > If alignment help is given but the player backs away before making the stroke and the caddie moves out from behind the line of play, there is no breach of the Rule. This applies anywhere on the course.

> >

> >

> >

> > The rules don’t change for a competition or tournament rounds, and they don’t apply at all if you’re taking a playing lesson.

>

> Not so sure about that even when the player backs off....seems like the the point of the violation occurs at address...the exception is, "other than on the putting green". I read the following:

>

> "Referring to Rule 10.2b4, senior referee Andy McFee said: “We have been advised overnight by the R&A of an immediate change of interpretation within this rule intended to clarify when a player will be in breach.

>

> “Beginning the stance to take a practice swing close to the ball has been removed as a point of breach.

>

> “The position of the caddie when the player BEGINS to take the stance for ‘the stroke’ remains critical. The caddie cannot be deliberately standing on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason at this moment.

>

> “Other than on the putting green, it continues to be true that there is no way out of this penalty by backing off the stance already taken."

>

> -Martin Dempster, "The Scotsman" 3 February 2019

> @lanzador49 said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

>

> >

> > If you take your stance while getting alignment help from your partner/caddie/ someone else standing behind you, it’s a 10.2b(4) violation unless you back away and then take your stance without help. See the Clarification, not the (basically superseded) rule. Here’s part:

> >

> >

> >

> > If alignment help is given but the player backs away before making the stroke and the caddie moves out from behind the line of play, there is no breach of the Rule. This applies anywhere on the course.

> >

> >

> >

> > The rules don’t change for a competition or tournament rounds, and they don’t apply at all if you’re taking a playing lesson.

>

> Not so sure about that even when the player backs off....seems like the the point of the violation occurs at address...the exception is, "other than on the putting green". I read the following:

>

> "Referring to Rule 10.2b4, senior referee Andy McFee said: “We have been advised overnight by the R&A of an immediate change of interpretation within this rule intended to clarify when a player will be in breach.

>

> “Beginning the stance to take a practice swing close to the ball has been removed as a point of breach.

>

> “The position of the caddie when the player BEGINS to take the stance for ‘the stroke’ remains critical. The caddie cannot be deliberately standing on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason at this moment.

>

> “Other than on the putting green, it continues to be true that there is no way out of this penalty by backing off the stance already taken."

>

> -Martin Dempster, "The Scotsman" 3 February 2019

I see you’re “not so sure.” I explained that the original rule has basically been superseded by a Clarification. Look at the “full rule” on line, then click on “clarification available” and you’ll become sure. Or maybe this link will work:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rulesarticles/clarifications-of-the-2019-rules-of-golf.html#rule10

Thank you - much appreciatedZ

It’s truly confusing if you weren’t watching all along the way. I’m sure next time rules are released all that will be consolidated into a coherent rule, but for now the clarification must be considered.