Did the 2016 USGA solo round posting change create people that look like sandbaggers but aren't?

I haven't played in years and found out today that solo players are not supposed to post solo rounds. I saw the part that if someone is with you for enough holes, even if they are not playing, that you can post the score. Here's the hypothetical in my head.

When I did play a lot, I maintained an index but a good portion of my round were truly solo. My last active USGA index, probably around 2013, was a 30.3 from lack of play. I once had it down to 19 and change when I played quite a bit. Say I start playing again( no idea what index would start at or if it's irrelevant with the WHS in 2020) but let's use the 30.3 for now. I should improve over time as I play more but I won't be able to post all of my scores. That makes me think my index will be higher than it should and I'll look like a sandbagger.

I understand that the course rating committee, maybe even the competition committee, can adjust a player's HCP for an event. But I would only expect this if the player is at their home course. So I play a tournament at a public course nearby and they pull my current index from the USGA. The index is legit but I am more likely to be able to play under it, which isn't the original intent I assume.

Since it's been a few years with this system in place, what have people seen? Has the number of actual sandbaggers gone down? Are there more ' accidental sandbaggers', because they can't post solo scores?

I'm just curious( but also bummed that I won't be able to post scores like I used to, lol).

> @bortass said:

> Since it's been a few years with this system in place, what have people seen? Has the number of actual sandbaggers gone down? Are there more ' accidental sandbaggers', because they can't post solo scores?

I doubt that any data is available to answer your question. But I'm guessing that it had no effect. There are many ways to sandbag and I know of no system in place today to prevent sandbagging.

No such thing as an accidental sandbagger.

Why would your index be assumed to be higher just because you aren't posting all your scores?

Why are you more likely to play under your handicap in a tournament and not at your home course at that? You are assuming playing alone yields more and lower countable scores for you - you are shooting the assumed higher scores playing with other folks, like at a tournament, never mind the added pressure.

Anyway, the rules are the rules and same for everyone who isn't posting while playing alone.

Half of my rounds per year are usually by myself. I tend to get a round in during the week after work (play by myself) and play with a group on the weekend. I stopped submitting my solo rounds about a year ago (was not aware of the USGA change until then) and I did not notice my handicap change much. So I don't think it has an effect on sandbagging.

I don't think I play better by myself. However I am convinced I play better with some people compared to others....but that's a different topic.

It makes absolutely no difference. You are your handicap. There simply aren’t, legit, players that play to a 19 but hold a 30 cap because they don’t post solo scores.

If a player actually plays to a 19, his cap will be about 19.

The “no solo round posting” was much ado about nothing. Post them. Don’t post them. You’ll end up at the same handicap if you are truly trying your best every round.

Sandbaggers shoot 78 and post 88 unchecked. Or they don’t shoot anything and just post bogus scores.

Lastly, why would anyone think that the scores they shoot by themselves translate in any way to the scores they shoot in a 4-some in competition? Playing by yourself your pace is quick and you don’t have any distractions. In a tourney, you’re playing 5 hours and constantly waiting for others. The only thing that is the same is that when it’s your turn, you get to swing at the ball. That’s really the only similarity.

Since there truly is no verification of the score a player posts, solo or not, the ban on solo round posting would make no difference in and of itself in preventing sandbagging.

Take the instance of where you play golf with a complete stranger, or with someone who has no clue as to the handicapping system. Why in the world would THOSE rounds be valid for posting, yet one played solo not be allowed?

The ONLY way to eliminate sandbagging is to have two handicaps, one which includes all scores, and one which only includes T scores, which can only be posted by sanctioned organized events. Of course, with the World Handicapping System, the T score designation is going away, so that idea is shot down.

I see what the OP is saying. IF you play say 75% of your rounds solo. And you for whatever reason play much worse with others. Or in comps. And those are the only rounds posted. Then your handicap will favor the posted rounds only. Which is 25z% sample of your total playing time. So Technically you’d be a sandbagger. But in practice the cap you have listed really is best snapshot of what you’ll do in competition. Which is the only point of a handicap. So In practice not a sandbagger.

So yes and no. And I totally get what he’s saying. When I first started playing , easily 90% of my rounds were walking alone. Almost always in the evening so no group to join etc. when you can’t post most of your rounds it feels disingenuous on some level. But I agree the rounds you post with others will suffice for a handicap to play off of.

> @larrybud said:

>

>

> The ONLY way to eliminate sandbagging is to have two handicaps, one which includes all scores, and one which only includes T scores, which can only be posted by sanctioned organized events. Of course, with the World Handicapping System, the T score designation is going away, so that idea is shot down.

The BEST way to eliminate sandbagging is to have two handicaps, one which includes all social/casual and unattested scores, and one which only includes competition scores, which can only be posted for sanctioned organized events and declared and attested solo scores.

> @Newby said:

> > @larrybud said:

> >

> >

> > The ONLY way to eliminate sandbagging is to have two handicaps, one which includes all scores, and one which only includes T scores, which can only be posted by sanctioned organized events. Of course, with the World Handicapping System, the T score designation is going away, so that idea is shot down.

>

> The BEST way to eliminate sandbagging is to have two handicaps, one which includes all social/casual and unattested scores, and one which only includes competition scores, which can only be posted for sanctioned organized events and declared and attested solo scores.

@Newby, I don’t think you mean attested solo scores as this is by definition impossible. I think you mean pre registered, attested singles strokeplay scores.

> @bladehunter said:

> I see what the OP is saying. IF you play say 75% of your rounds solo. And you for whatever reason play much worse with others. Or in comps. And those are the only rounds posted. Then your handicap will favor the posted rounds only. Which is 25z% sample of your total playing time. So Technically you’d be a sandbagger. But in practice the cap you have listed really is best snapshot of what you’ll do in competition. Which is the only point of a handicap. So In practice not a sandbagger.

>

> So yes and no. And I totally get what he’s saying. When I first started playing , easily 90% of my rounds were walking alone. Almost always in the evening so no group to join etc. when you can’t post most of your rounds it feels disingenuous on some level. But I agree the rounds you post with others will suffice for a handicap to play off of.

Unless, just unless, you play under a 'comp score only' handicap system in the EGA. (or others). I have played 30+ rounds this year of which 5 have been postable. Those 5 took my cap from a 10.3 to a 9.5; yay! Meanwhile I tracked my non-postable scores via spreadsheet as per the USGA system. The 30+ rounds on the whole have taken my 'unofficial cap' from the same 10.3 to a 6.5!

So on most courses I'm suddenly picking up 4-5 shots from where I 'should' be. On the other hand, everyone else could be doing the same thing, so I don't really have an andvantage. No posting of practice rounds does allow one to improve faster than their cap more easily though.

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> No such thing as an accidental sandbagger.

>

> Why would your index be assumed to be higher just because you aren't posting all your scores?

>

> Why are you more likely to play under your handicap in a tournament and not at your home course at that? You are assuming playing alone yields more and lower countable scores for you - you are shooting the assumed higher scores playing with other folks, like at a tournament, never mind the added pressure.

>

> Anyway, the rules are the rules and same for everyone who isn't posting while playing alone.

I did a poor job articulating. There was a period of time when I played a lot and worked on my game and I got my index down to 19 something. I started playing less and my scores went the other way. It got to the point where I didn't rejoin the club because I had played maybe 4 - 5 rounds in a 2 year span. Last I knew my index was 30 something. I have played a round a year for the last 5 years, and I have seen flashes of my old game.

My personal opinion is that if I start to actually play more than once a year, I will start to improve and get better than that 30 index. But since I'm likely to play a fair number of solo rounds, scores won't be entered that could help lower it faster(the reality is this can cut both ways). It has nothing to do with how I play solo or with others. That has never impacted my game. It just has to do with not entering all of my scores.

They made this change for a reason and I was wondering if anyone has noticed any anecdotal difference since that rule went in almost 4 years ago.

> @bladehunter said:

> I see what the OP is saying. IF you play say 75% of your rounds solo. And you for whatever reason play much worse with others. Or in comps. And those are the only rounds posted. Then your handicap will favor the posted rounds only. Which is 25z% sample of your total playing time. So Technically you’d be a sandbagger. **But in practice the cap you have listed really is best snapshot of what you’ll do in competition. Which is the only point of a handicap**. So In practice not a sandbagger.

>

> So yes and no. And I totally get what he’s saying. When I first started playing , easily 90% of my rounds were walking alone. Almost always in the evening so no group to join etc. when you can’t post most of your rounds it feels disingenuous on some level. But I agree the rounds you post with others will suffice for a handicap to play off of.

The bold part is the most important. A Handicap is meant to be used to make competitions reasonably fair. In a competition, you're going to be playing with other players. Consequently, the rounds that should be used to determine your handicap should be the rounds you play with other players. If you play better when you're alone, I don't care, you don't play alone when you compete.

For the OP, whose scores from 3 years ago don't represent his current playing ability, the only thing to be done is to post all of the appropriate scores now. For any player whose current play is better than the bulk of his handicap scoring history, he's going to look like a sandbagger for a while until his handicap "catches up." If you're really concerned, ask tournament organizers review your scoring history and adjust as they feel appropriate. But its making a big assumption that you're going to quickly return to the level of play you were before, it might take a while, so your handicap might just be more accurate than you think it will be.

> @davep043 said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > I see what the OP is saying. IF you play say 75% of your rounds solo. And you for whatever reason play much worse with others. Or in comps. And those are the only rounds posted. Then your handicap will favor the posted rounds only. Which is 25z% sample of your total playing time. So Technically you’d be a sandbagger. **But in practice the cap you have listed really is best snapshot of what you’ll do in competition. Which is the only point of a handicap**. So In practice not a sandbagger.

> >

> > So yes and no. And I totally get what he’s saying. When I first started playing , easily 90% of my rounds were walking alone. Almost always in the evening so no group to join etc. when you can’t post most of your rounds it feels disingenuous on some level. But I agree the rounds you post with others will suffice for a handicap to play off of.

>

> The bold part is the most important. A Handicap is meant to be used to make competitions reasonably fair. In a competition, you're going to be playing with other players. Consequently, the rounds that should be used to determine your handicap should be the rounds you play with other players. If you play better when you're alone, I don't care, you don't play alone when you compete.

>

> For the OP, whose scores from 3 years ago don't represent his current playing ability, the only thing to be done is to post all of the appropriate scores now. For any player whose current play is better than the bulk of his handicap scoring history, he's going to look like a sandbagger for a while until his handicap "catches up." If you're really concerned, ask tournament organizers review your scoring history and adjust as they feel appropriate. But its making a big assumption that you're going to quickly return to the level of play you were before, it might take a while, so your handicap might just be more accurate than you think it will be.

The rub will come when he loses the self consciousness when playing with others and plays to his true potential. Then for a period of a few weeks he should bet a lot. Lol. But then IF he posts his cap will come down. And I guess all is well.

I think most of you are missing the OP's point. I don't think the OP is talking about playing worse with others vs. alone.

What he's saying is that he hasn't played in awhile, so his cap is at its highest (30-ish). By starting to play regularly again, he believes he will *improve* dramatically, scoring closer to when he had his low index of 19-ish. If the majority of those rounds are played solo, he can't post them, so his index will remain roughly the same.

Let's say he plays 40 rounds over a 10 week period, shooting 100+ at the beginning, but having the last 15 or so rounds around 90 because he's getting his swing back. If he plays 38 of those 40 rounds by himself, and can only post 2 of the rounds, his index isn't going to move much, but he's playing much better golf. That's a case of **someone playing much better than their completely legitimate high handicap**.

One thing my club does to prevent this kind of thing is require a minimum number of rounds posted to qualify for a tournament.

> @SecondandGoal said:

> I think most of you are missing the OP's point. I don't think the OP is talking about playing worse with others vs. alone.

>

> What he's saying is that he hasn't played in awhile, so his cap is at its highest (30-ish). By starting to play regularly again, he believes he will *improve* dramatically, scoring closer to when he had his low index of 19-ish. If the majority of those rounds are played solo, he can't post them, so his index will remain roughly the same.

>

> Let's say he plays 40 rounds over a 10 week period, shooting 100+ at the beginning, but having the last 15 or so rounds around 90 because he's getting his swing back. If he plays 38 of those 40 rounds by himself, and can only post 2 of the rounds, his index isn't going to move much, but he's playing much better golf. That's a case of **someone playing much better than their completely legitimate high handicap**.

>

> One thing my club does to prevent this kind of thing is require a minimum number of rounds posted to qualify for a tournament.

Currently, the first two good T scores he ends up posting will quickly mandate a likely downward handicap adjustment, and next year other protections will apply. Not, IMO, the end of the world.

> @bortass said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > No such thing as an accidental sandbagger.

> >

> > Why would your index be assumed to be higher just because you aren't posting all your scores?

> >

> > Why are you more likely to play under your handicap in a tournament and not at your home course at that? You are assuming playing alone yields more and lower countable scores for you - you are shooting the assumed higher scores playing with other folks, like at a tournament, never mind the added pressure.

> >

> > Anyway, the rules are the rules and same for everyone who isn't posting while playing alone.

>

> I did a poor job articulating. There was a period of time when I played a lot and worked on my game and I got my index down to 19 something. I started playing less and my scores went the other way. It got to the point where I didn't rejoin the club because I had played maybe 4 - 5 rounds in a 2 year span. Last I knew my index was 30 something. I have played a round a year for the last 5 years, and I have seen flashes of my old game.

>

> My personal opinion is that if I start to actually play more than once a year, I will start to improve and get better than that 30 index. But since I'm likely to play a fair number of solo rounds, scores won't be entered that could help lower it faster(the reality is this can cut both ways). It has nothing to do with how I play solo or with others. That has never impacted my game. It just has to do with not entering all of my scores.

>

> They made this change for a reason and I was wondering if anyone has noticed any anecdotal difference since that rule went in almost 4 years ago.

>

>

If it's just a matter of your ratio of alone rounds to rounds with "company" is 3/1 or 5/1 or whatever I see what you are getting at just by law of averages, but your handicap will be legit if you post according to the rules and shouldn't cause you any heartburn. If it does, I'd say make the concerted effort to play more postable rounds - that is within your control if you are feeling some conflict about it.

Hope you have more time to play period AND get better.

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @SecondandGoal said:

> > I think most of you are missing the OP's point. I don't think the OP is talking about playing worse with others vs. alone.

> >

> > What he's saying is that he hasn't played in awhile, so his cap is at its highest (30-ish). By starting to play regularly again, he believes he will *improve* dramatically, scoring closer to when he had his low index of 19-ish. If the majority of those rounds are played solo, he can't post them, so his index will remain roughly the same.

> >

> > Let's say he plays 40 rounds over a 10 week period, shooting 100+ at the beginning, but having the last 15 or so rounds around 90 because he's getting his swing back. If he plays 38 of those 40 rounds by himself, and can only post 2 of the rounds, his index isn't going to move much, but he's playing much better golf. That's a case of **someone playing much better than their completely legitimate high handicap**.

> >

> > One thing my club does to prevent this kind of thing is require a minimum number of rounds posted to qualify for a tournament.

>

> Currently, the first two good T scores he ends up posting will quickly mandate a likely downward handicap adjustment, and next year other protections will apply. Not, IMO, the end of the world.

That's good to hear. I really don't know if/when I'd play in a tourney but I guess the thought of potentially being considered a sandbagger bugs me. I used to get some flak from the older group of guys that had a daily game when I'd join them. Real small stakes, maybe $4-5 bucks, with how they did things. It's a point game based off HCP. So as a 30, I'd need 6 points. I've come in @ +14 before because I am erratic. I might have shot a 99 or 100 because of the 7 - 9s that I had but I had plenty of boogies and pars to score well in the game.

I don't have to worry about that exact situation now since I relocated 1200 miles south and we're thinking of joining the local club. I think my last active year in GHIN was 2014, so I assume I'm starting all over. I foresee that maybe I could run into a similar situation if I do start playing a lot and try to play in any of the club events.

End of the day, I'm overthinking things most likely and it'll be fun to play more than once a year.

If you don't think that tournament scores can be "artificially inflated" you are delusional.

Also, match play and stroke play are different forms of golf that create different risks. For example, if I have to get up and down to halve a hole, I'll hit a very low percentage shot which could result in a double/triple or worse. In stroke play, I may just take my medicine and go for a bogey.

> @larrybud said:>

> The ONLY way to eliminate sandbagging is to have two handicaps, one which includes all scores, and one which only includes T scores, which can only be posted by sanctioned organized events.

That would not eliminate sandbagging. A sandbagger can fudge his numbers even in a tournament.

You wanna jack your scores up in a tournament, go for it, that does nothing but help my position.

> @larrybud said:

> You wanna jack your scores up in a tournament, go for it, that does nothing but help my position.

Isn't "jacking up your scores" exactly what sandbaggers do? How would that help your position?

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @larrybud said:

> > You wanna jack your scores up in a tournament, go for it, that does nothing but help my position.

>

> Isn't "jacking up your scores" exactly what sandbaggers do? How would that help your position?

They jack it up in non-tournament rounds, so they get more shots when there's a prize at stake. Doing it in a tournament is a bit counterproductive to that strategy.

> @Bluefan75 said:

> > @Roadking2003 said:

> > > @larrybud said:

> > > You wanna jack your scores up in a tournament, go for it, that does nothing but help my position.

> >

> > Isn't "jacking up your scores" exactly what sandbaggers do? How would that help your position?

>

> They jack it up in non-tournament rounds, so they get more shots when there's a prize at stake. Doing it in a tournament is a bit counterproductive to that strategy.

But still possible. If a sandbagger has a bad start he can always dog it down the stretch to work on his handicap.

An "opportunity" just occurred to me related to this thread. I used to have a golf club in my hands 5 to 6 days a week (mix of practice and play). Right now I average maybe once per week (almost all play and almost zero practice). And my handicap moved up as you would expect.

I suppose that I could take a month or two and go back to my old habits but ONLY play solo rounds on the course. I would expect my game to improve a good bit. And then I could pick a high payout net event and become a 'honest sandbagger'.

I have no intentions in that direction - but an interesting thought (to me, anyway).

dave

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> An "opportunity" just occurred to me related to this thread. I used to have a golf club in my hands 5 to 6 days a week (mix of practice and play). Right now I average maybe once per week (almost all play and almost zero practice). And my handicap moved up as you would expect.

>

> I suppose that I could take a month or two and go back to my old habits but ONLY play solo rounds on the course. I would expect my game to improve a good bit. And then I could pick a high payout net event and become a 'honest sandbagger'.

>

> I have no intentions in that direction - but an interesting thought (to me, anyway).

>

> dave

That's what I was trying to get at originally. For me it was because I'd go out for a quick 9 a fair amount and never had a set group. I would play whenever I felt like it and if I was paired with people on the course fine but most time I wasn't. I find it kind of funny that the rules say I should post less but it is what it is. Teach me to not play for 5 years and not keep up with things....

The more I read these posts about all the different ways sandbaggers can beat the system, the more I don't want anything to do with net scoring.

Best to find a group of golfers equal in talent and play gross. Unfortunately, that's easier said then done.

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> An "opportunity" just occurred to me related to this thread. I used to have a golf club in my hands 5 to 6 days a week (mix of practice and play). Right now I average maybe once per week (almost all play and almost zero practice). And my handicap moved up as you would expect.

>

> I suppose that I could take a month or two and go back to my old habits but ONLY play solo rounds on the course. I would expect my game to improve a good bit. And then I could pick a high payout net event and become a 'honest sandbagger'.

>

> I have no intentions in that direction - but an interesting thought (to me, anyway).

>

> dave

Its not any difference from getting lessons and being a range rat for the same amount of time. Two problems exist however. One is practice is different than actual playing in competition. The second is unless your handicap is high enough to honestly sandbag, its a one trick pony as you're gonna get R'd so you'll have to find events run by incompetents.

> @3GoodPutts said:

> The more I read these posts about all the different ways sandbaggers can beat the system, the more I don't want anything to do with net scoring.

>

> Best to find a group of golfers equal in talent and play gross. Unfortunately, that's easier said then done.

Or find an honest group of friends who actually do things properly. Or volunteer for the Handicap Committee at your home club, and work to make the handicaps more true. For all of the talk about sandbagging, I don't believe that these guys are all that common, I believe most golfers do their best to follow the rules.

> @davep043 said:

> For all of the talk about sandbagging, I don't believe that these guys are all that common, I believe most golfers do their best to follow the rules.

I agree. I play with 15 - 20 guys throughout the year and we all keep our own scores and do our own posting. I don't think any of them sandbag. If they did, it would be obvious to the rest of us.

I find this to be a rather misguided rule. Lots of folks play solo from time to time, and it's not like when you do play with other people they are tracking your score.