Matching swings to clubs

I want to take a stab at a subject that'll probably get me heavily criticized, but it's an issue I've encountered repeatedly over the years. I think matching swing types to club types is more important than golfers generally appreciate.

My first example comes from my experience with single plane swings. When I took one of Todd Graves' Natural Golf schools, I had the opportunity to hit a set of Moe Norman's clubs. These were clubs that Moe actually used, not knock-offs. When I used a Moe Norman single plane swing with those clubs, I hit the ball dead straight_ every single time_. I didn't hit it particularly far, but I hit it straight. On the other hand, if I swung those clubs using a classic, PGA-approved two plane swing, I hit a slice every time. I could not get those clubs to square at impact. The situation was reversed if I used my own clubs. If I used the Moe Noman single plane swing with my clubs, I hit a hard hook every time. The only way I could hit those clubs straight was to use a classic two-plane swing.

More recently, I had another example. My instructor had been trying to get me to use a particular grip and more upright swing plane than I normally employ. It never seemed to work with my clubs, and I voiced that objection to him. His response was that I just needed more practice. Recently, however, I had the opportunity to hit my instructor's clubs. With his clubs, the grip he recommended and the swing plane he recommended worked nicely. So, his mechanical recommendations worked with his clubs but not with mine. My clubs require a different kind of move. Interestingly, my swing with his clubs didn't work at all. My draws were hooks; my straight shots were draws; and my fades were straight.

I don't begin to understand what swing characteristics match which club styles. But, I'm convinced that the way you swing a game improvement iron is fundamentally different from the way you swing a player's iron and vice versa. And it isn't just a matter of precision. Sure, player's irons require more swing precision than GI irons, that's the point of GI irons. But, it seems to be more than that. I think that when you start moving the COG around and getting it away from the hosel, a different kind of swing is required. In some extreme cases, designers aren't just correcting for a high handicapper's swing deficiencies, they're actually requiring a different kind of swing.

In conclusion, I understand that matching clubs to swings is a well-recognized issue in the world of club fitting. In fact, it's one of the reasons that fitting has grown so popular and why this post isn't in the Equipment section of this forum. What I'm suggesting is that the effect goes in the other direction, as well. The kind of swing that you'd encourage to a student with a bag full of player's irons is fundamentally different from the swing you'd encourage to a student bagging GI irons. The effect isn't subtle, either. It goes all the way back to grip and stance and carries thru to swing plane and impact position.

I'm just fascinated that you were able to learn and switch back and forth between swing types on command.

I'd also suggest that if you didn't hit the Natural golf clubs very far, that may not have been the swing for you regardless.

The clubs you use will force some changes by either necessity or visual that don't look right so you adjust setup to m ske it look right. The latter I'm really bad about as I can't stand upright clubs though the lieiing lie board at fittings always says I need uprights. I tend to want to stand the club up at address so the club is soled flat.

I have played players irons for most of my adult life. I have what you call a single plane swing. Not cause I was taught it, but that I just adapted to swinging that way. I play standard lie angles and lengths and have for many years. When I have to play GI or SGI clubs (rentals or borrowed) I have a great deal of trouble aligning the clubface. Everything goes more left than usual (righty) because I just can't seem to get the face squared up. So, you may have a point!

BT

> @oikos1 said:

> I'm just fascinated that you were able to learn and switch back and forth between swing types on command.

>

> I'd also suggest that if you didn't hit the Natural golf clubs very far, that may not have been the swing for you regardless.

The essence of modern teaching is that we ought to be able to make mechanical changes on command, so my ability to do it isn't very special. I've got five sets of irons in my garage, and each one requires a different kind of swing. My opinion is that if you get your swing theories out of the way, the club will tell you how to swing it. Let the club do the work.

The clubs I referred to were a set of Moe's clubs, not Natural Golf clubs. Very interesting -- super stiff shafts, small grips that were like sand paper, blades with a mountain of lead tape on the back of each one. The difference in performance between them and a set of GI irons was like night and day. That was the day I began to learn that matching club styles to swing styles is important.

As for Natural Golf not being the swing for me, as I said in another thread on single plane swings, I've never gotten the Moe Norman version of that system to consistently work in any form. Not that it makes any difference for the current discussion, but my current swing is more along the lines of what Jim Hardy recommends, though there are differences. That move is most consistent with what my aging body wants to do. The challenge this year has been trying to match a set of clubs to it.

People realize ball the goes where club points right? Sure length and lie will influence your swing which will influencr ball flight but unless your clubs are 2 inches too long or 4* upright (you could go short and flat as well) it doesnt matter. Your 40 yard hook isnt turning into a straight ball if you go a degree flat, same your straight shouldnt turn into a 40 yard slice if you bend a degree flat.

I would just say your ibstructor is trying to get you to swing with their feels not your own.

> @"Santiago Golf" said:

> I would just say your ibstructor is trying to get you to swing with their feels not your own.

Yes, but I would say that it's more that just feel. It's fundamental technique. The part of the story that I didn't tell is what happened when he hit my clubs. If you'll recall, I said that when I hit his clubs with my swing technique, every shot had a hook bias. This wasn't a question of fitting. The clubs fit just fine. His clubs required a move that had a bit of cut to it...and that's the kind of move he has. Conversely, when he swung my clubs with his technique, he hit everything to the right. Hence, his swing technique wasn't suited to my clubs. I don't need to fight off a hook by hitting a mild cut. I have a very neutral swing. There were other differences, as well. His clubs have the COG higher on the face, so you've got to position the ball farther back in your stance and hit down on it. Mine have the COG quite low and require more of a sweep into the ball. So, you have to play the ball a little farther forward. IMHO, all these adjustments are examples of how the club, itself, is dictating the swing. The placement of the COG affects the clubhead's fundamental rate of closure which, in turn, effects grip, setup position and swing plane.

Nothing really controversial about what you're saying. I think most good players know this intuitively through trial and error over the years with different clubs. I'm on the short side and play my clubs 4* flat. When my taller buddy with an upright swing grabs them he tends to slice them off the planet. Likewise, if I grab an off the rack, standard length club, with upright lie angles, I'll tend to hit it left of left. I will say I don't think the swing itself needs to change to fit the clubs (okay, maybe the tempo), but setup/ball-positioning and grip definitely need to be altered based on the club. And I really don't think player's clubs and GI clubs require different swings, especially if you control for loft, lie, length, face angle and shaft stiffness. But you can definitely get away with a looser swing with a GI club.

One of the big issues coming to golf from Slow pitch softball was the enormous amount of equipment available in golf. I was a total gear ho in softball.... had 20 bats. I knew all the bats their characteristics and even hit most of them and found the bat that really fit my swing the best and same goes with gloves. BUT I thought I would be able to use those skills at figuring out equipment with golf too but I was so wrong because there is just way too many clubs available and then clubs can have different shafts, grips, specs of loft and lie etc... So for one set of clubs it could be set up a hundred different ways. Then add the $ cost of trying and buying many clubs to widdle it down isn't most can afford.

So I do think you are correct that certain clubs fit certain swings but to know what you have is better then something else is almost impossible for non pros.... Its another main advantage pros have over amateurs is that they are waaaay closer to knowing what their holy grail set needs to be like based on their swing to play their best golf.

> @MountainGoat said:

> I want to take a stab at a subject that'll probably get me heavily criticized, but it's an issue I've encountered repeatedly over the years. I think matching swing types to club types is more important than golfers generally appreciate.

>

> My first example comes from my experience with single plane swings. When I took one of Todd Graves' Natural Golf schools, I had the opportunity to hit a set of Moe Norman's clubs. These were clubs that Moe actually used, not knock-offs. When I used a Moe Norman single plane swing with those clubs, I hit the ball dead straight_ every single time_. I didn't hit it particularly far, but I hit it straight. On the other hand, if I swung those clubs using a classic, PGA-approved two plane swing, I hit a slice every time. I could not get those clubs to square at impact. The situation was reversed if I used my own clubs. If I used the Moe Noman single plane swing with my clubs, I hit a hard hook every time. The only way I could hit those clubs straight was to use a classic two-plane swing.

>

> More recently, I had another example. My instructor had been trying to get me to use a particular grip and more upright swing plane than I normally employ. It never seemed to work with my clubs, and I voiced that objection to him. His response was that I just needed more practice. Recently, however, I had the opportunity to hit my instructor's clubs. With his clubs, the grip he recommended and the swing plane he recommended worked nicely. So, his mechanical recommendations worked with his clubs but not with mine. My clubs require a different kind of move. Interestingly, my swing with his clubs didn't work at all. My draws were hooks; my straight shots were draws; and my fades were straight.

>

> I don't begin to understand what swing characteristics match which club styles. But, I'm convinced that the way you swing a game improvement iron is fundamentally different from the way you swing a player's iron and vice versa. And it isn't just a matter of precision. Sure, player's irons require more swing precision than GI irons, that's the point of GI irons. But, it seems to be more than that. I think that when you start moving the COG around and getting it away from the hosel, a different kind of swing is required. In some extreme cases, designers aren't just correcting for a high handicapper's swing deficiencies, they're actually requiring a different kind of swing.

>

> In conclusion, I understand that matching clubs to swings is a well-recognized issue in the world of club fitting. In fact, it's one of the reasons that fitting has grown so popular and why this post isn't in the Equipment section of this forum. What I'm suggesting is that the effect goes in the other direction, as well. The kind of swing that you'd encourage to a student with a bag full of player's irons is fundamentally different from the swing you'd encourage to a student bagging GI irons. The effect isn't subtle, either. It goes all the way back to grip and stance and carries thru to swing plane and impact position.

I’m very interested in this. I too am a chameleon ( as I’ve coined it ) and have experienced this.

I can swap to a bigger set of irons and inside 2 days my tempo is faster and ballstriking suffers. It’s as if when you give me room to miss, I’ll miss more often.

I wish it wasn’t the case. But I’ve tried it sooo many times. There simply is no way to swap a guy who hits a small thin soles iron well , to a wide soled big iron. The swing must change to hit the latter and it’s not a change for the better.

I too do something along these lines. I have different feelings and swing thoughts for wedges, irons, and woods. Also, my grip varies to help separate these clubs. For wedges I use a classic 10 finger baseball style grip, for my irons I use the Tiger interlocking grip, and then for my woods I switch back to the 10 finger grip.

For the most part I assume my swing looks very similar with all my clubs but how it feels to me is definitely different.