Rules: Another what would you have done thread.

Ok, so my son is in the final group at the US Kids Monterey Challenge over the weekend.

We are on the #12, which is a downhill par 3 at 111 yards. The leader is last up and blows one high and right- We all see the ball plug at least half way in the bunker. As he gets ready to hit, I see him doing something with his feet near the ball kind of in a sweeping motion. He would also look up every few seconds to see if anyone was watching. Appears he is smoothing the sand out around the ball to basically improve his lie. As he sets up I inch my way to the back of the bunker to see what he was doing and he quickly hits it and skulls it over the green. I'll admit, the kid is a fast player, but it really seemed like he rushed it so I couldn't see what he did. The other kids in the group really didn't have a clue what was going on as they were on the opposite side of the bunker reading their putts.

A part of me wanted to ask the kid if he improved his lie, but then again I was the only one who was watching so I had no choice but to let it be.

you didn't see it ... it didn't happen

> @cardoustie said:

> you didn't see it ... it didn't happen

What I saw is him making a sweeping motion in the sand near the ball. Whether he improved the lie doing this or not, isn't that considered testing the surface?

I probably would have approached him either after the hole that you saw something. You weren't sure if he was taking his stance or improving his lie, but warn him that if he was improving his lie that he needed to call a penalty on himself. Leaves it up to him and his conscience.

> @MikekiM said:

> I probably would have approached him either after the hole that you saw something. You weren't sure if he was taking his stance or improving his lie, but warn him that if he was improving his lie that he needed to call a penalty on himself. Leaves it up to him and his conscience.

If you're going to call it out, talk to the caddy. Don't talk to the player directly.

he could've been brushing away impediments, or taking a stance

... you can't challenge a kid for cheating if you're not a player and you didn't see it happening

I guess bunker boy won

I would have slap the Dad!

> @TripleBogeysrbetter said:

> I would have slap the Dad!

The mom was caddying so I couldn't.

Tough call since you didn’t see it. Watch him like a hawk next time cause I’m sure you guys will run into him many times in the future from locals to worlds.

Hard to say anything if your not 100%. I error on the side of letting it slide but paying more attention.

Usually if they get away with something you can bet they will do it again.

I would say you should have said something but from experience you will get nowhere unless you have a outside witness.

Lots of players play with lies to get a break.

Question is whether you were a caddie or spectator. Spectator your not apart of the match as a caddie you are so you can bring this up at that point.

> @cardoustie said:

> you didn't see it ... it didn't happen

The above statement is ignorant and wrong. You can absolutely challenge someone for cheating if you feel like they were. How you go about it though matters. If you run in like an asshole then you're just that. If you're polite then no one has to get their feelings hurt.

> @mrshinsa said:

> > @MikekiM said:

> > I probably would have approached him either after the hole that you saw something. You weren't sure if he was taking his stance or improving his lie, but warn him that if he was improving his lie that he needed to call a penalty on himself. Leaves it up to him and his conscience.

>

> If you're going to call it out, talk to the caddy. Don't talk to the player directly.

Another poor ideas up here as well. It doesn't help the kid to talk about him behind his back while hes standing right there. Pull everyone together and talk about it as a group ON THAT HOLE! Then let the cards fall as to who saw what and leave it to the player to make the right decision. Waiting around till the end is always a bad idea. Address it when you see it and that way it's fresh in everyone's mind and you don't have the scapegoat of "I don't remember"

No father of a fellow competitor can stand there and say an opponent cheated ... when he didn't even see it happen. C'MON !!!!!!!!!!!!

Have you folks played high level tournament golf? Maybe it is different for little kids with all the Tiger parents helicoptering around ... IDK

I hear some crazy stories up here of parents cheating for their kids in junior events .. it's all about the scholarship

> @mattwalterpga said:

> Question is whether you were a caddie or spectator. Spectator your not apart of the match as a caddie you are so you can bring this up at that point.

>

> > @cardoustie said:

> > you didn't see it ... it didn't happen

>

> The above statement is ignorant and wrong. You can absolutely challenge someone for cheating if you feel like they were. How you go about it though matters. If you run in like an **** then you're just that. If you're polite then no one has to get their feelings hurt.

>

> > @mrshinsa said:

> > > @MikekiM said:

> > > I probably would have approached him either after the hole that you saw something. You weren't sure if he was taking his stance or improving his lie, but warn him that if he was improving his lie that he needed to call a penalty on himself. Leaves it up to him and his conscience.

> >

> > If you're going to call it out, talk to the caddy. Don't talk to the player directly.

>

> Another poor ideas up here as well. It doesn't help the kid to talk about him behind his back while hes standing right there. Pull everyone together and talk about it as a group ON THAT HOLE! Then let the cards fall as to who saw what and leave it to the player to make the right decision. Waiting around till the end is always a bad idea. Address it when you see it and that way it's fresh in everyone's mind and you don't have the scapegoat of "I don't remember"

>

>

Have to agree you must not play a lot tournaments or your that parent who no one will play with.

You can’t challenge anyone in tournaments without it getting pretty heated. Most cheaters will try and make a scene just the way it is. The also usually have buddies with others too who will make a point to make other tournaments miserable for you.

Second unless you have a witness not related to you in almost every case the tournament director will just go with the cheater. You what it sucks and sometimes it kids who are the winners week in and week out. If you suspect someone is cheating you have to be patient eventually they get caught. Best course of action is make a joke so they know your watching usually stops stuff in the tracks. I would have said make a joke about what they are doing but if your not 100% sure it better to lie low and see if they do it again.

Higher up tournaments the less chance and they have officials who catch cheaters but not a US kids event.

> @cardoustie said:

> No father of a fellow competitor can stand there and say an opponent cheated ... when he didn't even see it happen. C'MON !!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> Have you folks played high level tournament golf? Maybe it is different for little kids with all the Tiger parents helicoptering around ... IDK

>

> I hear some crazy stories up here of parents cheating for their kids in junior events .. it's all about the scholarship

Well.... I mean I have played in professional events.....

> @tiger1873 said:

> > @mattwalterpga said:

> > Question is whether you were a caddie or spectator. Spectator your not apart of the match as a caddie you are so you can bring this up at that point.

> >

> > > @cardoustie said:

> > > you didn't see it ... it didn't happen

> >

> > The above statement is ignorant and wrong. You can absolutely challenge someone for cheating if you feel like they were. How you go about it though matters. If you run in like an **** then you're just that. If you're polite then no one has to get their feelings hurt.

> >

> > > @mrshinsa said:

> > > > @MikekiM said:

> > > > I probably would have approached him either after the hole that you saw something. You weren't sure if he was taking his stance or improving his lie, but warn him that if he was improving his lie that he needed to call a penalty on himself. Leaves it up to him and his conscience.

> > >

> > > If you're going to call it out, talk to the caddy. Don't talk to the player directly.

> >

> > Another poor ideas up here as well. It doesn't help the kid to talk about him behind his back while hes standing right there. Pull everyone together and talk about it as a group ON THAT HOLE! Then let the cards fall as to who saw what and leave it to the player to make the right decision. Waiting around till the end is always a bad idea. Address it when you see it and that way it's fresh in everyone's mind and you don't have the scapegoat of "I don't remember"

> >

> >

>

> Have to agree you must not play a lot tournaments or your that parent who no one will play with.

>

> You can’t challenge anyone in tournaments without it getting pretty heated. Most cheaters will try and make a scene just the way it is. The also usually have buddies with others too who will make a point to make other tournaments miserable for you.

>

> Second unless you have a witness not related to you in almost every case the tournament director will just go with the cheater. You what it sucks and sometimes it kids who are the winners week in and week out. If you suspect someone is cheating you have to be patient eventually they get caught. Best course of action is make a joke so they know your watching usually stops stuff in the tracks. I would have said make a joke about what they are doing but if your not 100% sure it better to lie low and see if they do it again.

>

>

> Higher up tournaments the less chance and they have officials who catch cheaters but not a US kids event.

Agreed. Cheaters never want to go down in flames and usually create a scene. As a former director, when that stuff sparked up it was usually a sign they were in the wrong. If the person kept an even head when being accused they were either right on the ruling or they accepted the penalty.

I don't how someone could make a tournament miserable for you. I've seen and played a lot of tournament golf. If your worried about that stuff your heads in the wrong place.

Typically if someone is on the repeat offended list of cheating I would pair the people up who I knew would call them on it and also let that player know that the person is a habitual cheater and to keep their eyes open.

Higher up tournaments doesn't save you from cheating. I've seen it at every level.

Not to derail the thread but since we are on the subject of calling out players...

@mattwalterpga , would you call out a junior if you saw him asking his playing partner which club he just hit?

The whole Christina Kim thing got me thinking because I've seen it few times in US Kids tournaments where kids would innocently ask his opponents not to gain advantage or information, but as to be in awe of a good shot.

> @mrshinsa said:

> Not to derail the thread but since we are on the subject of calling out players...

>

> @mattwalterpga , would you call out a junior if you saw him asking his playing partner which club he just hit?

>

> The whole Christina Kim thing got me thinking because I've seen it few times in US Kids tournaments where kids would innocently ask his opponents not to gain advantage or information, but as to be in awe of a good shot.

Yes I would because I had it done to me and I’ve called it on others. Granted it was 20 years ago but I was doing it back then.

@mattwalterpga

The reason I say cheater’s can make you life miserable is some of the worst offenders have a few friends out there who always back them up and if you out their little game the friends will ultimately challenge you in a future event.

Nothing worse then having a group who mission is to argue on every hole about rules and look for ways to run you off or descredit you.

I worry less about higher up tournaments because there are lot more eye balls on everyone. But I agree it can happen anywhere.

> @tiger1873 said:

> @mattwalterpga

>

> The reason I say cheater’s can make you life miserable is some of the worst offenders have a few friends out there who always back them up and if you out their little game the friends will ultimately challenge you in a future event.

>

> Nothing worse then having a group who mission is to argue on every hole about rules and look for ways to run you off or descredit you.

>

> I worry less about higher up tournaments because there are lot more eye balls on everyone. But I agree it can happen anywhere.

Yea that’s unfortunate. But I mean if u know the rules and stuff like that doesn’t hurt your feelings then let them stress over it. They’re wasting their energy on that crap. I refuse to.

Had a situation this year at a US Kids state tournament where on the first hole one of the girls playing with my daughter hit her tee shot left in the water. We all saw the ball go in the water. I physically saw the splash. The starter even said “that is wet” after she hit the shot. We preceded to my daughter’s ball to play her shot. I never walked over to the girls ball because I saw it go in the water. When we get to the green the girls father (caddie) says she has a 5 when I know she has a six. I told him he forgot to account for the ball in the water and he claims they found it. We get to the next hole and the girl is playing a different ball than what she did on the first hole. When we got in and told our story to the official, he called in and got a ruling. Because we didn’t walk over the physically see that her ball went in the water, we had to take her word on it.

> @Golfingdawg19 said:

> Had a situation this year at a US Kids state tournament where on the first hole one of the girls playing with my daughter hit her tee shot left in the water. We all saw the ball go in the water. I physically saw the splash. The starter even said “that is wet” after she hit the shot. We preceded to my daughter’s ball to play her shot. I never walked over to the girls ball because I saw it go in the water. When we get to the green the girls father (caddie) says she has a 5 when I know she has a six. I told him he forgot to account for the ball in the water and he claims they found it. We get to the next hole and the girl is playing a different ball than what she did on the first hole. When we got in and told our story to the official, he called in and got a ruling. Because we didn’t walk over the physically see that her ball went in the water, we had to take her word on it.

Someone should pull her scholarship offer.

> @Golfingdawg19 said:

> Had a situation this year at a US Kids state tournament where on the first hole one of the girls playing with my daughter hit her tee shot left in the water. We all saw the ball go in the water. I physically saw the splash. The starter even said “that is wet” after she hit the shot. We preceded to my daughter’s ball to play her shot. I never walked over to the girls ball because I saw it go in the water. When we get to the green the girls father (caddie) says she has a 5 when I know she has a six. I told him he forgot to account for the ball in the water and he claims they found it. We get to the next hole and the girl is playing a different ball than what she did on the first hole. When we got in and told our story to the official, he called in and got a ruling. Because we didn’t walk over the physically see that her ball went in the water, we had to take her word on it.

That’s a tough deal. But the officials right. Which is why u have to go over to the other player any time they might be taking a drop or in a penalty area. It’s a pain but ultimately u have to make sure they’re following the rules. Unfortunately we can’t always trust people to do the right thing but since I play for money I’m making sure anyone in my group isn’t going to endanger the integrity of the field by cheating. You see it on tour a lot. See example of Keegan Bradley and Jimenez incident!

Things got a little off track ----- Kekoa, I guess I can't figure out your "standing" to make the inquiry. Were you caddying? Whether caddying or just spectator does either role allow you to approach a player and inquire about a possible rules violation? I'm assuming without knowing the tourney had some guidelines to follow about lodging rules claims that would also cover who/when/how?

Anyway, I think you did the right thing by doing nothing based on what you described, like was said, didn't seem like you really saw anything (definite at least) so didn't happen would be the side to err on, IMO. And if he did cheat, he got his punishment, lol.

More importantly - sounds like a great accomplishment for your son and a great time for you both! What course, btw?

Ignore it. Use the opportunity to remind your kid about following the rules and the spirit of the game etc and how proud you are that they follow the rules.

Instruct your kid what to do in the future In the older divisions if they witness a rule violation.

> @Golfingdawg19 said:

> Had a situation this year at a US Kids state tournament where on the first hole one of the girls playing with my daughter hit her tee shot left in the water. We all saw the ball go in the water. I physically saw the splash. The starter even said “that is wet” after she hit the shot. We preceded to my daughter’s ball to play her shot. I never walked over to the girls ball because I saw it go in the water. When we get to the green the girls father (caddie) says she has a 5 when I know she has a six. I told him he forgot to account for the ball in the water and he claims they found it. We get to the next hole and the girl is playing a different ball than what she did on the first hole. When we got in and told our story to the official, he called in and got a ruling. Because we didn’t walk over the physically see that her ball went in the water, we had to take her word on it.

I noticed that with US kids and even local pga junior sections they tend to take the offenders word. My take is they are trying be more inclusive and let kids play how they want to. (Not saying this good just how it it seems to be run)

That doesn’t always happen with other tours. I just sort of accepted that fact that we are simply not playing high enough level tournaments and the tour that allow people to cheat are not that serious.

I really like AJGA they have a lot officials watching and county. The few HJGT are the same and seem like there watching. The fact that these events have live scoring seems to help. Stuff still goes on but it not so easy to get away with stuff and the scores tend to be higher at these events.

Sorry, but parents should not be on the golf course with the kids during tournament play.

> @Fairway14 said:

> Sorry, but parents should not be on the golf course with the kids during tournament play.

At certain ages they need to have a parent around.

> @mattwalterpga said:

> > @Golfingdawg19 said:

> > Had a situation this year at a US Kids state tournament where on the first hole one of the girls playing with my daughter hit her tee shot left in the water. We all saw the ball go in the water. I physically saw the splash. The starter even said “that is wet” after she hit the shot. We preceded to my daughter’s ball to play her shot. I never walked over to the girls ball because I saw it go in the water. When we get to the green the girls father (caddie) says she has a 5 when I know she has a six. I told him he forgot to account for the ball in the water and he claims they found it. We get to the next hole and the girl is playing a different ball than what she did on the first hole. When we got in and told our story to the official, he called in and got a ruling. Because we didn’t walk over the physically see that her ball went in the water, we had to take her word on it.

>

> That’s a tough deal. But the officials right. Which is why u have to go over to the other player any time they might be taking a drop or in a penalty area. It’s a pain but ultimately u have to make sure they’re following the rules. Unfortunately we can’t always trust people to do the right thing but since I play for money I’m making sure anyone in my group isn’t going to endanger the integrity of the field by cheating. You see it on tour a lot. See example of Keegan Bradley and Jimenez incident!

They saw the splash no need to see if it didn’t go in as it was obvious to the group that it did.

Parents do it all the time in younger events and get away with it. When we first did tournament golf I use wonder why my Kid was the only kid that had bad bounces into water. Learned pretty quick that there not that lucky and my kid wasn’t as unlucky as they made out. Had my wife go ahead and watch without them knowing and she seen another parent kick my kids ball into the water.

> @chrissdc said:

> Ignore it. Use the opportunity to remind your kid about following the rules and the spirit of the game etc and how proud you are that they follow the rules.

> Instruct your kid what to do in the future In the older divisions if they witness a rule violation.

Bad Advice.