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Need help understanding Flo true shaft read below please


scctx5r

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New here guys I need some help I just recently purchased a new driver shaft and this will be the first driver shaft I will have that is Flo true? How does the flo work and how is it positioned I understand that it's pretty much spine alignment but how do I use the FLO to give my self the supposed added benefit of a Flo true shaft? Does the spine face the target direction ? Please someone help explain. The shaft I bought is a new tour ad VR 6x. Please need the knowledge

Thanks in advance

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> @scctx5r said:

> New here guys I need some help I just recently purchased a new driver shaft and this will be the first driver shaft I will have that is Flo true? How does the flo work and how is it positioned I understand that it's pretty much spine alignment but how do I use the FLO to give my self the supposed added benefit of a Flo true shaft? Does the spine face the target direction ? Please someone help explain. The shaft I bought is a new tour ad VR 6x. Please need the knowledge

> Thanks in advance

 

You will have to ask the seller how the shaft is marked, like most other issues with Golf equipment there is no standard.

I FLO shafts on a horizontal axis, and the FLO line markers is set 12 o clock so i can align the shaft with the face angle of the club, but i cant answer for how others do it, and how they set the marks, only the one who did it can tell. (PS! forget SPINE, FLO is flat oscillation line or the position the shaft moves back and forward on a line thats strait without wobble)

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> @scctx5r said:

> I understand that it's pretty much spine alignment but how do I use the FLO to give my self the supposed added benefit of a Flo true shaft?

 

It's only spine alignment if the person finding the FLO line actually made the effort with a frequency meter to make sure it was the spine. All shafts will FLO on both the strongest axis (spine) and the weakest axis (NBP) and only a frequency meter can tell which is which. Lots of people who fine flo axis don't understand that. And if they only found one FLO axis and marked it, than the line is meaningless and should be ignored.

 

If they did actually verify the marked FLO axis was the spine, then they should also be able to give you the amount of asymmetry in the shaft. That's the difference in frequency between the two axis. If there is any potential benefit to a particular alignment, it will be dependent on that amount of asymmetry. If the amount of asymmetry is not significant (not uncommon with more modern shafts), then the benefit to any particular alignment will also be insignificant.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but "FLO True" sounds like some marketing BS someone made up. If it actually means something useful, you'll have to ask the seller.

 

As for how to align it, there is a lot of differing opinions and theories and even controversy - but most have very little in the way of actual scientific validation to back any of them up. There is even a lot of controversy whether there is any benefit at all to finding the spine at all.

 

If you want to read up a bit more on the subject, I find Tutelman's tutorial a great place to start.

There are several pages - think 6 or more, use the right/left arrows near the top of the page to advance back and forth.

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/allAboutSpines1.php

 

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Thanks Stuart_G the shaft was purchased through tpc Wakefield plantation which is a very reputable and there had been a few nationwide tour tourneys held there irs super hella nice. Obviously I understand thats meaningless I would imagine the head club builder there knows his stuff. I haven't picked the shaft up yet I just went for my fitting just this past week and the shaft(s) and other equipment I was fitted for is being delivered today supposed to today. Do you have any suggestions on questions to ask about this FLO true that would helpe and you understand what exactly was done so I can report back to you what was said?

Thanks for your help and the info link was super helpful and your response was appreciated greatly.

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Howard I responded to Stuart if you read that same applies to you buddy. So basically when I go have the guy explain what he did to the shafts, how the shaft was marked. The shaft is coming ready to go meaning cut to length gripped and tipped with adapter. So I'm guessing I should be able to just put it in the head on the setting I was fitted into and I should be good to go. Are there any benefits to this Flo spine alignment and pureing ?

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You need to ask what "Flo true" actually means. My immediate reaction was that they were probably using FLO to simply quality control their shafts, and "Flo true" might be their way of expressing that a shaft meets their quality control criteria in some way. If there are no markings on the shaft, then that would lend a bit of credence to this.

 

This is all hypothetical, of course, and the only way to find out what they really mean by "Flo true" is to ask them!

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> @scctx5r said:

> Do you have any suggestions on questions to ask about this FLO true that would helpe and you understand what exactly was done so I can report back to you what was said?

 

The general concepts of FLO, spines, and related are frequently misunderstood even among experienced builders and fitters so I wouldn't assume anything about what they may or may not know. The only way to find out is ask for as many details of how the shaft was tested as they are willing to give. Personally I'd ask for the strong and weak axis frequencies as a minimum. Was it tested with or without the grip on? Before or after the shaft was cut to the desired length?

 

 

> @scctx5r said:

> The shaft is coming ready to go meaning cut to length gripped and tipped with adapter. So I'm guessing I should be able to just put it in the head on the setting I was fitted into and I should be good to go.

 

If that's the case, then they are choosing the axis alignment for you, you wont have any to do anything with the FLO results. Do they even know your preferred setting so they can align the axis to that setting? In most adapter designs, changing the hosel setting will also change the shaft orientation and therefore how the identified axis is aligned. Callaway is the only one where the shaft orientation doesn't change with the hosel setting - but it's still dictated by the orientation of the adapter when it's installed.

 

 

 

 

 

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Stuart_G yes they made sure when they fitted me that they had all my specs including adapter settings the deal was my first driver and wood shaft fitting. I got my 718 CB from the same place fitted and they pured those shafts in my irons. Which what my understanding was being done toy new shafts for my driver and 3 wood. They made sure that the setting I was gonna use I wouldn't really change on the adapter for the main reason is this " Flo True" I do remember them telling me that the shaft would be Flo oriented into the setting that produced the best numbers during my fit which was in my epic flash subzero triple diamond TC. 10* head dropped to 9.3 true loft fave 1.3 open. I

 

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Shaft question check list

1 what exactly they did to the shaft(s)

2 what exactly Flo True is

3 are both axis identified and marked and in correct position for my fitted specs

4 both axis frequencys

Am I missing anything Guys?

The Flo true and pureing was a extra 35$ each on both my new shafts which isn't bad I guess just wanna make sure after spending all the coin I just kicked out for my new tour ad shafts I'm getting what I paid for and not just some marketing crap. I will say I noticed a huge difference in dispersion and consistent yardage with my iron shafts being pured.

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> @scctx5r said:

> Shaft question check list

> 1 what exactly they did to the shaft(s)

> 2 what exactly Flo True is

> 3 are both axis identified and marked and in correct position for my fitted specs

> 4 both axis frequencys

> Am I missing anything Guys?

> The Flo true and pureing was a extra 35$ each on both my new shafts which isn't bad I guess just wanna make sure after spending all the coin I just kicked out for my new tour ad shafts I'm getting what I paid for and not just some marketing crap. I will say I noticed a huge difference in dispersion and consistent yardage with my iron shafts being pured.

 

Since they added a term "true" i have no idea what they mean, but most shafts has 2 good FLO line, 1 weak and 1 strong and they are in most cases 90* apart.,

We DONT want a shaft where the difference between the weak and strong is large, the norm is up to 3 CPM on shafts we consider "good". IF its much more than that, the shaft has asymmetrical behavior depending on how we install it, but its per definition NOT legal to take advantage of it for ball flight or shot shape reasons....

 

This FLO lines is in most cases about 90* apart, so when we have found the first, we turn it directly 90* (12 to 3 o clock) and start search for the next.

There is tons of myths and "opinions" about "shaft aligning" in general, but i used it as a quality check to make sure the shaft i installed was as equal as possible on measured flex as the shaft used during fitting.

If FLO itself has a effect for how good we are able to make impact to the ball.....a big "maybe" at least it want hurt your ability to make a good impact, but other parameters like the shafts length, weight, balance point and feel will always be the most important, so i never saw it as anything but a quality test to make sure i knew what shaft i installed.

 

Depending on the connector (if thats the kind of head/shaft you got), some of them will "mess up" this FLO job when you adjust, others move between the strong and weak (look at the grip logo and see if it move 90*), and some is adjusted without turning the shaft only the cogs. Im no longer up to date with how they all works, and they was always different, so you have to get to know yours and how that one work when you use the adjustments the hosel offers.

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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FLO true sounds like the people who you are buying your equipment from were too cheap to buy a PUREing machine and decided instead to slap some buzz words together and sell that snake oil while still charging you PUREing level prices. Most club makers I know (if they do believe FLO and Spine finding holds any credence) don't charge or minimally charge for that service as part of a build price.

 

Now I can't blame them for not buying a PUREing machine as PUREing is an incredibly questionable service at best.

I think Howard mentioned that getting a shaft will minimal hard to soft side cpms would limit the "benefits" of these processes. I will just say, finding shafts with minimal hard to soft side measurements is what you should be looking for, especially when spending over $300 for a shaft. Tech is plenty good at this point that shaft OEMs can produce shafts with this level of consistency and definitely at a $300 price point. If you have a shaft with larger hard to soft differences, that's just a bad shaft. You can PURE, Spine, FLO, and have a unicorn pee on it, none of these things will change that fact.

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> @"Adam C" said:

> FLO true sounds like the people who you are buying your equipment from were too cheap to buy a PUREing machine and decided instead to slap some buzz words together and sell that snake oil while still charging you PUREing level prices. Most club makers I know (if they do believe FLO and Spine finding holds any credence) don't charge or minimally charge for that service as part of a build price.

>

> Now I can't blame them for not buying a PUREing machine as PUREing is an incredibly questionable service at best.

> I think Howard mentioned that getting a shaft will minimal hard to soft side cpms would limit the "benefits" of these processes. I will just say, finding shafts with minimal hard to soft side measurements is what you should be looking for, especially when spending over $300 for a shaft. Tech is plenty good at this point that shaft OEMs can produce shafts with this level of consistency and definitely at a $300 price point. If you have a shaft with larger hard to soft differences, that's just a bad shaft. You can PURE, Spine, FLO, and have a unicorn pee on it, none of these things will change that fact.

 

Dont get it wrong, but without a CPM test on both the weak and strong side, we really dont know if the shaft we have at hand is symmetrical or not, so thats why ive always done it. Ive also seen shafts where the symmetry is good, but flex itself way off, and again, without this test we simply dont know. The reason for finding the FLO lines is simply because we get a "better reading" when the shaft behavior is good. If the shaft wobbles like crazy the return values will vary from test to test on the same shaft.

 

Look at this shafts, ive posted this before. Take a look at the Grafalloy TOUR, the second one...Noting wrong with symmetry (max 4 CPM), but that shaft is almost just as strong as the same model as X flex you find below, so if shaft 1 was used during fitting, and shaft 2 was delivered, the customer would not be happy. But.... its always those players who feel that 1 flex is a bit soft, and the next a bit too strong, and then this shaft would be perfect. In this chart ive measured CPM first with Label up/Down, and then the 2 FLO lines. Some shafts has good FLO label Up/down, others not, so at the worse, i found 12 CPM or more than 1 flex class from softest to strongest FLO line within the same shaft model.

 

ne61rru5w5zg.png

 

 

 

.

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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> @"Adam C" said:

> ****FLO true sounds like the people who you are buying your equipment from were too cheap to buy a PUREing machine and decided instead to slap some buzz words together and sell that snake oil while still charging you PUREing level prices. Most club makers I know (if they do believe FLO and Spine finding holds any credence) don't charge or minimally charge for that service as part of a build price. **

> **

> Now I can't blame them for not buying a PUREing machine as PUREing is an incredibly questionable service at best.

> I think Howard mentioned that getting a shaft will minimal hard to soft side cpms would limit the "benefits" of these processes. I will just say, finding shafts with minimal hard to soft side measurements is what you should be looking for, especially when spending over $300 for a shaft. Tech is plenty good at this point that shaft OEMs can produce shafts with this level of consistency and definitely at a $300 price point. If you have a shaft with larger hard to soft differences, that's just a bad shaft. You can PURE, Spine, FLO, and have a unicorn pee on it, none of these things will change that fact.

 

I would hope they are doing a laser FLO which is a proven method. Otherwise they are bastardizing some words together.

 

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I picked my shafts up today. basically just had never heard or had a driver shaft or wood shaft the was pured only iron shafts. The guy explained it all to me today the shafts were what he called frequency tuned and the axis were found and both marked. They used all the days from my shaft fitting. What I got from the club builder at TPC Wakefield plantation was the shafts were pured , Flo he also called it truing not sure If that's spelled right. I haven't hit them yet going to when I get home on the mevo. Just want to say thanks to everyone that gave me some great info and advice I feel the extra service paid for on that shafts will be worth it and price was fairly minimal at 35$ per shaft. Thanks again guys

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> @Stuart_G said:

> > @JCAG said:

> > At $35.00 per club, they should have been SST Pured. If not.....

> >

>

> At that price they should be gold plated. That price is ridiculous even for SST Pure'ing.

>

>

 

Agree, pricing is crazy.

If i had a large box of shafts, i could probably FLO and mark, 20-25 shafts pr hour, ...while smoking, drinking coffee and take the needed notes.

20 shafts x 35 USD each = 700 USD pr hour.

 

Years go fast, but i think i had 85 DKK, about 12 USD included in my price list as a component of "assemble" who included FLO and flex matching.

Retail is 1100 DKK or 162 USD for a Vokey wedge as compare

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @Stuart_G said:

> > > @JCAG said:

> > > At $35.00 per club, they should have been SST Pured. If not.....

> > >

> >

> > At that price they should be gold plated. That price is ridiculous even for SST Pure'ing.

> >

> >

>

> Agree, pricing is crazy.

> If i had a large box of shafts, i could probably FLO and mark, 20-25 shafts pr hour, ...while smoking, drinking coffee and take the needed notes.

> 20 shafts x 35 USD each = 700 USD pr hour.

>

> Years go fast, but i think i had 85 DKK, about 12 USD included in my price list for "assemble" who included FLO and flex matching and retail is 1100 DKK or 162 USD for a Vokey wedge as compare

 

$35 per shaft - ouch! That is one hell of an upcharge (£27) on a shaft for what is a fairly basic and easy service. I just add £3 to a build to FLO, mark and align (to the customer's desires) for a shaft.

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> @JCAG said:

> Not to defend the pricing but the SST Puring machine cost money plus the user had to pay a royalty everytime they put a shaft in the machine. Not sure if that still exists but the going price for SST Puring is $35.00 per shaft. Got to pay for the machine and the royalty.

>

> No cost other than time to laser FLO.

 

If you want to FLO a shaft with CPM reading, you have to buy a CPM reader, so thats not for free either.

The Digiflex cost 699 USD now as one example, the SST PURE machine is 1.495 USD or twice as much, the fee to SST used to be 10 for each shaft, but again, the equipment to FLO shafts aint for free.either.

 

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I can see that SST Pure now has updated their webpage and list names for each year who has been using their service. They would not dare to do so if that was not the facts. Many top names on that list.

http://sstpure.com/pro-players/

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> @JCAG said:

> Not to defend the pricing but the SST Puring machine cost money plus the user had to pay a royalty everytime they put a shaft in the machine. Not sure if that still exists but the going price for SST Puring is $35.00 per shaft. Got to pay for the machine and the royalty.

>

 

Not sure where you got your "going rate" from. But Golfworks.com only charges $19.50 for SST PUREing services. Not saying I know anything about SST's policies but $35 seems to me like a pretty big mark-up.

 

And on a secondary note, I would have thought the patent is old enough to have expired.

 

EDIT: Apparently not. The only patent I found for Richard Weiss on shaft alignment is expected to expire in Feb 2020. So in theory shouldn't be any more royalties after that.

 

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> @Stuart_G said:

> > @JCAG said:

> > Not to defend the pricing but the SST Puring machine cost money plus the user had to pay a royalty everytime they put a shaft in the machine. Not sure if that still exists but the going price for SST Puring is $35.00 per shaft. Got to pay for the machine and the royalty.

> >

>

> Not sure where you got your "going rate" from. But Golfworks.com only charges $19.50 for SST PUREing services. Not saying I know anything about SST's policies but $35 seems to me like a pretty big mark-up.

>

> And on a secondary note, I would have thought the patent is old enough to have expired.

>

> EDIT: Apparently not. The only patent I found for Richard Weiss on shaft alignment is expected to expire in Feb 2020. So in theory shouldn't be any more royalties after that.

>

 

And that is where I buy my shafts from. I have them SST Pure the shafts for my driver and fairway woods. I laser FLO the other shafts myself.

 

My bottom line with SST Pured and laser FLOed shafts is it makes them more consistent in behavior and feel. Good enough for me.

 

I personally know Dick Weiss from when he originally introduced SST Puring. He showed me the letter from the USGA when he went after them after they originally rejected his request. He is an interesting and knowledgeable guy.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> I can see that SST Pure now has updated their webpage and list names for each year who has been using their service. They would not dare to do so if that was not the facts. Many top names on that list.

> http://sstpure.com/pro-players/

 

Big difference here is that no one on that list paid for the service most likely. If I am a pro golfer, and let's be honest they can be bamboozled by snake oil salesmen just like the rest of us, then someone claiming this will improve your game for free, and worst case won't make it worse, not surprising you can build up a pretty good roster of so called believers.

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> @"Adam C" said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > I can see that SST Pure now has updated their webpage and list names for each year who has been using their service. They would not dare to do so if that was not the facts. Many top names on that list.

> > http://sstpure.com/pro-players/

>

> Big difference here is that no one on that list paid for the service most likely. If I am a pro golfer, and let's be honest they can be bamboozled by snake oil salesmen just like the rest of us, then someone claiming this will improve your game for free, and worst case won't make it worse, not surprising you can build up a pretty good roster of so called believers.

 

LOL, tell me Adam, how do you know that? did you ask them?...or did you work on the SST Pure tour van truck and got fired since no money came in :-)

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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  • 1 month later...

This topic has my interest since I'm doing several builds with shaft experimentation and nailing ideal mass & flex profiles.

I've seen how spine alignment is determined but a good magnifier w/lighting will give you seam of shaft when you look internally on it. I understand there is dubious value in attaining it and greater question of where one sets that spine. My instinct is that the welded seam is strongest area of shaft and that if I was to set it, I would do it in line with the CG of head via allowing head to set freely by gravity and then align spine 180* to that. So the net in your hands is spine is slightly rotated CW to a squared up club which is differing from MO of most.

Questions for knowledgeable on spine align & FLO:

Can laser FLO be determined with an old Brunswick frequency analyzer?

If I did both spine and FLO would I not be doing exactly what SST does? I've had a SST Pured driver and got to say it was one of the best I ever carried and may just shell out for all metals to be done that way. For irons, I'm looking to minimize variances and optimize build quality, so less than perfect SOP is okay there.

Thanks for any input.

 

 

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Nard...this may be way off, but it is what I have learned from WRX over the years. Both steel & graphite shafts will have a dominate spine. I have a good "spine" finder for that. So with the spine perpendicular to the club face.....if the spine is aligned in front of the club face is more on the side of a distance gain. If the spine is placed behind the club face it is more on the side of an accuracy gain.. One has to find the spine before the FLO can be determined & also the decision of distance vs accuracy placement of the spine. The flow is determined by "twanging" the shaft. For this there are specific items made to attach on the end of the shaft. I am cheap so this is my process. Take an old zip lock bag & cut it into strips that you can wrap around the end of the shaft. This is done to place the club head on to hold it securely for the twanging of the shaft. The head has to lined straight up & down to the horizon. I have a bright white background that I will set a 2 foot level on for the horizon. Then twang the shaft & you are trying to get it so the shaft will oscillate even with the horizontal level. This is done by a slight rotation of the spine either up or down from the original perpendicular line to the club face.

Hope this makes some sense to you. It is a lot of trial and error in doing this, so patience is a key. Just in the way you twang the shaft can produce a different result. Plus have some old carpet or something underneath in case the head goes flying off...usually does not go far because not much "Twanging" is needed. There are many things you can buy to help in this, but I am cheap so I just found a way to attempt to accomplish the same thing. For me...no idea if it makes much difference. My thinking is the game is difficult enough, so I will at least try it. I believe SST uses a specific weight for every shaft. I kind of like the idea of having the actual club head for the weight.

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We need a CPM reader (what ever type) to find whats the strong vs the weak FLO line and to see how symmetric or asymmetrical the shaft at hand is.

I dont know enough about PURE to compare that to FLO, but the few PURED shafts ive seen was all marked like it was the weak FLO line target line, but that might be a coincident.

 

For steel shafts, heat treatment removes any stress to the welding seem, so dont expect that line to be the stiffest, something you would be able to see with a CPM reader.

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      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

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