Power on the PGA Tour......

Can someone supply me with a list of golf courses that is now obsolete due to the power of this new crop of tour players....please add a reason as to why you think that your list is unplayable by todays touring pros.

Are we getting paid for doing your research? :)

> @Soloman1 said:

> Are we getting paid for doing your research? :)

Just having a discussion....If you have nothing to add, thanks for your comedy.

In reality, Pebble Beach is too short for today's touring pros.

There, I said it.

Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

As long as it's a stroke play competition, there aren't going to any courses that are too short to be played. Match play things may be different if you go too short, but there's not going to be a ton of places they are going to take a Tour event that would ever have that issue. Now, when you start talking about hosting an event, there's the other side of things when it comes to actually putting the fans out there with the hospitality tents, grandstands, restrooms, food, etc. but that is a different discussion.

Not a direct answer but I know that Oakland Hills CC outside of Detroit is renovating it's famed South Course to upgrade a few things in addition to making it longer for the longer players on Tour. This is information came to me 2nd from a member but there seems to be articles that confirm this too.

> @gvogel said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

>

> When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

Cypress Point

Fishers Island

Crystal Downs

Pacific Dunes

Camargo

Maidstone

Essex County

Myopia

Montecito

Pasatiempo

The Creek

Eastward Ho!

St. Louis

Fox Chapel

Fairfield

A thread closes, another thread opens....

I would enjoy watching the leaders at CP playing #16 with the wind blowing.

> @LICC said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> >

> > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

>

> I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

>

> Cypress Point

> Fishers Island

> Crystal Downs

> Pacific Dunes

> Camargo

> Maidstone

> Essex County

> Myopia

> Montecito

> Pasatiempo

> The Creek

> Eastward Ho!

> St. Louis

> Fox Chapel

> Fairfield

>

I hear that Crystal Downs is a wonderful golf course.

No slouches on that list, as well.

Looks like the winter season is coming a little early here... I'm looking forward to the next 4-5 months of pointless threads. Yippeeeeeee!!

These are all probably too short.

Top 25 short courses according to Golf Advisor ratings and reviews

25. Winding Hills Golf Club

Montgomery, N.Y.

2,595 yards | 18 holes | Par 57

24. Par-3 Course at Hollybrook Golf & Tennis Club

Pembroke Pines, Fla.

1,599 yards | 18 holes | Par 54

23. Oasis Country Club

Palm Desert, Calif.

3,489 yards | 18 holes | Par 60

22. Mountain Course at Incline Village

Incline Village, Calif.

3,527 yards | 18 holes | Par 58

21. Portland Golf Course West

Portland, Conn.

4,012 yards | 18 holes | Par 60

20. Tooth Course at Orange County National

Winter Garden, Fla.

1,563 yards | 9 holes | Par 29

19. Canyon Mesa Country Club

Sedona, Ariz.

1,450 yards | 9 holes | Par 28

18. Audubon Park Golf Course

New Orleans

4,220 yards | 18 holes | Par 62

17. Heritage of Hawk Ridge

Lake St. Louis, Mo.

1,526 yards | 9 holes | 1,526 yards

16. Huron Shores Golf Course

Port Sanilac, Mich.

5,428 yards | 18 holes | Par 72

15. Challenge Course at Eagle Crest Resort

Redmond, Ore.

4,175 yards | 18 holes | Par 63

14. Williams Creek Golf Course

Knoxville, Tenn.

2,718 yards | Par 54 | 18 holes

13. Squirrel Run Country Club

Plymouth, Mass.

2,809 yards | 18 holes | Par 57

12. Palm Royale Country Club

La Quinta, Calif.

1,992 yards | 18 holes | Par 54

11. Little Harbor Country Club

Wareham, Mass.

3,038 yards | 18 holes | Par 56

10. Crane Lakes Golf & Country Club

Port Orange, Fla.

5,025 yards | 18 holes | Par 72

9. Colina Park Golf Course

San Diego

1,250 yards | 18 holes | Par 54

8. Par-3 Course at Mill Creek Golf Club

Churchville, N.Y.

1,535 yards | 9 holes | Par 27

7. Threetops at Treetops Resort

Gaylord, Mich.

1,435 yards | 9 holes | Par 27

6. The Club at Yarmouth Port at Kings Way

Yarmouth Port, Mass.

3,911 yards | 18 holes | Par 60

5. Terranea Golf Club

Rancho Palos Verdes, Calif.

1,239 yards | 9 holes | Par 27

4. Louisquisset Golf Club

North Providence, R.I.

2,606 yards | Par 34

3. Palm Beach Par 3

Palm Beach, Fla.

2,572 yards | 18 holes | Par 54

2. Barn Hollow at Hawk's View Golf Club

Lake Geneva, Wis.

2,708 yards | 18 holes | Par 54

1. Hideaway Country Club

Fort Myers, Fla.

5,146 yards | 18 holes | Par 67

> @LICC said:

> > @gvogel said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> >

> > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

>

> I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

>

> Cypress Point

> Fishers Island

> Crystal Downs

> Pacific Dunes

> Camargo

> Maidstone

> Essex County

> Myopia

> Montecito

> Pasatiempo

> The Creek

> Eastward Ho!

> St. Louis

> Fox Chapel

> Fairfield

>

Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

> @farmer said:

> I would enjoy watching the leaders at CP playing #16 with the wind blowing.

Agreed for that one hole. Except all the leaders would be at -25 or better in the final round at that point.

I'd be curious to know which courses that have hosted a PGA event have gotten the boot for being considered obsolete.

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> > >

> > > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

> >

> > I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

> >

> > Cypress Point

> > Fishers Island

> > Crystal Downs

> > Pacific Dunes

> > Camargo

> > Maidstone

> > Essex County

> > Myopia

> > Montecito

> > Pasatiempo

> > The Creek

> > Eastward Ho!

> > St. Louis

> > Fox Chapel

> > Fairfield

> >

>

> Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

> Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

Big difference when it comes to the Tour. 6 par-4s under 400 yards. A par-5 at only 500 yards. Half these guys would be at 5-under every round on these holes alone.

> @oikos1 said:

> I'd be curious to know which courses that have hosted a PGA event have gotten the boot for being considered obsolete.

That's a fantastic question. Off the top of my head, I know guys were going pretty low at Indian Wells and Bermuda Dunes at the Bob Hope. Now, they were just preliminary round sites. IDK if those courses were discontinued due to the lack of length, the lack of difficulty, or just because the Tour wanted to showcase other courses. If you've played either IWCC or BDCC, you'll note that there isn't a lot of room on them, so maybe that had something to do with it. I'd be very interested to see a list of courses that were discontinued specifically because they are too short.

> @LICC said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> > > >

> > > > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

> > >

> > > I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

> > >

> > > Cypress Point

> > > Fishers Island

> > > Crystal Downs

> > > Pacific Dunes

> > > Camargo

> > > Maidstone

> > > Essex County

> > > Myopia

> > > Montecito

> > > Pasatiempo

> > > The Creek

> > > Eastward Ho!

> > > St. Louis

> > > Fox Chapel

> > > Fairfield

> > >

> >

> > Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

> > Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

>

> Big difference when it comes to the Tour. 6 par-4s under 400 yards. A par-5 at only 500 yards. Half these guys would be at 5-under every round on these holes alone.

Ha! I'll go out on a limb and guess you've never played it. First, 6500 yards on the West Coast (the actual coast) isn't equivalent to 6500 yards on the East Coast. Not even close. Second, there's a bit more to the course than the length. If it had the room to host a PGA Tour event, I would bet my house that it wouldn't be the lowest winning score relative to par on tour.

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> > > > >

> > > > > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

> > > >

> > > > I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

> > > >

> > > > Cypress Point

> > > > Fishers Island

> > > > Crystal Downs

> > > > Pacific Dunes

> > > > Camargo

> > > > Maidstone

> > > > Essex County

> > > > Myopia

> > > > Montecito

> > > > Pasatiempo

> > > > The Creek

> > > > Eastward Ho!

> > > > St. Louis

> > > > Fox Chapel

> > > > Fairfield

> > > >

> > >

> > > Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

> > > Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

> >

> > Big difference when it comes to the Tour. 6 par-4s under 400 yards. A par-5 at only 500 yards. Half these guys would be at 5-under every round on these holes alone.

>

> Ha! I'll go out on a limb and guess you've never played it. First, 6500 yards on the West Coast (the actual coast) isn't equivalent to 6500 yards on the East Coast. Not even close. Second, there's a bit more to the course than the length. If it had the room to host a PGA Tour event, I would bet my house that it wouldn't be the lowest winning score relative to par on tour.

I think you are really stretching on that one! These guys hit it really far and dial in their wedges really close on either coast. Whether it would be the lowest score to par on the whole Tour or not isn't the deciding factor. Whether it has enough length to provide enough of a challenge to be a respectable PGA Tour event is the question.

> @LICC said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

> > > > >

> > > > > Cypress Point

> > > > > Fishers Island

> > > > > Crystal Downs

> > > > > Pacific Dunes

> > > > > Camargo

> > > > > Maidstone

> > > > > Essex County

> > > > > Myopia

> > > > > Montecito

> > > > > Pasatiempo

> > > > > The Creek

> > > > > Eastward Ho!

> > > > > St. Louis

> > > > > Fox Chapel

> > > > > Fairfield

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

> > > > Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

> > >

> > > Big difference when it comes to the Tour. 6 par-4s under 400 yards. A par-5 at only 500 yards. Half these guys would be at 5-under every round on these holes alone.

> >

> > Ha! I'll go out on a limb and guess you've never played it. First, 6500 yards on the West Coast (the actual coast) isn't equivalent to 6500 yards on the East Coast. Not even close. Second, there's a bit more to the course than the length. If it had the room to host a PGA Tour event, I would bet my house that it wouldn't be the lowest winning score relative to par on tour.

>

> I think you are really stretching on that one! These guys hit it really far and dial in their wedges really close on either coast. Whether it would be the lowest score to par on the whole Tour or not isn't the deciding factor. Whether it has enough length to provide enough of a challenge to be a respectable PGA Tour event is the question.

Yeah, maybe. Still, I think it would hold up just fine because it's a great design. It's wild to see certain classic courses still be able to challenge elite level players, and others have to resort to massive changes.

A Sunday pin on #16 at Pasatiempo would be incredible to watch. At 387, it would be iron-wedge, for sure, but that's not the challenge of the hole. If you'd ever tried to clip one off that downslope a precise distance, or be facing almost certain three-putt, you'd know what I'm talking about. Mackenzie's favorite hole on his favorite US course.


> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Cypress Point

> > > > > > Fishers Island

> > > > > > Crystal Downs

> > > > > > Pacific Dunes

> > > > > > Camargo

> > > > > > Maidstone

> > > > > > Essex County

> > > > > > Myopia

> > > > > > Montecito

> > > > > > Pasatiempo

> > > > > > The Creek

> > > > > > Eastward Ho!

> > > > > > St. Louis

> > > > > > Fox Chapel

> > > > > > Fairfield

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

> > > > > Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

> > > >

> > > > Big difference when it comes to the Tour. 6 par-4s under 400 yards. A par-5 at only 500 yards. Half these guys would be at 5-under every round on these holes alone.

> > >

> > > Ha! I'll go out on a limb and guess you've never played it. First, 6500 yards on the West Coast (the actual coast) isn't equivalent to 6500 yards on the East Coast. Not even close. Second, there's a bit more to the course than the length. If it had the room to host a PGA Tour event, I would bet my house that it wouldn't be the lowest winning score relative to par on tour.

> >

> > I think you are really stretching on that one! These guys hit it really far and dial in their wedges really close on either coast. Whether it would be the lowest score to par on the whole Tour or not isn't the deciding factor. Whether it has enough length to provide enough of a challenge to be a respectable PGA Tour event is the question.

>

> Yeah, maybe. Still, I think it would hold up just fine because it's a great design. It's wild to see certain classic courses still be able to challenge elite level players, and others have to resort to massive changes.

> A Sunday pin on #16 at Pasatiempo would be incredible to watch. At 387, it would be iron-wedge, for sure, but that's not the challenge of the hole. If you'd ever tried to clip one off that downslope a precise distance, or be facing almost certain three-putt, you'd know what I'm talking about. Mackenzie's favorite hole on his favorite US course.

>

It is a nice sentiment but not realistic. The shortest course on the Tour now is Seaside at Sea Island, for the RSM Classic. Just over 7,000 yards. It is a great course that I have had the pleasure to play. Terrific design and strategy. Few or none of the top-ranked guys play it. Last year Charles Howell III beat Cameron Champ in a playoff at -19. Take 500 yards off of the course every round and put the top ranked guys in play, and you are talking -30 scores.

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @gvogel said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> > >

> > > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

> >

> > I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

> >

> > Cypress Point

> > Fishers Island

> > Crystal Downs

> > Pacific Dunes

> > Camargo

> > Maidstone

> > Essex County

> > Myopia

> > Montecito

> > Pasatiempo

> > The Creek

> > Eastward Ho!

> > St. Louis

> > Fox Chapel

> > Fairfield

> >

>

> Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

> Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

But was it played in the way Mr. Mackenzie intended? That of course is the most important question

> @LICC said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Cypress Point

> > > > > > > Fishers Island

> > > > > > > Crystal Downs

> > > > > > > Pacific Dunes

> > > > > > > Camargo

> > > > > > > Maidstone

> > > > > > > Essex County

> > > > > > > Myopia

> > > > > > > Montecito

> > > > > > > Pasatiempo

> > > > > > > The Creek

> > > > > > > Eastward Ho!

> > > > > > > St. Louis

> > > > > > > Fox Chapel

> > > > > > > Fairfield

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

> > > > > > Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

> > > > >

> > > > > Big difference when it comes to the Tour. 6 par-4s under 400 yards. A par-5 at only 500 yards. Half these guys would be at 5-under every round on these holes alone.

> > > >

> > > > Ha! I'll go out on a limb and guess you've never played it. First, 6500 yards on the West Coast (the actual coast) isn't equivalent to 6500 yards on the East Coast. Not even close. Second, there's a bit more to the course than the length. If it had the room to host a PGA Tour event, I would bet my house that it wouldn't be the lowest winning score relative to par on tour.

> > >

> > > I think you are really stretching on that one! These guys hit it really far and dial in their wedges really close on either coast. Whether it would be the lowest score to par on the whole Tour or not isn't the deciding factor. Whether it has enough length to provide enough of a challenge to be a respectable PGA Tour event is the question.

> >

> > Yeah, maybe. Still, I think it would hold up just fine because it's a great design. It's wild to see certain classic courses still be able to challenge elite level players, and others have to resort to massive changes.

> > A Sunday pin on #16 at Pasatiempo would be incredible to watch. At 387, it would be iron-wedge, for sure, but that's not the challenge of the hole. If you'd ever tried to clip one off that downslope a precise distance, or be facing almost certain three-putt, you'd know what I'm talking about. Mackenzie's favorite hole on his favorite US course.

> >

>

> It is a nice sentiment but not realistic. The shortest course on the Tour now is Seaside at Sea Island, for the RSM Classic. Just over 7,000 yards. It is a great course that I have had the pleasure to play. Terrific design and strategy. Few or none of the top-ranked guys play it. Last year Charles Howell III beat Cameron Champ in a playoff at -19. Take 500 yards off of the course every round and put the top ranked guys in play, and you are talking -30 scores.

Hmm, I've played that one, too, albeit not from the tips. Pasatiempo was definitely the tougher course, for me anyway. I suppose we can agree to disagree. It would be quite the feat, indeed, for someone to shoot -30 at Pasatiempo when it's slicked up. I think we'd have to cancel the season and give all four majors to whomever accomplished that.

> @Krt22 said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> > > >

> > > > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

> > >

> > > I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

> > >

> > > Cypress Point

> > > Fishers Island

> > > Crystal Downs

> > > Pacific Dunes

> > > Camargo

> > > Maidstone

> > > Essex County

> > > Myopia

> > > Montecito

> > > Pasatiempo

> > > The Creek

> > > Eastward Ho!

> > > St. Louis

> > > Fox Chapel

> > > Fairfield

> > >

> >

> > Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

> > Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

>

> But was it played in the way Mr. Mackenzie intended? That of course is the most important question

Haha! Almost certainly not. But, it has stood the test of time with thick rough, tight driving, pretty soft conditions, and mostly target golf into the greens. Interesting stuff.

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > > > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Cypress Point

> > > > > > > > Fishers Island

> > > > > > > > Crystal Downs

> > > > > > > > Pacific Dunes

> > > > > > > > Camargo

> > > > > > > > Maidstone

> > > > > > > > Essex County

> > > > > > > > Myopia

> > > > > > > > Montecito

> > > > > > > > Pasatiempo

> > > > > > > > The Creek

> > > > > > > > Eastward Ho!

> > > > > > > > St. Louis

> > > > > > > > Fox Chapel

> > > > > > > > Fairfield

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

> > > > > > > Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Big difference when it comes to the Tour. 6 par-4s under 400 yards. A par-5 at only 500 yards. Half these guys would be at 5-under every round on these holes alone.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ha! I'll go out on a limb and guess you've never played it. First, 6500 yards on the West Coast (the actual coast) isn't equivalent to 6500 yards on the East Coast. Not even close. Second, there's a bit more to the course than the length. If it had the room to host a PGA Tour event, I would bet my house that it wouldn't be the lowest winning score relative to par on tour.

> > > >

> > > > I think you are really stretching on that one! These guys hit it really far and dial in their wedges really close on either coast. Whether it would be the lowest score to par on the whole Tour or not isn't the deciding factor. Whether it has enough length to provide enough of a challenge to be a respectable PGA Tour event is the question.

> > >

> > > Yeah, maybe. Still, I think it would hold up just fine because it's a great design. It's wild to see certain classic courses still be able to challenge elite level players, and others have to resort to massive changes.

> > > A Sunday pin on #16 at Pasatiempo would be incredible to watch. At 387, it would be iron-wedge, for sure, but that's not the challenge of the hole. If you'd ever tried to clip one off that downslope a precise distance, or be facing almost certain three-putt, you'd know what I'm talking about. Mackenzie's favorite hole on his favorite US course.

> > >

> >

> > It is a nice sentiment but not realistic. The shortest course on the Tour now is Seaside at Sea Island, for the RSM Classic. Just over 7,000 yards. It is a great course that I have had the pleasure to play. Terrific design and strategy. Few or none of the top-ranked guys play it. Last year Charles Howell III beat Cameron Champ in a playoff at -19. Take 500 yards off of the course every round and put the top ranked guys in play, and you are talking -30 scores.

>

> Hmm, I've played that one, too, albeit not from the tips. Pasatiempo was definitely the tougher course, for me anyway. I suppose we can agree to disagree. It would be quite the feat, indeed, for someone to shoot -30 at Pasatiempo when it's slicked up. I think we'd have to cancel the season and give all four majors to whomever accomplished that.

Pasatiempo from the 6,500 tips is rated 72.5/141. Seaside from the 6,657 tees is rated 72.3/137. So from similar length they are rated very similarly in difficulty.

> @LICC said:

> > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Cypress Point

> > > > > > > > > Fishers Island

> > > > > > > > > Crystal Downs

> > > > > > > > > Pacific Dunes

> > > > > > > > > Camargo

> > > > > > > > > Maidstone

> > > > > > > > > Essex County

> > > > > > > > > Myopia

> > > > > > > > > Montecito

> > > > > > > > > Pasatiempo

> > > > > > > > > The Creek

> > > > > > > > > Eastward Ho!

> > > > > > > > > St. Louis

> > > > > > > > > Fox Chapel

> > > > > > > > > Fairfield

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

> > > > > > > > Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Big difference when it comes to the Tour. 6 par-4s under 400 yards. A par-5 at only 500 yards. Half these guys would be at 5-under every round on these holes alone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ha! I'll go out on a limb and guess you've never played it. First, 6500 yards on the West Coast (the actual coast) isn't equivalent to 6500 yards on the East Coast. Not even close. Second, there's a bit more to the course than the length. If it had the room to host a PGA Tour event, I would bet my house that it wouldn't be the lowest winning score relative to par on tour.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think you are really stretching on that one! These guys hit it really far and dial in their wedges really close on either coast. Whether it would be the lowest score to par on the whole Tour or not isn't the deciding factor. Whether it has enough length to provide enough of a challenge to be a respectable PGA Tour event is the question.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah, maybe. Still, I think it would hold up just fine because it's a great design. It's wild to see certain classic courses still be able to challenge elite level players, and others have to resort to massive changes.

> > > > A Sunday pin on #16 at Pasatiempo would be incredible to watch. At 387, it would be iron-wedge, for sure, but that's not the challenge of the hole. If you'd ever tried to clip one off that downslope a precise distance, or be facing almost certain three-putt, you'd know what I'm talking about. Mackenzie's favorite hole on his favorite US course.

> > > >

> > >

> > > It is a nice sentiment but not realistic. The shortest course on the Tour now is Seaside at Sea Island, for the RSM Classic. Just over 7,000 yards. It is a great course that I have had the pleasure to play. Terrific design and strategy. Few or none of the top-ranked guys play it. Last year Charles Howell III beat Cameron Champ in a playoff at -19. Take 500 yards off of the course every round and put the top ranked guys in play, and you are talking -30 scores.

> >

> > Hmm, I've played that one, too, albeit not from the tips. Pasatiempo was definitely the tougher course, for me anyway. I suppose we can agree to disagree. It would be quite the feat, indeed, for someone to shoot -30 at Pasatiempo when it's slicked up. I think we'd have to cancel the season and give all four majors to whomever accomplished that.

>

> Pasatiempo from the 6,500 tips is rated 72.5/141. Seaside from the 6,657 tees is rated 72.3/137. So from similar length they are rated very similarly in difficulty.

Yep, they sure are. Having played both from those tees, if you put a gun to my head and told me I had to break the course rating at one or the other under tournament conditions, I'd pick Seaside every single time. I'd maybe even pick Seaside from the tips. Again, that's just my experience having played both courses, and we can agree to disagree.

So are these tests of golf not tournament golf or tournament golf not tests of golf or is someone just trying to pick up on the locked up distance thread with more talk of distance?

Obsolete, lol - are these courses now closed?

> @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @gvogel said:

> > > > > > @"Ashley Schaeffer" said:

> > > > > > Interesting concept. I can't think of a single golf course that is too short to host a competition where the lowest number of strokes wins.

> > > > >

> > > > > When in fact most all of the tour golf courses are insufficient in length to test the world's best players.

> > > >

> > > > I'm taking this as well-known courses that wouldn't be able to provide a decent challenge for a PGA Tour event. Just looking at the Golf Digest Top 200 US:

> > > >

> > > > Cypress Point

> > > > Fishers Island

> > > > Crystal Downs

> > > > Pacific Dunes

> > > > Camargo

> > > > Maidstone

> > > > Essex County

> > > > Myopia

> > > > Montecito

> > > > Pasatiempo

> > > > The Creek

> > > > Eastward Ho!

> > > > St. Louis

> > > > Fox Chapel

> > > > Fairfield

> > > >

> > >

> > > Interesting. I think every course on that list is long enough to host a stroke play event.

> > > Pasatiempo, at 6500 yards, hosts the Western with top DI players who bomb it. I played it the week before the tournament this year, and it was playing tough. I think only 13 players in the field were under par after three rounds. -3 got you a T7.

> >

> > But was it played in the way Mr. Mackenzie intended? That of course is the most important question

>

> Haha! Almost certainly not. But, it has stood the test of time with thick rough, tight driving, pretty soft conditions, and mostly target golf into the greens. Interesting stuff.

Ew, that makes the course so one dimensional and overly penal rough eliminates the creativity of the ground game.