Trend in Amature Tournament Golf?

First off - hope all you soldiers, marines, airman and sailors had a great day today! For me, I decided to use my veteran's day to play in a stroke play tournament hosted by the Virginia State Golf Association (VSGA). This is my third tournament in the last two weeks and after a third place finish in the last one, I had a really good feeling for today.

Well, by the time I finished my first hole, I realized there was no way I'd be finishing this round in under five and a half hours and therefore I was only going to get about 12 holes in as I had a previous engagement to get to. I also realized there was no way I'd finish third even if I completed the round, because one of my playing partners didn't know the most basic rules of the game nor did he have any knowledge of the etiquette; therefore driving me to the edge of madness in what should have been a great day on a great course for me, as we were playing one of the most pristine and private courses in the area.

Along with me as a 2.3 player were two former college players from Arkansas and Mississippi State; our fourth was a player who, on the first tee, didn't realize he had to tee the ball behind the tee markers - I knew we were in for a long day. Further signs of a naive player was grounding the club in the bunker, dropping a ball in the fairway after he declared a ball lost, hitting the ball in a lateral and asking how you play a ball from OB. The two other players and I decided that after a few 9's on the scorecard, there was no reason to enforce the rules on this guy, just try and explain to him what he was doing wrong.

When I shared with him that he can't ground the club in a bunker the look on his face said it all - it was if he knew we knew he was lying about his handicap (to be paired with us) but now one of the most basic rules of golf was being violated and he had no clue.

While today was maddening beyond belief, why I am calling this a trend in the title is that during a tournament last week, one of the players in my foursome walked off the course after five holes. This was the same guy who told people on the practice tee he tried to qualify for the US fricking Open the past two years. The same guy who topped two tee balls into OB or the water the first five holes, the same guy who took a 10 on a par 4, same guy hitting a wood for a 160 yard approach.

What I am just furious about is that I am getting paired with these morons who obviously lie on their scores in order to drive down their handicaps. The author Kurt Vonnegut said that "we are who we pretend to be, so be careful who we pretend to be". I can think of no better quote than this one as these two morons I played with the past two tournaments obviously were 20handicappers and when paired with good golfers, their true selves came out!

Sorry, just had to get this off my chest and see if you all have experienced the same recently as this is a new phenomena to me.

Again, hope you all had great day and a great round today and I would welcome any thoughts or comments on similar experiences you have had.

I guess this is what happens when no one needs to attest a scorecard?

In your opinion, is what these guys did worse than someone inflating their handicap to win handicap events and money?

Don't know about the Amatures - but don't care for any trend with bad prose.

LOL. There he is again. The hall monitor.

Were both tourneys at nice courses most people can’t get on? Sounds like the course today was an exclusive private course.

For some of us, the only way we are ever getting on the top end private courses is through the state associations. I’ve seen a few guys deep 6 their cap to get low enough to sign up, just so they can play the course. I’d do the same to play Interlochen or Hazeltine here in MPLS. There simply isn’t any other, legal, way on.

If a guy has to kill his cap with fake scores to get low enough to sign up to play, his cap will normalize soon enough. It only takes 10 fake scores to get a low handicap. Sign up, play the event, then put in 20 fake scores to bring your cap back.

This is probably what you are running into. Pretty unlucky, but if the courses are nice enough, exclusive enough, you will see this from time to time.

> @Augster said:

> Were both tourneys at nice courses most people can’t get on? Sounds like the course today was an exclusive private course.

>

> For some of us, the only way we are ever getting on the top end private courses is through the state associations. I’ve seen a few guys deep 6 their cap to get low enough to sign up, just so they can play the course. I’d do the same to play Interlochen or Hazeltine here in MPLS. There simply isn’t any other, legal, way on.

>

> If a guy has to kill his cap with fake scores to get low enough to sign up to play, his cap will normalize soon enough. It only takes 10 fake scores to get a low handicap. Sign up, play the event, then put in 20 fake scores to bring your cap back.

>

> This is probably what you are running into. Pretty unlucky, but if the courses are nice enough, exclusive enough, you will see this from time to time.

>

>

>

>

Or they could just try and get better at golf and earn there way on like everyone else?

> @Bingo1976 said:

> > @Augster said:

> > Were both tourneys at nice courses most people can’t get on? Sounds like the course today was an exclusive private course.

> >

> > For some of us, the only way we are ever getting on the top end private courses is through the state associations. I’ve seen a few guys deep 6 their cap to get low enough to sign up, just so they can play the course. I’d do the same to play Interlochen or Hazeltine here in MPLS. There simply isn’t any other, legal, way on.

> >

> > If a guy has to kill his cap with fake scores to get low enough to sign up to play, his cap will normalize soon enough. It only takes 10 fake scores to get a low handicap. Sign up, play the event, then put in 20 fake scores to bring your cap back.

> >

> > This is probably what you are running into. Pretty unlucky, but if the courses are nice enough, exclusive enough, you will see this from time to time.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Or they could just try and get better at golf and earn there way on like everyone else?


> @Augster said:

> Were both tourneys at nice courses most people can’t get on? Sounds like the course today was an exclusive private course.

>

> For some of us, the only way we are ever getting on the top end private courses is through the state associations. I’ve seen a few guys deep 6 their cap to get low enough to sign up, just so they can play the course. I’d do the same to play Interlochen or Hazeltine here in MPLS. There simply isn’t any other, legal, way on.

>

> If a guy has to kill his cap with fake scores to get low enough to sign up to play, his cap will normalize soon enough. It only takes 10 fake scores to get a low handicap. Sign up, play the event, then put in 20 fake scores to bring your cap back.

>

> This is probably what you are running into. Pretty unlucky, but if the courses are nice enough, exclusive enough, you will see this from time to time.

This is where the committee should look at their GHIN and see their scoring record. If it was high for a while, and then dropped to single digits in a suspicious amount of time, they should be queried about it.

--kC

Both were nice courses, but you could play with a 30 handicap. I was just ticked that they were playing with me and needed to vent. Thanks for the feedback!

> @Augster said:

> Were both tourneys at nice courses most people can’t get on? Sounds like the course today was an exclusive private course.

>

> For some of us, the only way we are ever getting on the top end private courses is through the state associations. I’ve seen a few guys deep 6 their cap to get low enough to sign up, just so they can play the course. I’d do the same to play Interlochen or Hazeltine here in MPLS. There simply isn’t any other, legal, way on.

>

> If a guy has to kill his cap with fake scores to get low enough to sign up to play, his cap will normalize soon enough. It only takes 10 fake scores to get a low handicap. Sign up, play the event, then put in 20 fake scores to bring your cap back.

>

> This is probably what you are running into. Pretty unlucky, but if the courses are nice enough, exclusive enough, you will see this from time to time.

>

>

>

>

> @Bingo1976 said:

> > @Augster said:

> > Were both tourneys at nice courses most people can’t get on? Sounds like the course today was an exclusive private course.

> >

> > For some of us, the only way we are ever getting on the top end private courses is through the state associations. I’ve seen a few guys deep 6 their cap to get low enough to sign up, just so they can play the course. I’d do the same to play Interlochen or Hazeltine here in MPLS. There simply isn’t any other, legal, way on.

> >

> > If a guy has to kill his cap with fake scores to get low enough to sign up to play, his cap will normalize soon enough. It only takes 10 fake scores to get a low handicap. Sign up, play the event, then put in 20 fake scores to bring your cap back.

> >

> > This is probably what you are running into. Pretty unlucky, but if the courses are nice enough, exclusive enough, you will see this from time to time.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Or they could just try and get better at golf and earn there way on like everyone else?

You know what was funny? I traded in an old driver, four old wedges and my current hybrid today, as I wanted to muster up some credit to get a new hybrid, as that club (well, really me) is costing me 1-2 strokes around with a horrendous miss left. Anyway as I was on the simulator with a $300 credit to play with, the dude I was paired with yesterday walked in and as soon as he saw me, he walked right out. I shared the story with the guy who was fitting me and we had a good laugh.

So what was he claiming his index was?

> @2much2ask said:

> Both were nice courses, but you could play with a 30 handicap. I was just ticked that they were playing with me and needed to vent. Thanks for the feedback!

>

> > @Augster said:

> > Were both tourneys at nice courses most people can’t get on? Sounds like the course today was an exclusive private course.

> >

> > For some of us, the only way we are ever getting on the top end private courses is through the state associations. I’ve seen a few guys deep 6 their cap to get low enough to sign up, just so they can play the course. I’d do the same to play Interlochen or Hazeltine here in MPLS. There simply isn’t any other, legal, way on.

> >

> > If a guy has to kill his cap with fake scores to get low enough to sign up to play, his cap will normalize soon enough. It only takes 10 fake scores to get a low handicap. Sign up, play the event, then put in 20 fake scores to bring your cap back.

> >

> > This is probably what you are running into. Pretty unlucky, but if the courses are nice enough, exclusive enough, you will see this from time to time.

> >

>

So... how does "you could play with a 30" measure into "knew he was lying about his handicap to be paired with us" statement?

Or, are they flighted by divisions and someone missed something? Example: A "2" is a 0 away from 20. :) May not had been his fault at all.

--kC

I thought by the current rules you are allowed to ground your club in the bunker and drop in the fairway for lost ball.

> @LeoLeo99 said:

> I thought by the current rules you are allowed to ground your club in the bunker and drop in the fairway for lost ball.

Subtle difference between playing from a bunker and playing from a penalty area. Please see rule 12.

b. Restrictions on Touching Sand in Bunker

(1) When Touching Sand Results in Penalty. Before making a stroke at a ball in a bunker, a player **must not**:

Deliberately touch sand in the bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the next stroke, or

Touch sand in the bunker with a club:

In the area right in front of or right behind the ball (except as allowed under Rule 7.1a in fairly searching for a ball or under Rule 12.2a in removing a loose impediment or movable obstruction),

In making a practice swing, or

In making the backswing for a stroke.

In Carolinas Golf Association tourneys , they pair according to handicap. How did this guy get paired with you? I don't play tournaments anymore because of the pace of play.

> @LeoLeo99 said:

> I thought by the current rules you are allowed to ground your club in the bunker and drop in the fairway for lost ball.

I believe it's a local rule that allows you to drop a ball in the fairway if your last shot is lost or OB and you didn't hit a provisional. Most city/state golf association amateur tournaments do not adopt that local rule. It's always stroke and distance.

Pace of play was the first thing that got my attention. In both the Golf Channel and Golfweek tours, none of the rounds I played in were less than 5 hours. It was ridiculous. At my club, a 4:45 tournament round is grounds for some pretty unhappy people, ahead, with, and behind the slow group. Ahead because they might want to hang out to see all of the results.

> @Imp said:

> > @2much2ask said:

> > Both were nice courses, but you could play with a 30 handicap. I was just ticked that they were playing with me and needed to vent. Thanks for the feedback!

> >

> > > @Augster said:

> > > Were both tourneys at nice courses most people can’t get on? Sounds like the course today was an exclusive private course.

> > >

> > > For some of us, the only way we are ever getting on the top end private courses is through the state associations. I’ve seen a few guys deep 6 their cap to get low enough to sign up, just so they can play the course. I’d do the same to play Interlochen or Hazeltine here in MPLS. There simply isn’t any other, legal, way on.

> > >

> > > If a guy has to kill his cap with fake scores to get low enough to sign up to play, his cap will normalize soon enough. It only takes 10 fake scores to get a low handicap. Sign up, play the event, then put in 20 fake scores to bring your cap back.

> > >

> > > This is probably what you are running into. Pretty unlucky, but if the courses are nice enough, exclusive enough, you will see this from time to time.

> > >

> >

>

> So... how does "you could play with a 30" measure into "knew he was lying about his handicap to be paired with us" statement?

>

> Or, are they flighted by divisions and someone missed something? Example: A "2" is a 0 away from 20. :) May not had been his fault at all.

>

> --kC

> @caniac6 said:

> In Carolinas Golf Association tourneys , they pair according to handicap. How did this guy get paired with you? I don't play tournaments anymore because of the pace of play.

I believe the OP is saying that you don't need a low handicap to get access to the course. Not that the guy _was_ a thirty.

He's probably fudged his handicap to get into the event.

> @Steele47 said:

> LOL. There he is again. The hall monitor.

Haha, clearly you've never been to Arizona - need to work on your sense of Yuma. ;-)

No recess for you young man.

> @jacob7071 said:

> > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > I thought by the current rules you are allowed to ground your club in the bunker and drop in the fairway for lost ball.

>

> I believe it's a local rule that allows you to drop a ball in the fairway if your last shot is lost or OB and you didn't hit a provisional. Most city/state golf association amateur tournaments do not adopt that local rule. It's always stroke and distance.

I'm assuming this is generally true since the distinction is made concerning "elite" amateur competitions - I'm sure that allows quite a bit of interpretion, however.

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @jacob7071 said:

> > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > I thought by the current rules you are allowed to ground your club in the bunker and drop in the fairway for lost ball.

> >

> > I believe it's a local rule that allows you to drop a ball in the fairway if your last shot is lost or OB and you didn't hit a provisional. Most city/state golf association amateur tournaments do not adopt that local rule. It's always stroke and distance.

>

> I'm assuming this is generally true since the distinction is made concerning "elite" amateur competitions - I'm sure that allows quite a bit of interpretion, however.

Just because the local rule is not intended for elite competitions doesn’t mean that most non-elite competitions are adopting it. Several folks on here have stated that their clubs do not use the rule in competition.

The only VSGA events being played at this time of year are "one day" events that feature gross and net scoring. There were only two held in the entire state of Virginia on Veterans Day. One at Federal Club in greater Richmond and one at International Country Club outside Reston in the greater DC area. I assume the OP is referring to the later given he appears to be from Reston.

This event featured a 113 player field divided into 5 flights based solely on age and gender. Of those 113 players, 7 posted scores in the 70's with another 35 posting scores in the 80's. Therefore, 72 players either posted rounds in the 90's, 100's or didn't post a score at all. To put it another way, roughly 65% of the field couldn't break 90 with 23 players not breaking 100.

I'm not mocking the scoring in any way, at least not intentionally. I'm simply pointing out, this is pretty typical scoring for these VSGA "one day" events. In my opinion, you know what you're signing up for when you enter.

Wait, a 10 on a par 4 ISN'T a good score?

I would rather play with OP's guy than the one who says he's a 15, shoots a gross 77 and says "yeah, just one of those days" as he picks up his winnings.

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @jacob7071 said:

> > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > > I thought by the current rules you are allowed to ground your club in the bunker and drop in the fairway for lost ball.

> > >

> > > I believe it's a local rule that allows you to drop a ball in the fairway if your last shot is lost or OB and you didn't hit a provisional. Most city/state golf association amateur tournaments do not adopt that local rule. It's always stroke and distance.

> >

> > I'm assuming this is generally true since the distinction is made concerning "elite" amateur competitions - I'm sure that allows quite a bit of interpretion, however.

>

> Just because the local rule is not intended for elite competitions doesn’t mean that most non-elite competitions are adopting it. Several folks on here have stated that their clubs do not use the rule in competition.

>

>

I was surprised our course didn't adopt it last year - at the league meetings the pro said it would be too complicated for everyone and wouldn't speed up play, so just not going to implement it. I was totally fine with that and not a fan of the new local rule at all, but it really isn't that complicated and often showed guys who didn't know or understand the rule what an advantage it would have been to hit their 3rd from the fairway vs. where it ended up after re-teeing. Same would have gone for me many times as well, lol. It would definitely speed up play.

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > @jacob7071 said:

> > > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > > > I thought by the current rules you are allowed to ground your club in the bunker and drop in the fairway for lost ball.

> > > >

> > > > I believe it's a local rule that allows you to drop a ball in the fairway if your last shot is lost or OB and you didn't hit a provisional. Most city/state golf association amateur tournaments do not adopt that local rule. It's always stroke and distance.

> > >

> > > I'm assuming this is generally true since the distinction is made concerning "elite" amateur competitions - I'm sure that allows quite a bit of interpretion, however.

> >

> > Just because the local rule is not intended for elite competitions doesn’t mean that most non-elite competitions are adopting it. Several folks on here have stated that their clubs do not use the rule in competition.

> >

> >

>

> I was surprised our course didn't adopt it last year - at the league meetings the pro said it would be too complicated for everyone and wouldn't speed up play, so just not going to implement it. I was totally fine with that and not a fan of the new local rule at all, but it really isn't that complicated and often showed guys **who didn't know or understand the rule what an advantage it would have been to hit their 3rd from the fairway vs. where it ended up after re-teeing. **Same would have gone for me many times as well, lol. It would definitely speed up play.

Pardon me? What do you mean by "hit their 3rd from the fairway"? The Local Rule says it's a two stroke penalty, so they would be hitting their 4th.

> @Sixcat said:

> The only VSGA events being played at this time of year are "one day" events that feature gross and net scoring. There were only two held in the entire state of Virginia on Veterans Day. One at Federal Club in greater Richmond and one at International Country Club outside Reston in the greater DC area. I assume the OP is referring to the later given he appears to be from Reston.

>

> This event featured a 113 player field divided into 5 flights based solely on age and gender. Of those 113 players, 7 posted scores in the 70's with another 35 posting scores in the 80's. Therefore, 72 players either posted rounds in the 90's, 100's or didn't post a score at all. To put it another way, roughly 65% of the field couldn't break 90 with 23 players not breaking 100.

>

> I'm not mocking the scoring in any way, at least not intentionally. I'm simply pointing out, this is pretty typical scoring for these VSGA "one day" events. In my opinion, you know what you're signing up for when you enter.

I couldn't find the tournaments you mentioned but I did see a 1-day event listed at The Federal Club in Glen Allen. Looks like those are open to anyone with a VSGA/USGA Handicap. In the FAQ section they even encourage those that don't have a firm understanding of the rules to participate.

I stopped counting at 20 players at 100 or over Gross - https://www.golfgenius.com/pages/1827017

> @rogolf said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > > @jacob7071 said:

> > > > > > @LeoLeo99 said:

> > > > > > I thought by the current rules you are allowed to ground your club in the bunker and drop in the fairway for lost ball.

> > > > >

> > > > > I believe it's a local rule that allows you to drop a ball in the fairway if your last shot is lost or OB and you didn't hit a provisional. Most city/state golf association amateur tournaments do not adopt that local rule. It's always stroke and distance.

> > > >

> > > > I'm assuming this is generally true since the distinction is made concerning "elite" amateur competitions - I'm sure that allows quite a bit of interpretion, however.

> > >

> > > Just because the local rule is not intended for elite competitions doesn’t mean that most non-elite competitions are adopting it. Several folks on here have stated that their clubs do not use the rule in competition.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I was surprised our course didn't adopt it last year - at the league meetings the pro said it would be too complicated for everyone and wouldn't speed up play, so just not going to implement it. I was totally fine with that and not a fan of the new local rule at all, but it really isn't that complicated and often showed guys **who didn't know or understand the rule what an advantage it would have been to hit their 3rd from the fairway vs. where it ended up after re-teeing. **Same would have gone for me many times as well, lol. It would definitely speed up play.

> Pardon me? What do you mean by "hit their 3rd from the fairway"? The Local Rule says it's a two stroke penalty, so they would be hitting their 4th.

>

>

LOL! Yes, their fourth - just had a little moment there!

Thanks!

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Sixcat said:

> > The only VSGA events being played at this time of year are "one day" events that feature gross and net scoring. There were only two held in the entire state of Virginia on Veterans Day. One at Federal Club in greater Richmond and one at International Country Club outside Reston in the greater DC area. I assume the OP is referring to the later given he appears to be from Reston.

> >

> > This event featured a 113 player field divided into 5 flights based solely on age and gender. Of those 113 players, 7 posted scores in the 70's with another 35 posting scores in the 80's. Therefore, 72 players either posted rounds in the 90's, 100's or didn't post a score at all. To put it another way, roughly 65% of the field couldn't break 90 with 23 players not breaking 100.

> >

> > I'm not mocking the scoring in any way, at least not intentionally. I'm simply pointing out, this is pretty typical scoring for these VSGA "one day" events. In my opinion, you know what you're signing up for when you enter.

>

> I couldn't find the tournaments you mentioned but I did see a 1-day event listed at The Federal Club in Glen Allen. Looks like those are open to anyone with a VSGA/USGA Handicap. In the FAQ section they even encourage those that don't have a firm understanding of the rules to participate.

>

> I stopped counting at 20 players at 100 or over Gross - https://www.golfgenius.com/pages/1827017

International Club tournament attached.

https://www.golfgenius.com/pages/2104623