Irons too "game improvement-y"?

OK, here's the story:

Avid golfer, I play about 75 rounds per year....that's a lot of golf for the great lakes area! I usually start the season with a handicap around 17-18, and slowly work it down to a 12-13 by end of season. I'm in my mid-40's now age-wise. Short game is my highlight....lots of par save attempts! From the regular men's tees, my average score is hovering right around 90, but can range from low 80's to upper 90's depending on the round. My low this summer was a 78 at my home course, while my worst was a 108 at a tough course on a bad day. As you can tell, my game has some serious up and down swings (pun intended)!

At the beginning of last season, after realizing that my swing speed was beginning to decline (getting older sucks), I decided to seek new irons that would help gain back a little lost distance. I was fitted to a set of Callaway RogueX irons, as they flew further than all the others. I liked them for a while, but this season I began to feel that they got in my way a bit. They just are so big and bulky feeling compared to my old set, Ping G (and Ping G25 before that). However, they do often provide me an extra 5-10 yards due to their aggressive lie angles. That said, I lost consistency and control with the RogueX's vs the Pings. Sure they go farther, but my misses are all over the place now. I am beginning to wonder if I made a mistake purchasing them.

What's confusing, is that these clubs should be great for me based on my swing speed and trackman session, but I've began to wonder....is it possible that they are too game improvement-y for me?

Is that even possible for someone with a handicap that ranges from 12-18 depending on time of year?

I feel like I would rather give back the 5-10 yards of distance in exchange for more consistency and control. Ya know?

Any thoughts or input is appreciated!

Often overlooked when doing the indoor fitting (on perfect lies) is turf interaction. Did you test outdoors before getting them? Its not easy to do so unless someone has true demo clubs vs. mat only demo clubs :)

Rogues have a pretty good reputation, so I am curious if your striking with turf is not as suited to your delivery vs. your other clubs.

I personally don't believe in there being a bad GI iron from quality OEMs: personal tastes tend to dictate the look from above, however the sole design can go a long way in helping folks learning the game, or hurting folks who have a different swing.

For me, once I've lost confidence in a piece of gear, it's got to go. The human element (emotions, psychology, etc) is something that can't be captured in a fitting. For example, you could show me that Shaft A gives me the exact spin and launch I need, but if it feels wrong to me, I can't play it. Or if I hate the look of an iron even though it's more forgiving, longer, etc.

In short, if you think you should switch, you should probably switch.

Also, bvanlieu makes a really good point about soles.

have you looked at Rogue Pro? same hot face tech as the std Rogue & X but in a smaller more "player" orientated chassis.

what made you change from Ping btw? the G & G25 were GI irons (some may argue they are SGI) and im reading here all the time the new Ping range is magic (G400, G410, G700 etc).

I'd also suggest looking into Rogue Pro. Friend liked them.

I just moved from Ping G irons to Apex cf16's. The G's look huge in comparison. The Apex are fairly forgiving but not as much as the G's. But I like the look of the compact head and the irons feel great.

I suggest going with what makes you happy.

There is no reason you can't play your best golf with the clubs you had and/or have if they fit you properly. After that it's up to your swing and your attitude. There aren't really any "bad" cubs or clubs with "too much" forgiveness - there's just bad swings. Get fitted, get clubs that feel and look good to your eye - after that get lessons and practice.

“I usually start the season with a handicap around 17-18, and slowly work it down to a 12-13 by end of season.”

If you end the season as a 12/13 how can you begin the next season as a 17/18? Asking for a friend who wants to do something similar.

Ping G410 irons. You will thank me later.

Sole design!

I read lots re wide sole etc and mp62 mp63 had good reviews.I Got the 63s and have dgr300 shafts.I have forgiving easy launch consistent distances.I stay away from the trampoline face style.

Don't think the issues you are having are because the clubs are too forgiving. No such thing. Ping G's are SGI, just a different flavor. If you just don't get along with the Callaway's you might want to consider the G410's. They are one of the most forgiving irons available but they have awesome playability too.

Good question, lol.

By start the season, I meant after the first couple months, not right out of the gate, as my handicap climbs back up to its ceiling as I post several consecutive bad spring scores. As the summer moves on, my index slowly falls, and my game tends to peak in Sept., just in time for a couple outings and league playoffs! Shortly thereafter, winter arrives and I wait in agony for spring, less a vacation round or two and maybe some limited indoor simulator rounds.

Along comes the next spring and rinse repeat the above....

This season (2019) for example:

-Began in March and carrying over from previous fall I was a 12.8

-By end of May I had 25 rounds in and an index of 17.6

-End of July I was up to 48 rounds on the season with an index 14.7

-End of Sept I was up to 74 rounds played with an index of 13.2

I think you may be on to something here. The RogueX sole is bulky and kind of curved, while the Ping G is a bit more straight and narrow. Bounce is different and club reacts differently to surfaces on impact.

I originally decided to shop around seeking to gain a little bit of lost distance. I did compare the Rogue, the Pro and the X when being fitted for this set in early '18. Ultimately, the X's won due to their stupid strong lofts and extra distance.

I really always loved those G's, but got suckered into thinking I needed "one less club" on my approach. I still have them and could easily go back to them next season. However, maybe I need to consider trying out the G410s. If I like them, I could trade the two other sets in and cover a solid chunk of the cost.

The RogueX’s were built to excel at fitting sessions. They’re over-length, radically strong lofted, light swing weight, light shaft, detached thin face irons. They went the furthest, so they were the best, right?

Live and learn. What super game improvement clubs have become are super distance clubs at the expense of all else, and aren’t optimal for anyone, a newer or inconsistent player least of all. There are great iron sets that maintain distance and high moi characteristics with consistency and feedback. Several of the ‘players distance’ category are right up your alley IMO.

I would consider switching back to Ping and giving the G410 a try. You're obviously comfortable with G series irons and the G410 will probably give you the bump in distance you are looking for while still having a familiar look that you are comfortable with. In your handicap range, I'm not sure I'd be looking at smaller headed irons like the Rogue Pro or Apex. I'm sure you can hit them fine during a fitting, but you just won't have the same level of confidence with them on the course.

OP, some good suggestions on things to try out here. I'd very much want to borrow or test out any used clubs you are interested in this spring on your normal turf considering how the RogueX has not worked for you.

I don't know the ping line (after playing BeCU E2+ for 20 years I jumped from them, not their fault I went forged : D ). I will say a set of P790s (2017 model fine, 2019 bit cleaner) could be up your alley being 1 club stronger in lofts but a sole design that works for most.

Also give the Srixon line a try, lots of good reviews from people, and lots of good comments on their V soles. There are a ton of great sets of clubs out there that are 1-2 y old (and new ones too of course)

... As others have intimated there is no such thing as too forgiving. Too high a trajectory, too big of a head and too wide of a sole are all viable reasons not to play a club, but not how forgiving it is. I will go to my grave saying every golf should play the most forgiving irons they can effectively play. For someone like Tiger that needs the ultimate ball control it means MB's, someone like the current Open Champion Shane Lowery that means a much more forgiving SGI/GI combo of Z745 (4, 5), Srixon Z 785 (6-PW). Obviously a large head can be harder to get thru the rough, where higher index players find themselves too often, but that can be offset by a larger heads much more forgiving design if you miss all over the face and/or consistently low on the face.

... WRX loves to promote turf interaction like it has something to do with performance or ball striking, but it does not. A better play hits the ball with a descending blow and it is long gone before making contact with the turf. Of course the feel is greatly effected by turf interaction. My P790's go thru the ground like spoon and certainly does the job but the feel of the turf giving way is begrudging. My Z Forged carve thru the turf like a scapel and the ground offers little resistance. Obviously the Z Forged feel much better but performance of the P790's is not effected by their turf interaction. Of course if you hit the ball a little fat, it does come into play.

... Golf is an interesting game combing physical ability and mental attitude. And they way a club looks at address enters into both. Mind boggling to me, some here are even effected by the color or design of an irons cavity or their woods sole ... SMH. So if you think turf interaction is important, it is. If you think you need all the help you can get, you do. If you think you should play MB's or SGI's you should. Most of us want a compromise of performance, forgiveness and look at address. And in the end, only you can decide what that combination looks like.

I'm a scratch and was as low as +1 this season for a short period and I use Ping G410 irons. Some of the best golf I ever played was with Ping G15s a few years back

You might not like the look of them which can affect how you play. But if you can get used to them and make committed swings they wont hold you back in any way.

To me an iron with some bounce and non diggy sole is greatly desired. Yes, a "good" shot is struck with a descending blow where the ball is hit before the turf, but then there are guys like me that sometimes miss on the steep side and catch the turf a little behind the ball and that's where the bounce and non-diggy (is that a word?) sole helps out. I strike down hard on the ball and trap it, low trajectory with a fair bit of spin. I just hate irons with a sharp leading edge. In fact, I developed my technique after playing blades for a bunch of years and chunking too many shots.

You said your misses are all over the place with the rogue x. Do your misses favor thin or fat shots? Because if your miss is more often thin, then the thick sole and extra bounce could be an issue for you.

I was waiting for a Epic G410 thread from you to sway the masses from blades over to the dark side:) Big jump from the Apex pro's to G410's, obviously you can play what ever u got in the bag.

I played 850 forged and Apex pro for about 5yrs total. So went away from SGI for that time period. Other than that was always bigger clubs! I like them, I'm a little more confident with the 4 and 5 irons which is good. If I played a shorter course where I didn't hit any long irons I might play a smaller iron

You may hit the Rogue X farther...stronger lofts and all that. If you are comfortable hitting something else, go with that. To my mind irons are scoring clubs, not distance clubs. The number on the sole is irrelevant.

The G410's blew every club out of the water MOI wise, some had mentioned the feel was not the best, but the score card doesn't have a feel comment section. Recently picked up some 0211's, would be interesting to hear your thoughts on those? I'm sure I will pick up a set of 410's before spring, Ping knows forgiveness better than most. What did your low handicap buddies say when they seen your SGI's in the bag again?

Lol, just "you buy too many new clubs"....people aren't super judgy where I play. I'm friends with the head pro and assistant pro, both guys use blades or small cavities and used to play minitours. When I ordered them they only said "those are cool!" . The head pro is a Callaway staffer though so he only gave me a hard time for ditching Callaway

Lol, thankfully the assistant is on Ping staff tho

Really digging the various perspectives and appreciate all the input!

With an unseasonably mild day today, I was able to get out for nine. Decided to go with the old Ping G's and leave the Rogue X's at home. It went well. In fact, it reminded me how much I loved those Pings, and while it took a few to adjust to the yardages and gaps, I was much more consistent with them compared to the past 2 years with the X's. My misses were like they used to be, consistent and predicable. It was like reuniting with an old girlfriend you missed...no love was lost!

Thinking the Rogue X set may become trade-in fodder for a new hybrid, wedge and grips!

Lol, yup guilty as charged. This place doesn't help my effort to stop. 1/2-3/4 of the fun for me is getting new to me gently used gear. My game or lack of it stays the same regardless of what I play, but I have found a few gems along the way.

Sounds like u have a great group to play with Jeff, can't hurt playing with such experienced players, the added bonus of them being Callaway and Ping staffer's makes me very envious:). You will have to keep us posted on your G410 experiences next season.

Had a similar situation with a set of Callaways. After playing Titelist 690 MB's for the better part of 10 years I figured it was time for an upgrade. During my fitting we spent the first 30 minutes hitting the newest Titleist MB's (718's at the time) and dialing in shaft types. My yardage was similar but was able to get the left to right dispersion much tighter by changing the shaft to something that fit my swing better vs the S300's in my old MB's. After that we messed around with a lot of the different player's game improvement irons and I instantly saw a 10-20 yard increase in total distance and I wish at the time the fitter had told me to focus on distance dispersion but alas hitting a 6 iron over 200 yards in the air had temporarily turned my brain off. I decided the Apex Pro 19's we're the best looking and feeling to my eye and paired with the new shaft choice it seemed like I had an unstoppable combination. A few weeks later they arrived and I took them to the course that weekend and on 7 different occasions that first round I flew the green. I chalked it up to not knowing my new distances well yet and while I was able to fine tune my yardages more and more, all season long I would have 3 or so irons into greens that would fly it completely. I came to learn later that Callaway makes a dot version of this iron without the hot face technology (I can't remember the actual technical term) but after 4 months of not trusting my iron distances I gave them up and went back to my MB's. I eventually purchased the new 620's with the shaft I was fitted for but I too seem to be a victim of these new game improvement irons. I will gladly trade the 20 extra yards per iron for consistent yardages.