Releasing the golf club, roll release vs body release (pictures/videos included)...

Something I have been working on and struggling with for the last year or two is how to release the club to produce the most accurate shots i can with the least amount of curve. Linked are two videos with still frames describing the two releases. My swing is a work and progress and there are a lot of ugly things i want to change but this post is solely about the release part of my swing.

The first release i refer to as a roll release - been using this for almost 10 years. Hit the ball pretty far (195 yd 7 irons) but can hook it off the planet when it's bad. Notice in this pattern my exit is much higher and arms much more disconnected from my body in the follow through. The face is turned over and pointing down and left (arrow). I think the reason I have stuck with this for so long is because i liked to be able to hit the ball far but i dont think all speed is created equal, and if i want lower scores, i need a more predictable pattern and to tighten up misses drastically. Basically I don't think I am creating speed the right way and need to totally abandon this.

The second release i refer to as a body release - been playing with this feel for 1-2 yrs and notice all the ball strikers/swings i admire look more like this post impact. Club face pointing straight left (arrow in picture) and a lower exit. This looks much closer to how i want it to look and feels much more stable through the ball. Pivot feels more engaged and much less handsy. Anytime I don't focus on releasing the club this way and even sometimes when i do, some of the roll starts creeping back in. Like i said I have been battling this change for like 2 years and I am still amazed by how hard it is to get rid of the old.

My question is - I have always heard you will hit it further with the pivot than you can with your hands. Is that true? It's definitely not something I have seen while testing these releases out on trackman. I would say the body release goes about 20-25 yds shorter on average ( 175-180 yard 7 irons vs roll release i can get up to 200 plus). When i really middle one i can get within 10 yards but it is consistently less distance with using the "body release." Totally don't mind giving up distance for accuracy but I'm just confused because i always heard you will hit it further with your body than with your hands. I wouldn't mind giving up 20 yards through the bag to get more accurate, but do i have to? Maybe it is a matter of really committing to this for a few months and training/building the speed the right way?

Thanks to anyone who comments and has read this far. Here are links to both swings and pictures are attached

Roll Release -

Body Release -

These are not mutually exclusive, there is a blend. There’s a reason people lose very little club head speed when they hit off their knees, when they lose most of their rotational speed.You shouldn’t be forcing 1 or the other. They are a result of what you do from setup through backswing and transition.If you start a sentence with “I heard” or “They say” it’s generally going to be a false myth or misconception. ?

More on #3.

For example, your 2 stills with the arrows. Those things are going to be the result of things like face orientation to the oath and target.

If you force the body release still into a club that’s too open to the path or target, the results would be awful.

....and to clarify #2, the body/pivot hitting th ball father is a myth.

Thanks Monte, i was hoping you would comment! Happy you validated this myth - there's no way i can hit it further with my pivot than i can with my hands. And the "harder i turn" the more the sequencing gets thrown off and the results are even worse. I like the idea of the blending of the two. I think i just have to realize that my habit will always be to over do the roll and lose the face. Just something I will always have to be aware of i think.

There is always room to improve. Looks like you could improve your pressure shift a bit.

I've been on pretty much the same quest (lessons, videos, print, etc.) for the past three years since starting to play again, and never found anything that really clicked until I stumbled across a few of Russel Heritage's newer videos yesterday. I finally feel like I understand how to swing the club from P5 (?) through the ball, and had a much more fun day at the course today. I recommend watching them in the order I post them below:https://youtu.be/44ZAOvLldEchttps://youtu.be/qiNl8MYFbSEhttps://youtu.be/I9tCrvcIE4Yhttps://youtu.be/eScHTsy2KXs

I went down this road this year and what i learned is exactly what monte just said. Its not one or the other, you can blend both together with varying degrees. Find what works for you and stick with it. The roll release, while not the “popular” release, has been around forever and played alot of great golf. I also find ball position so crucial with a roll release as small changes whether known or unknown can cause timing issues.

Another believer here who's been converted to less of a roll release. I think we all know the roll isn't the problem, it's the early extension, arms swinging straight out and hooding the clubface at impact to make it draw or hook back. You can easily jump and swing the club very quickly with this swing, but in my experience is very inconsistent. Now that I am progressing to better angles allowing my more space to operate, and able to bring the arm/hands closer at impact, has enabled me to produce smaller curves on the draws. And yeah it's a myth that you will just immediately hit it further (I know there are videos out there showing students doing that etc) but I think those are the exception not the rule. You'll need to learn to fire your body in a completely different manner, and meanwhile not forgetting your arms since that's still where the speed comes in. If you don't even use your arms it's most likely going to lead to very awkward positions, back pain, loss of distance, massive slices, and possibly hair loss from the stress due to your struggling game. It just takes a lot of work to overcome years of bad habits.

When I learned the game in 1964, I was taught what the OP is calling the "roll" release. The belief at that time was that you wanted the club parallel to the target line at P6 when the club is parallel to the ground, and you wanted the club parallel to the target line at P8, immediately after impact when the club is again parallel to the ground. Doing that involved a forearm roll movement. The belief was that if you wanted to hit a fade, you delayed (held off) the roll; if you wanted to hit a hook, you rolled more aggressively. They called the latter move "slamming the door". I probably went 25 years thinking that I would get more consistent with that move if only I could practice more. When the time came that I could practice as much as I wanted, I still couldn't obtain consistent performance.

After failing to perfect the roll release, I consulted a teacher who preferred what the OP is calling the "body release". In release terms, it's more of a block than a roll. We began by hitting knock down shots and built up to a full swing from there. My problem with that move was that I could hit short and medium irons that way, but I could never hit a driver.

I remember lying in bed one night trying to visualize how the hands would have to work if I wanted to keep the club face square just a little bit longer thru impact. When the answer hit me, I excitedly ran to the range the next morning. In a Hogan-esque moment, I hit the ball so square I thought there'd be a flat spot of one side. The the whole sound of impact was different. The feel of my hands thru impact was completely different from anything I had felt before. I asked myself "why has no one shown me this move?" It was like it was some kind of freaking secret.

My particular solution is one I'll keep to myself. Wrist anatomy is difficult to understand and even more difficult to discuss. But, like Monte said, release is the product of how you swing. You can't force it; it happens. All you can do is get in the way.

I tried the whole body release, passive arms, hands just hold the club with strong grip, fire hips forward and they open naturally, squat down etc etc that seems to be the rave. Not to kill the what the cool kids are doing, but I am in pretty decent shape, early 30s, carry 60 or so rounds per year, and this was killing my lower back. And I have carried a lot in the past and I never had any back pain before. It is possible that I was just doing it wrong but the pain was just becoming too much. I had such a hard time transferring weight and I always found a way to finish in a really awkward reverse C position. Plus, distance control with irons and wedges was so difficult to figure out. Full swings kind of worked but partials were a nightmare. Do I turn less on backswing and open less on follow through to hit a knockdown? For the life of me I could not hit a 40 yard pitch and would basically chunk it every time. And quite frankly, I felt this use the body feel was causing me to go outside - in path and come over the top because I am certain my brain was telling my arms to speed up because they were left behind. So being in that all holy open position with hips and shoulders open at impact never got my arms to where they had to be consistently.

I have a massive upper body (textbook definition of barrel chested) and have so much more control over what my arms and hands are doing than my lower body. When I realized that when I blend a more neutral grip (for me), proper forearm rotation and let my body react to the arms and hands swinging the club, I actually made more progress faster. Doing this actually made my lower body more quiet in what seemed to be no movement at all, but after viewing myself on video my hip turn was a full 45 degrees during my backswing and my weight shifted forward on the downswing naturally due to coil. Feel clearly is not real. It was eye opening. Plus, I hit it farther and dispersion is tighter using arms and hands as the driver of the swing rather than trying to use my whole body. This I honestly think is just simple physics of arms moving faster than being along for the ride but please correct me if I am wrong. And the kicker is the best part. My short stint with back pain is gone. Even yesterday I hit the range in 35 degree weather and hit 250 balls. Not an ounce of pain during or afterwards.

I really started learning about the swing when I purchased Monte’s Drive for Dough video a couple of years back and after incorporating that for a couple of months things really clicked. But everyone and their mother who plays golf in 2019 says you have to artificially squat and rotate open to hit it long and straight. So I tried it. I am 100% certain it is not for me. And of course your mileage may vary so take my experience with a grain of salt. So again, thanks Monte.

Nice post. Just curious - why do you prefer to keep it to yourself?

If you keep everything moving together around the 7th cervical the club will release freely. Think of your arms and hands as conduits of energy, if you try to control the release you're blocking/impeding the flow of energy to the club head.

Thanks for (not) sharing. Extremely helpful.

TGM - i love it.

I'm somewhat familiar with TGM but I learned that concept from Mike Austin.

Are those socks on your feet OP? Get some shoes man! Check this out while exploring. Your welcome, from one 5 to another.

Isn't there also a "throw" (Extentension/flexion) of trail hand? Or is this what is supposed to happen during the "body release"?

There would be no speed without releasing the wrists and just turning the body. If I understand it correctly, this is how you stay square to the arc on the downswing.

Monte showed me this at the clinic because I was rolling to wide open at the top. Maybe I am misunderstanding this terminology.

All I know is Monte was fixing my backswing during the clinic to fix my downswing. I ended up having to do half shots for months just to fix major flaws in my top position.

So, as his comments stated earlier, setup - backswing.

One of the best things I'm aware of for improving release is single arm swing - both right and left handed. Can start short where the club only goes back to shaft parallel. Helps to understand what the release actually entails too - would point your to Tyler Ferrell - either his website or book - the stock tour swing. Here's a shortened version (on his pay site it's goes for 22 minutes.

Does Ferrell define release and under what condition(s) his definition occurs?

He does. Stock tour from p5.5 to p8. Has about 4 pages on arms and body movements during release in his book. Has over 150 videos on release on his site - including putter, finesse/distance wedge, bunker, stock tour - includes drills, analysis video of pros and ams, concept discussion, and answers to member questions.

His youtube site has a limited numbers of videos from his membership site.

this is a very helpful video - thanks for posting. it goes back to what i stated in my original post. this release is what most of the best strikers on tour look like and i feel like it is built in for accuracy/scoring lower. the roll release will definitely hit it further though and i'm happy to hear others validate the myth that the pivot and the big muscles generates more speed than the hands and arms. moving forward i will exclusively body release as i struggle with curve and need more control of my ball to shoot better scores. dont care about losing some yards in the short term!

Roll release versus body release shouldn't be a factor in how far you can hit it. Cheetham studied handle twist velocity and concluded that either low or high twist golfers hit is as far and as accurate - high twist would be roller and low twist would be body (or pusher) DJ is a good example of low twist. Im not clear on what you mean by the roll and body but Cheetham uses rollers and pushers based on their definition from Stubbs and Cochran work way back in the day - high twist was associated with higher club face closure rate and thought to be less accurate and have more club head speed - termed Rollers by S&C - versus low twist termed Pushers by S&C - turns out that is not the case, both rollers and pushers generate speed and accuracy with no significant difference according to Cheetham's work.Fr

From watching both videos, I'd say your release is the same in both (like Tyler where he demos the arm throwing club at target and body stalling) and your intent to go low and left in your body release version is just an unintentional hold off from what you would normally do and thus the reduce speed.

Here's his work in all the gory detail if you like to read it - it's any easy read for a phd dissertation. https://www.philcheetham.com/media/Phillip-Cheetham-Doctoral-Dissertation-2014.pdf

I think you understood my Roll vs Body just fine based on your explanation. DJ would be the extreme version of a body release where someone like VIjay/Phil look closer to a roll release to my eye. I'm not sure if it will just take some more training, but i definitely cannot hit it as far with the body release vs the handsy roll release. Monte confirmed above the hands and arms are faster than the big muscles. Perhaps you can hit it the same distance with either release, in which case I am jealous! One thing I am sure of is they are two very different motions and feels. Thanks for sharing...

I'll be honest, this is one of the most confusing parts of golf instruction. Given these guys are all top players, I have no idea what body release is supposed to mean or what we're supposed to go after.

They are marketing terms directed at teaching a “non-timing based swing” so you don’t have to practice and still become scratch. The fact there is no correlation between ROC and skill level or dispersion and ROC isn’t measured the way some promote it....and club speed affects ROC, etc........is swept under the rug.

Monte, would you agree the release is simply the unhinging of the wrists, much like what Tyler in the video above is teaching? And roll release/body release are just misnomers for how in sync the arms are with the body?

Yes

I’m ok with calling it a misnomer... thought it really doesn’t matter what you call it, it’s arbitrary. Two different looks and feels for sure

The pictures are all of driver swings and the forearms are crossing over (rolling) rapidly. I bet that the crossing over is considerably less with a wedge shot or short iron. It is an interesting discussion because the whole concept of the Planemate is that there is no crossing over until much later in the swing.

The name of the game is centrifugal force and how one controls it. Because the driver is the longest and fastest club, it’s hard to control and that’s why driver swings look the way they do. The club over taking rate is fastest. That’s why you see guys like Spieth and brooks bend the left arm to prevent the clubs head from passing the hands. With driver SS it is almost impossible to control CF but irons much more manageable. The more I study it, the more I feel like the roll shouldn’t happen until P8 or later. Again with driver it’s going to happen but it’s just making sure it happens later is the key. I am no expert, just an addict who watches way too much swing footage. I’d be interested to hear the experts thoughts tho on the above