Ball hits leaf on green

Played a chip yesterday, the ball rolled on the green, hit a leaf then goes in the hole. From what I've read Rule 19-1b addresses this issue and says you must rehit if this occurs, but when I go to the rulebook, I don't see Rule 19-1b. Rule 19-1 addresses unplayable lies.

Was this one of the rules that changed in 2019 and it no longer applies? This happened to a player in 2017 on the Web.com Tour.

Check out 2019 Rule 11.1: Rules and Interpretationsand if you need it, the Definition for Outside Influence found here:https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=47

Not an expert but reading the rule that sui generis provided, you'd play it as it lies, assuming you didn't chip from on the green.

Imo, the ball would be played as it lies regardless of whether the stroke was made from off the green or the stroke was made from on the green. Exception 2 to Rule 11.1b does not apply to a ball in motion striking an outside influence.

The web.com incident I remember was a blowing leaf deflecting a shortish putt.

Off the green, I assume, would be rub of green...

Exception 2 to R 11.1b might apply to a ball in motion string an outside influence -- if that outside influence is also "any person, animal or movable obstruction" (other than a person attending the flagstick).

Agreed, corrected below. My point was that a moving, or stationary, leaf isn't included.

Imo, the ball would be played as it lies regardless of whether the stroke was made from off the green or the stroke was made from on the green. Exception 2 to Rule 11.1b does not apply to a ball in motion striking an anything but any person, animal or movable obstruction.

And that happened under the old Rules; the new (2019) provide a different result for that incident.

I wasn't aware this rule changed. Old rule, putt hits a moving leaf and you had to replay. New/current rule is rub of the green?

"Rub of the green" also disappeared. In 2019, if a ball in motion after a stroke from the putting green is stopped or deflected by a moving leaf, the ball is played as it lies. See Rule 11.

I agree with Rogolf. Interestingly, if a ball played from the putting green is deflected or stopped by a coffee cup blown by the wind, Exception 2 applies and the ball is replaced and replayed.

Question is: if ball comes to rest on top of a leaf, on the green, is it still "play it as it lies" and have to putt off of the leaf?

On 10/14/2023 at 9:46 AM, Daniel3342 said:

Question is: if ball comes to rest on top of a leaf, on the green, is it still "play it as it lies" and have to putt off of the leaf?

What? You always have the option to mark and pick up your ball ON the putting green. Mark, pick up the ball, move the leaf, put the ball back down at the mark. 

So long as this thread is about the putting green,,,,,, I'll ask this here.

Yesterday, a guy in the group holes a long-sh putt. Ball sticks betweethe flagstick and the hole's ed with part of it below the level of the green.

So the ball is holed.

Next guy to play is about 3 feet away, and before the 1st guy can get to the hole and pick up his ball, the 2nd guy putts - it goes directly in without touching the 1st ball.

What is the status of the 1st/holed ball ? And what would've happened had the 2nd player's ball had, say, rimmed around and hit the ball already there/holed ?

I'm thinking rub of the green but couldn't find the rule.

Since the first ball is holed, it's no longer in play and, in the situation you've described, there is no penalty to anyone.

It's the same as holing a putt with another ball already in the hole - no penalties.

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

So long as this thread is about the putting green,,,,,, I'll ask this here.

 

Yesterday, a guy in the group holes a long-sh putt. Ball sticks betweethe flagstick and the hole's ed with part of it below the level of the green.

 

So the ball is holed.

 

Next guy to play is about 3 feet away, and before the 1st guy can get to the hole and pick up his ball, the 2nd guy putts - it goes directly in without touching the 1st ball.

 

What is the status of the 1st/holed ball ? And what would've happened had the 2nd player's ball had, say, rimmed around and hit the ball already there/holed ?

 

I'm thinking rub of the green but couldn't find the rule.

Once a ball is holed, its holed, it can't become "un-holed", the Player has finished play of the hole.  

8 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Since the first ball is holed, it's no longer in play and, in the situation you've described, there is no penalty to anyone.

It's the same as holing a putt with another ball already in the hole - no penalties.

Hmm, I doubt I will ever encounter this but gotta ask. If the second putt DID touch the ball that is already considered holed but is largely above the edge of the hole does he get a two stroke penalty for striking another ball from the green? Or is it not a penalty because the first ball is considered holed?  It certainly would not be a penalty if a ball already holed was at the bottom of the cup and the second hit it in the hole.

7 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Hmm, I doubt I will ever encounter this but gotta ask. If the second putt DID touch the ball that is already considered holed but is largely above the edge of the hole does he get a two stroke penalty for striking another ball from the green? Or is it not a penalty because the first ball is considered holed?  It certainly would not be a penalty if a ball already holed was at the bottom of the cup and the second hit it in the hole.

HHmmmmm, can a ball simultaneously be Holed and still be "at rest on the putting green".  A ball is on the Putting Green if any part of it is touching the Putting Green, and a ball leaning against the flagstick clearly is touching the Putting Green.  The ball isn't "in play", so it has the same status of some random golf ball, but its still at rest on the putting green.  I'm leaning towards saying the second player could be penalized under the Exception to 11.1a.

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Hmm, I doubt I will ever encounter this but gotta ask. If the second putt DID touch the ball that is already considered holed but is largely above the edge of the hole does he get a two stroke penalty for striking another ball from the green? Or is it not a penalty because the first ball is considered holed?  It certainly would not be a penalty if a ball already holed was at the bottom of the cup and the second hit it in the hole.

No penalty in what you describe - the ball is holed and no longer in play.  Rule 11 only applies to balls in play.

As stated previously, the ball resting against the flagstick with part of the ball below the surface is holed, and has the same status as a ball in the bottom of the hole.

34 minutes ago, rogolf said:

No penalty in what you describe - the ball is holed and no longer in play.  Rule 11 only applies to balls in play.

As stated previously, the ball resting against the flagstick with part of the ball below the surface is holed, and has the same status as a ball in the bottom of the hole.

That’s what I thought…though @davep043 disagreed.

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Rule 11 only applies to balls in play.

I voluntarily change my initial evaluation, after re-reading the Definition of In Play:

"When the Rules refer to a ball at rest or in motion, this means a ball that is in play."

and the Exception:

"If the player’s ball in motion hits another ball at rest on the putting green and both balls were on the putting green before the stroke, the player gets the general penalty (two penalty strokes)."

So if that putted ball hits some random ball, the ball that's been holed, or any other ball that is not In Play, it has hit a Moveable Obstruction, possibly a piece of Equipment, but it doesn't fit that Exception, there's no penalty.   If I read through 11.1b(2) correctly (its a challenge), the Player must replay the shot, and the stroke does not count.

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Hmm, I doubt I will ever encounter this but gotta ask. If the second putt DID touch the ball that is already considered holed but is largely above the edge of the hole does he get a two stroke penalty for striking another ball from the green? Or is it not a penalty because the first ball is considered holed?  It certainly would not be a penalty if a ball already holed was at the bottom of the cup and the second hit it in the hole.

The complete story, from our USGA friends:

Per Rule 13.2c, the ball leaning against the flagstick is holed, which means it is not in play and is an ordinary movable obstruction. Since that movable obstruction is partially above the surface, when the other ball hits it, the ball in motion has hit a movable obstruction on the putting green and exception 2 to Rule 11.1b applies. The stroke does not count and the player must play a ball again from the previous spot. (The ball that was against the flagstick was still holed, that does not go away because it was moved out of the hole by the deflection).

Well, I had it partly correct - that's why we have a Committee, to get it totally correct!

Thanks.

14 hours ago, davep043 said:

I voluntarily change my initial evaluation, after re-reading the Definition of In Play:

"When the Rules refer to a ball at rest or in motion, this means a ball that is in play."

and the Exception:

"If the player’s ball in motion hits another ball at rest on the putting green and both balls were on the putting green before the stroke, the player gets the general penalty (two penalty strokes)."

So if that putted ball hits some random ball, the ball that's been holed, or any other ball that is not In Play, it has hit a Moveable Obstruction, possibly a piece of Equipment, but it doesn't fit that Exception, there's no penalty.   If I read through 11.1b(2) correctly (its a challenge), the Player must replay the shot, and the stroke does not count.

11.1b(2) is definitely a horrible rule to explain to a player when giving a ruling on the spot and the player wants more than just your word on it. I think of it as a "double negative" structure.

On 10/20/2023 at 11:42 PM, antip said:

The complete story, from our USGA friends:

 

Per Rule 13.2c, the ball leaning against the flagstick is holed, which means it is not in play and is an ordinary movable obstruction. Since that movable obstruction is partially above the surface, when the other ball hits it, the ball in motion has hit a movable obstruction on the putting green and exception 2 to Rule 11.1b applies. The stroke does not count and the player must play a ball again from the previous spot. (The ball that was against the flagstick was still holed, that does not go away because it was moved out of the hole by the deflection).

Surely not the complete story.

In some scenarios  ,  when the player is aware that his putt   may strike a movable obstruction, then any deflection would not be considered accidental.

I suggest that putting towards a hole with another ball resting against a flag stick qualifies as such.🤔

17 minutes ago, limegreengent said:

Surely not the complete story.

In some scenarios  ,  when the player is aware that his putt   may strike a movable obstruction, then any deflection would not be considered accidental.

I suggest that putting towards a hole with another ball resting against a flag stick qualifies as such.🤔

Welcome back LGG. I'm very reassured to know you continue to stalk the ramparts.
I think it would have been better for me to use the word "fuller" than "complete" but others, at least, still found the contribution useful. 
But, consistent with the spirit of your comment, I think your last sentence "qualifies" would be better expressed as "may qualify". 

Oh, there's an obstruction leaning against the flagstick, since I don't wish to hit it and have to replay the putt, I'll aim a little right. Oops, the best laid plans . . . .

I'd suggest that as it would be daft to putt knowing there was a holed ball blocking the hole we might take it that the player putted unknowingly.... but then  who putts without having looked  several  times at the hole? How could you not know?

I can construct quite broad fences to sit on when uncertain. 😊

14 hours ago, limegreengent said:

Surely not the complete story.

In some scenarios  ,  when the player is aware that his putt   may strike a movable obstruction, then any deflection would not be considered accidental.

I suggest that putting towards a hole with another ball resting against a flag stick qualifies as such.🤔

Sorry,  can't agree with that. And it has nothing to do with the actual rule.

may - "expressing possibility"

accidental  - "happening by chance, unintentionally, or unexpectedly".

So, by definition(s), the possibility of something happening does NOT mean the player intended for it to happen. i.e. NOT "intentional".