Patrick Reed and how much does that go on in Junior Golf

I am sure by now everyone heard about Patrick Reed and how he cheated and improved his lie. It's obvious that was blatant attempt at it. So a couple of questions has anyone seen this on Junior golf and second how many are actually watching for this. This cheating seems to me hard to catch without video camera's looking at them taking every shot.

As much as I would love to believe other players would catch this sort of thing I have a hard believing they really could pay that much attention too. So unless officials are watching them I would think some juniors get away with this sort of thing a lot.

I think you could ask the same question of touring pros playing early rounds outside of TV coverage.

My brother and I personally witnessed a low-ranked player at a tour event stripping a bunch of branches off a tree to achieve an unencumbered swing. He was in the woods and the other two players in his group, as well as the rules official, were well away on the other side of the fairway. It was so brazen, we couldn't believe it was happening. The player's actions definitely gave him an advantage, letting him go for the green on a shot that should have been a forced safety.

At the time, my brother and I were both looking at each other, wondering if we should say something, but we ultimately didn't. Maybe we should have. I don't know.

Without an official or camera on every player at all times, a certain amount of cheating becomes almost impossible to police.

Pretty crappy situation to put your caddie in. I guess it makes sense that half of the money a caddie makes is to keep their mouth shut.

It's noteworthy that you mention this. The player's caddie definitely didn't look happy or comfortable with the situation.

Not that I have ever seen it, but I would be surprised if it's never happened. There can be so much pressure on junior golfers to perform I could easily see something similar happen. At the same time I have played with other kids who have called penalties on themselves for various reason, which more than likely would have gone unnoticed if they didn't say anything.

Cheaters will eventually get caught. As a player, caddie, coach, etc I've seen everything from blatant attempts at cheating to accidental. I make it a point while I'm playing that if my partner is not "in play" that I'm aware of what they are doing. I'm not watching them like a hawk but if I saw it go in somewhere questionable I'm not letting them wander alone. Best case to make for helping a competitor look for a ball in my opinion. That way they can't give you the ole pocket trick.

We talked about this a while ago. I believe someone in Kekoa’s kid’s group was doing something in the sand?

I referee a fair bit of junior golf and I'll say that in my experience it depends on the skill level of the players. Less skilled players such as high school boys might try to pull a fast one now and then, but if there's anyone in the group paying attention, I'll hear about it. But the high level juniors, in AJGA for example, wouldn't dare; they might make an honest mistake but never a Patrick Reed.

When my son played high school golf, he called a penalty on himself (no one saw the infraction but him). His coach was PO'd at him for doing so. I told him I was more proud of him for doing that, than if he had shot a 63.

Even if one does cheat, and benefits from doing so, he still has to look at himself in the mirror and knows that what he "won" by cheating, pales in comparison to selling his integrity so cheaply.

Several of you here know my kid’s story including Tiger, Leezer, Matt, Dan, and a bunch of others. My kid calling another kid out resulted in social media threatening, sheriffs department, and ultimately trouble with the school. I had it posted here for about an hour and requested the post be taken down when law enforcement got involved.

If it is in question, your kid needs to watch. A lot of kids will try to cheat. Hate to say it that way, but it is reality. It happens in all levels including AJGA .

here is the thing everyone knows they need to watch playing partners but if we are all honest it really is impossible to watch someone for 4 or 5 hours and concentrate on your playing your best golf.

as a parent I probably should do a better job and watch the kids when you have a feeling something is up when my kid is hitting the ball. That when there most likely to do something.

the best run tournaments have officials that everyone sees and they watch the kids. I think that is probably the best we can hope for.

i also believe it happens at all levels including the PGA apparently. The biggest difference is the higher you go the harder it is to actually cheat. One thing for sure what Patrick Reed did was no accident and he should have been DQ over that.

I will say this as well. Cheating at school is an epidemic. The same kids cheating on the golf course are cheating at school to get a head as well. It is sad, but this is what our society has become. Parents have allowed it to happen by always backing the kid, even when they know they are wrong. Parents are too busy worrying about hurting their kids feelings rather than being parents. I could go into an entire dialogue, but really don't have the time. Bottom line, when kids eff up parents need to whip that ***.

If you have to cheat it means one of two things:

You know you aren't good enough to beat the others without cheating. You are unwilling to put in the effort it takes to be good.

As a teacher, I can say that Heavy is dead on correct. The kids who cheat on the playing field (in any sport) are the ones in the classroom doing the same thing and when we call them out typically now parents back the kids even when we have every shred of proof that the kid blatantly cheated. Our society values results by any means over any proper process and unfortunately we are seeing a generation of kids raised by parents who are consistently backing them no matter and schools whose hands are tied by legal ridiculousness.

Second hand story from a trusted source but there was a guy there during this most recent PReed incident and he said with the naked eye you couldn't see the sweeping of the sand away from the ball. That being said, there is also a rule that was implemented back in 2017 (34-3/9) saying that you can't rule a penalty if it can only be seen with HD Slow Motion and not the naked eye. For reference this rule was brought to light back in November 2018 when Tiger was said to have double hit a shot from a bush but not given the penalty because the only way the PGA Tour rules guys could see it was using HD slow motion video.

Decision 34-3/9 reads in part, "Video technology, especially the use of methods such as high resolution or close-up camera shots that can be replayed in slow motion, has the potential to undermine this essential characteristic of the game by identifying the existence of facts that could not reasonably be identified in any other way."

Now the question begs, was PReed unjustly penalized if it couldn't be seen with the naked eye and only brought to light from a zoomed in HD Slow Mo video?

I taught and coached for 10 years. I always told my players that how hard they worked in the classroom was a reflection to how hard they worked on the practice field. Work ethic goes hand in hand. My wife still teaches and will be able to retire in 5 years. Can't come soon enough for her because the world of education has changed, for the worse over the last 20 years.

Kids don't have the fear of their dad beating the hell out of them anymore when they do something wrong. I wouldn't cheat because I knew it was wrong, I also knew my dad's belt color was black and blue.

I don't know if physical punishment is the answer, but you certainly are correct that education has changed.

When I first started teaching over a decade ago, I took my coaching mentality into the classroom with me. I was determined to motivate the students to work and be honest in their efforts. Before long, I had administrators and parents calling for me to be fired. It just doesn't pay to put any effort or care into the profession anymore.

In my day, the parents always backed the teacher. The last thing a kid wanted was for the teacher to call home. Now if the teacher calls home, she needs a lawyer by her side, lol.

My son understands who is boss and is a very good kid. My daughter frequently forgets who is boss of the house and pushes boundaries.

I wasn't trying to suggest that boys are more difficult than girls or anything, more that my daughters are so frickin cute that the idea of laying a hand on them is just absurd.

Oh I got ya, IMO boys are easier than girls but smell worse.

You should smell mine. You might change your opinion. :)

The incident that I believe prompted that rule change was Anna Nordquist in a bunker in the 2016 US Open. In that case it really WAS about 8 grains of sand, directly under her club as she was hovering it at address. In the Reed case, it looks to me as if there was enough sand moved that the scrape mark in the sand must have been visible. You can clearly see where the back lip of the footprint was disturbed, the bottom shape of the wedge. The sand appears to have been propelled several inches each time he "scooped" it back. In my opinion, this infraction should have been clearly visible to the naked eye, had anyone actually been looking at the time.

I play a couple amateur events in Minnesota each year. And also, played highschool golf. The most common thing I’ve come across is players trying to take lateral drops many yards ahead of were their ball entered .

Most frustrating, is when the MGA sends out college teammates in a two sums (once saw a pairing loose balls on multiple tee shots, and both carded 76 74, in a Gail) In general, the MGA does a horrible job putting on events.

This past summer I played with a D3 college kid who dropped a ball.

I don’t remember any tournament or school match that my daughter has played in where there wasn’t some kid trying to cheat. In middle school it was really bad but I assumed that was from kids being new to golf and they and their parents just didn’t know the rules. But you’d think that sort of thing goes away by high school but that’s not the case. Some kids will see what they can get away with on the first hole. If they are paired with passive or shy kid, then they know they can get away with anything. My kid used to be that way but decided she wasn’t going to get beat by cheating again. She will call them out no matter how mad they get. What really surprised me was how willing some parents (and grandparents) are to help with the cheating. We’ve seen just about everything.

I have been reading a mental book, yep 1 of the 1000 that exist. But this one states that our external actions have to Be in concert with our values. Also that each reason we have for playing is a value, and for good play to happen our intentions and reasons for playing must line up with these values. When conflicts happen is when we play bad.

for example a high school golfer who plays for fun until a scholarship is dangled in front of them. After this the players play suffers. Because his values are not lining up with his play. He doesn’t want to play for a scholarship inside himself, he wants to play for fun. And so a psychologist has to tell him to forget the scholarship and just play. If he gets the reward great, if not oh well.

I noticed that when it comes to kids being honest the more kids have to travel the more likely the kids are more honest. The worst tournaments are local ones where everyone has been playing for years and they want to keep the status quo. Also some tours and events tend to have higher average score because they just better run.

This is not saying cheating doesn't happen but if does happen it's not that low level stuff you tend to see at local events and they have to work harder to do it.

This doesn't make sense to me. How do you equate a better run tournament to higher scores? I equate it to below average players. A good tour is going to have a fair and balanced set up with 6 easy, 6 medium, and 6 difficult pin placements. The duty of those running the tour is to keep players coming back, which means shooting lower scores. Tournaments with high scores tend to have low quality fields and are poorly run.

To clarify things you will see lower scores at very high level events like AJGA that is good and should be expected. What I don't expect is to see if lower scores then AJGA tournaments at your local high school event that doesn't have those same players you see playing the AJGA.

So for example I don't expect the local PGA tournaments in Minnesota with local kids over 13 to average close to or less then par year in year out. If that is happening the course is simply too easy or those scores are not real. If those kids are that good they would be regularly playing in higher events. In a lot cases they don't or if they do they score a lot higher.

I generally find these better run event produce higher scores and this includes AGJA that scores tend to run higher on average especially if you take out the top 10%.

Should also say I seen many cases where a kid shoots under par at a local PGA event all the time but scores like 85 or 87 and never break 80 when they play an AJGA event.

this tends to tell me either they got away something or they simply can’t play harder courses and setups.

When millions of dollars are on the line and a win can be lifechanging, if I have a branch in my way or I gently touch the sand behind the ball without intention, I am going to play the shot and it is what it is. If someone calls me on it I will gladly sign the scorecard for two stroke penalty as long as the rules official deems it necessary. Last thing I want is to be disqualified without a paycheck.