Hzrdus Smoke Green in TM SIM - made for shaft or real deal?

Anyone know anything about the hzrdus smoke green stock shaft in the new TM SIM drivers? Wondering if these are real deal smoke greens (just the mass produced version) or if they are just some very cheap 'made for' version for TM.

I'm suspicious since TM charges a $250 upcharge for the Ventus options, and when I hit the 70g version in the store it felt very light and was spinning quite a bit more than expected.

You hit the 70g Ventus or 70g smoke green?

70g smoke. PGATSS didn't have any other options unfortunately

Smoke green are real deal smoke green design offering by PX just not the small batch Option without an upcharge.

It is the same characteristics and profile, just not the same materials. It will be a watered down version, just like the ventus that is offered at no upcharge.

That’s just not true. Same materials, design and build, just not small batch designation. Mass produced overseas for volume stock shaft programs. To say it’s “watered down” is just inaccurate

I think it actually lies somewhere in the middle here. The "Small Batch" designation I believe has never actually meant anything in the case of the Smoke Green. There are two versions of the shaft; the 6.0 (Stiff) / 6.5 (X-stiff) and the 6.5TX (Tour Extra Stiff). The S and X flexes were extremely similar to the Smoke Black and will be/are the OEM offerings you will see. The 6.5TX is the "Hulk" and is a completely different profile which would be considered the "premium" shaft and would not be available without an upcharge.

How’s that in between. The smoke green 60 and 70 being offered are the real deal plain and simple. Doesn’t matter if they are upcharge or not.

Because the definition of "real deal" has always been a not-watered-down, premium aftermarket product made "in house", and the 6.0 and 6.5 Smoke Greens are "technically" watered down versions of the 6.5TX, which is a profile that the entire line would have likely been several years ago if it weren't for the push to blur the lines between OEM and aftermarket shafts. Bottom line, the Smoke Green line contains two completely different shafts. One comes stock on off the rack clubs and the other is an upcharge, just like all the "real deal" shafts of the past.

So on one hand, we are no longer seeing explicitly "Made for Titleist" or "Made for Callaway" cheap mass produced shafts with lower quality materials, but on the other we are starting to see "cheaper" shafts become part of the core lineup of a shaft. The shafts are cheaper due to "overseas" manufacturing, but by all accounts are using better or even the same materials, which is definitely good. But we still have a line being drawn within the lines. Lets wind the clocks back 10 years and look at it this way:

When Mitsubishi released the second generation Diamana line, you had a Japanese made shaft made with high quality materials from R to X flex. The same is true today with the 4th generation Diamana line, all premium shafts. But NOW, we have lines that are built completely differently based on flex, so instead of "made for" and "real deal" being separated by an entire product line, it is now separated by flex. Within the Diamana PLUS line, the Tensei AV line, some of the Kuro Kage lines, the Aldila Rogue line, the HZRDUS Smoke line, and probably others that I am missing, "TX" flex is a different version altogether and in many ways is the "real deal" shaft now in terms of materials. It certainly isn't the gap it once was, but you still aren't getting a $300-$400 shaft stock on your driver.

From a business standpoint, it is a somewhat cold but practical change. Why use the more expensive materials on the softer flexes when there won't be much, if any benefit? And why use the same, more expensive labor? Previously we were paying a premium for a high quality product built in either the US or Japan. Now we are in a weird transitional phase where the same premium is being charged for a shaft made in China/Vietnam, and since there is very little transparency, we don't know exactly what we are getting here.

Only going to address the fort paragraph. PX offers different flexes in each of their shafts including 6.5TX in the smoke yellow. The 6.0 and 6.5 aren’t watered down versions of the TX they are another flex offering in the same model line.

watered down would be what is happening with the ventus shaft in the SIM drivers that has a completely different makeup from the real deal ventus with velocore.

Ordering the SIM with a hzrdus smile green 60 or 70 in either 6.0 or 6.5 flex the person is getting the real deal shaft not a watered down version of the smoke green 60 or 70.

Just to play devil's advocate, then why does PX send their "Small Batch" product to fitting studios and promote those on their website as the "real" offerings when none of the OEMs carry "Small Batch" product? For instance, why can I get a free HZRDUS Yellow in an Epic Flash or my Srixon driver yet I have to pay $250+ for a "handcrafted" version of the same model? Shouldn't that be free as well? It's the same thing right? Obviously if the OEM has to charge that much extra for it the shaft manufacturer is charging them extra due to some R&D, manufacturing, or material costs hidden in the background. Surely it doesn't cost $250 for an extra logo near the butt and some yellow paint, right?

I see this as nothing more than brand marketing like what Taylormade did with the R9-SLDR product. PX wants the every man to think they are playing the same shaft as the pros, so they put it on their website, paint them the same, and get them in the hands of the OEMs. Then Joe Weekend who picked up 15 yards of carry over his 6 year old driver he can brag to his buddies that he plays the same shaft as Cameron Champ, despite the clear difference in ability and speed. Taylormade did the exact same thing when they painted all of the tour and TP shafts to look exactly like the retail offerings even if some shafts were from different manufacturers, you had Oban painted the same as Fuji and Mitsubishi. To the average shmoe from a distance, there's DJ hitting the same shaft I have in my driver...wow...I'm better than I thought and TM really makes some great product if he can use the stock shaft.

Tomato, tom-ato to me.

The handcrafted vs non was due to the production capabilities of the SD staff time produce the hc versions. They could only produce something like 60 shafts/person (I don’t remember the actual number they stated) where as the non hc were mass produced in the thousands per day overseas. Got to recoup the cost of labor for the crew that did the hc. But yes for the most part the hc was a marketing thing more than anything else. Small batch to an extent is the same thing.

I don’t recall which thread it was in or if it was from another site but Don Brown from PX confirmed the smoke green is the real deal in the sim

I agree with the bit about the Ventus, actively removing something like the Tensei CK vs CK Pro is definitely "watered down", but with the HZRDUS I think its a matter of semantics and a lack of information. The Smoke Green 6.0 and 6.5 profile is almost identical to the Smoke Black, just a slightly stiffer butt, which to me sounds like they used that new Hexcel fiber in a small portion of the handle, whereas the 6.5TX is significantly stiffer throughout, which seems like they might be using more of that material. That follows a similar formula as the CK vs CK Pro Tensei shafts.

But thats all speculation, and its really not that important I guess, i'm just frustrated with how little product transparency there is.

Thankfully it does seem that the quality of OEM shafts is much better than it was in previous years.

I guess I see it like this: the Smoke Green is offered in 6.0 and 6.5 flexes. That is what is being offered in new OEM releases (Sim and SpeedZone). The Hulk, a different profile associated with smoke green is only available in 6.5TX small batch which is not being offered in program for new OEM releases even at upcharge price.

Yup

The difference is that the HC have tighter tolerances, like the difference between Dynamic Gold and Dynamic Gold tour issue. The shafts are made the same way. The non handcrafted version still has to be rolled around a dowel by a human then they feed it into the rolling machine. They were making the HC version in San Diego, which would account for some of the price due to labor costs, now they are made overseas as well. If you can throw a paint job on a certain number of shafts and sell them for an extra $250, why wouldn't you? Hand crafted, small batch, crafted by hand, etc is hot right now.

BTW the Handcrafted Black is the stock shaft in Srixon Z785 drivers.

Since I apparently can't use quotes from other threads on golfwrx anymore, a screenshot will have to do. Truetemper confirmed that the smoke green in the new TM drivers is the same shaft other than the finish.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19287861#Comment_19287861

The Smoke Greens are the real shafts. TM is offering the 6.0 and 6.5 flexes, not the 6.5TX as stock. 6.5TX is available for OEMS to buy for custom.

Nice. Wasn't able to find that thread before posting this.

I also noticed that the Smoke Green 70 cannot be 'soft stepped' 1" on TMs custom configurator, while the 60g version can. This leads be to believe that TM tips the 60g version 1" and puts the 70g version straight in. Anyone think that's correct or am I missing something.

Would think so, yes. Can someone confirm this?

Confirmed - just go and build it online and you can validate.

What are you thoughts on how the profile of the HZRDUS green is vs a Tensei Pro White?

To me the hzdus feels more one piece. So stiffer in the handle.

pro White is softer in the handle, stiff mid and stiff tip

Thanks, that is the thought I had in the tip area but the handle info is good to know. I actually just hit the SIM in the hzrdus green this past 2 hours and the numbers on ball speed and carry were a little bit better than the PXG 0811X with a White Tensei pro I was fitted for on yesterday.

I don feel that in the SIM the $250+ is worth getting the tensei pro white when the hazardous green gave similar numbers in the SIM. the apex was slight lower with the HZDUS thus slightly more role but that really depends where you are playing and what time of year.

So from my fittings it is either:

PXG 0811x 10.5 with Stiff Tensei Pro White 6 S (+ $125 Shaft + $395 Driver Military pricing = $520)TM SIM 10.5 with Stiff 6.0 HZRDUS Green 70 ( $475.99 with Military discount)Price is relatively the same for I get Hero Military pricing on PXG and get military disc on Taylormade.

Higher launching with lower spin is what I would go towards.

like you said roll is dependant on course conditions.

if you can carry bunkers and trouble that trumps everything

ideally but height i have no issue with so I need a take that down a notch but loose the spin. carrying etc is not an issue. I have a near negative angel of attack on driver which gears my backspin thus height up. I have no issue with height so through past fittings and type drivers I have used over the years is to get a higher deg head, 10.5 to aid final dynamic loft but with a low launch / low spin or a mid launch low spin shaft as I prefer a more boring type trajectory. these combos of head, spin and lower spin shaft tend to eqaul a mid flight with spin around 2500-2800 for me.

I live an play in massachusetts so wind even in summer is usually a constant thus I tend to play the mid height and roll vs high.

I am stuck between those 2 drivers and think I am leaning SIM because when I swung a little harder, I felt that the HZRD green was still on track and did not deflect much and I had pretty good dispersion with that shaft. But the Tensei did feel smoother and dispersed well also, just a few yrds higher in the air.

Tough decision. Thank for the convo and info.

You are incorrect on Srixon. Even with the price drop to $299 you can have the Yellow HC 65 with no upcharge

Either way, the 6.5 smoke green 70 in my 3 wood and 5 wood flat out perform. I can really go after it and is more anti left than the smoke black that was in my 3 wood last year. Also pumped on the Driver with the smoke green 60... its been ordered and on its way. They are very high quality shafts IMO and with no up charge its a no brainer for me.

Just a few comments to add to this discussion. First 18 with Sim i played Pro white 60TX, results were just slightly better than ok. I ordered with the Smoke Green 6.5 as I had the PW already in my M5. Threw the smoke green in yesterday and higher flight but distance was better and dispersion as well. Again, super small sample selection but FWIW smoke green has earned some playing time for me going forward.

Good stuff thanks. I went with the SIM with hzrdus green.