"Low launch" shafts go higher for me?

I'm a low ball hitter. There's no two ways about this. I hit down steep on the ball and have never had a problem with spin. Irons and woods come out flat and boring. I have what my fitter called an aggressive transition and a somewhat late release. To give me better launch, he fit me into more tip stiff shafts which successfully raised my launch quite a bit.

I'm trying to get smarter on club make up, specifically when it comes to shafts. I researched the shafts he fit me into and have also used many manufacturers' shaft selector wizards and everything recommends low to mid launch shafts with low spin to give me a higher trajectory. I don't understand the science enough for this to make sense.

My question is, why do I get higher launch with a low launch/low spin shaft?

I’m the same way. It’s how a shaft loads and unloads affecting your dynamic loft with your particular swing.

I hit a Tensei CK Pro White higher in 70TX than it’s Blue counterpart, even in lighter weights or flexes.

There could be a few reasons, but one thing that can happen with aggressive transition, late release guys like you is shaft lead deflection moving your strike point up. All shafts deflect forward when approaching impact, adding dynamic loft. Your typical low launch/spin shaft will deflect less, adding less dynamic loft, but also effectively lowering the position of the head slightly at impact. Here is a visualization of what lead deflection looks like (ignore the Toe-down deflection):

That deflection is present right before impact, and as you can imagine, more lead deflection = more loft and also potentially a lower strike point, which lowers launch and raises spin. Your delivery has to be very consistent and aggressive to really see the differing results, but with less of that deflection can come a higher strike point, which raises launch and lowers spin, two things that are perfect for someone with a negative AoA.

It also could just be as simple as something in your swing changing slightly in response to the feel of these lower launch shafts.

Could be your brain senses the stiffer profile and your swing alters slightly so that you add more dynamic loft because if you didn't you'd end up launching it way too low.

This makes a lot of sense and the visual representation really helped. My driver strike is now in the middle of the club face and halfway between dead center and the top of the face. So high center. That achieved what I was trying to accomplish with my current driver, which was to launch higher and bring spin down.

Follow up question. All the manufacturers have seemed to produce great drivers this year so I'm hunting for my next driver (last fit was over a year ago and he fit a shaft for my driver that is now going on three years old). Since I am a negative AoA guy with driver, what type of driver head would I have the best performance from when hitting dead center? I've always gone for drivers marketed as max forgiveness to help with mishits, but these are always drivers with more spin. I assume I'd always have to hit high on the face to get better performance from these. Would a lower spin model be more ideal? Someone also explained loft to me before but I got a little confused. They said negative AoAs should go with LESS loft, even though instinctually I would think more loft. So let's say a low spin model with less loft is the right fit. Would I still need the same shaft profile?

I know, lots of questions lol. I'm just trying understand golf theory. I know these aren't absolutes and another fitting can pinpoint what I need. I'm just trying to understand how all of this works!

A shaft can change bal,l flight, or make a influence on ball flight by its specs, and each spec FORCES the player to "change something" in the way he swing the club.

If we did not change our swing, and we have some load and a late release, shafts would have been "high to low" launch on a linear line as they go stiffer - Soft more bending, stiff less bending, and shaft bending is added or reduced dynamic loft.

The problem is that we are humans, we are not able to do things "the same way" no matter club specs, any change of club spec FORCES the player to make a change in his swing, and by that, delivery of the club. To start with, ONLY players with some load and a late release will see a difference from the profile itself, while all other get the shafts influence on ball flight by how it feels, so the feel factor is important.

Ball flight is really a LOFT issue, so i prefer to use the shaft for FEEL and SWING reasons, NOT ball flight.

My own fitting concept VISUAL FITTING is based on that knowledge - FEEL as "trigges" for how the player swing the club, you find more info about it in my DIY driver tune up, and the chapter about VISUAL FITTING where im describing how it works, what we look for and how to tune it up.

Here is the link to my fitting concept VISUAL FITTING.https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/7871739/#Comment_7871739

It sounds like your strike is exactly where it needs to be for how you deliver the club, and that will factor in to the discussion around driver heads and forgiveness.

When it comes to spin reduction and forgiveness, there is always a trade off. Where you are striking it now (high center) is the spot to realize the most possible spin reduction on a "low spin" driver. Even more so if you're just slightly toe side as well. The problem is, the properties that make a driver low spin are the same ones that make it less forgiving, and that is vertical gear effects. Without going too far down the rabbit hole, vertical gear effects are the force that cause low strikes to have higher spin and high strikes to have lower spin. The strength of these effects are tied to the driver head's MOI, which we consider to be the measure of forgiveness. Lower MOI drivers, when struck high center, are going to be the lowest spinning due to stronger vertical gearing. The tradeoff is that lower MOI means stronger gearing EVERYWHERE, so low strikes will now spin up a lot more and heel/toe strikes will slice and hook more. As you increase MOI, that picture begins to flip. Your higher strikes don't knock off as much spin, but all the other mishits are more stable. I hope that makes sense!

Now we have to consider a few things with loft and head type. Truly dead center sweet spot strikes have no gear effects applied, so MOI is not as relevant there. If you were to take 5 completely different drivers and digitally match them for loft and weight, use the same shaft, and put them on a robot that hits the sweet spot exactly every time, you would see little to no performance difference. Higher MOI drivers can deliver more loft as the further back CG can induce slightly more forward shaft deflection, but that is a pretty minor factor. We are also not robots and will never strike exactly the same place every time, so we have to work around what the "misses" are and where they are typically located.

Regarding loft, this comes down to your individual swing and how much dynamic loft you present at impact. Generally speaking, negative AoA players present less loft and will require more static loft on the head to hit the right launch window, BUT, optimizing your strike the way you have in the high center can get you that extra launch so it will depend on exactly what your numbers are now. Can you give a rundown of your current driver specs and what your impact and flight tendencies are?

Lastly, regarding shaft, that should be considered more for how it works with you and your swing and less about its supposed launch and spin characteristics. The phrase "shafts are dance partners" gets thrown around and it is very accurate. Head strike location and driver loft are going to be by FAR the biggest contributors to launch and spin, and the launch/spin properties assigned to shafts are generalizations at best. If stiffer tipped, low launching shafts help you strike the ball better then that is the place to stay. You can experiment around with different designs and materials within the "low launch" shaft category to dial in feel as well.

I tend to have this happen to me. It’s like an automatic adjustment to hit it higher, rather than my normal swing.

This is good stuff. I could "see" myself and what you and other fitters would see when swinging. I appreciate the feedback. I'm going to try to remember some of my flaw cues (such as getting big eyes in transition) and what the fix is for my next fitting. It'll be cool to see the fitter working my fit while hopefully being able to realize why he's tweaking certain things. Great stuff

Your explanations are truly top notch. Makes things very easy to understand. It makes sense with the higher MOI drivers reducing the gear effect all over the face. I need that help so I'll make sure to stay in my lane and not swerve over into the low spin heads lol.

My current setup is a Titleist 917D2 at 9.5* (A1 setting) with the 12g weight in the draw setting. It has an Aldila NV2KXV Green 65-S. My swing speed is around 95-100. Carry can range between 240-260. I'm hitting with a slight draw at the moment and my miss is a straight block to the right. I don't know my face to path, dynamic loft, or spin numbers at the moment. My AoA is close to -2 but can go to as steep as -4. My strike location is usually high center to high toe. It seems impossible to catch it anywhere low on the face (tried different tee heights but just can't get comfortable over the ball). I'll occasionally get a hook, but it usually just falls out of the air before it gets into too much trouble. I truly have no idea where I'm striking this nasty shot on the face. It's quite ugly lol. I'd like to eventually get some level of launch monitor that'll tell me what my face is doing. One day.

With the shaft he gave me (a budget option at the time since I was coming off an injury and knew I'd probably change heads soon), it has significantly and positively impacted launch and dispersion. My biggest gripe is that I can't feel the head through my swing. Because I can't, I feel like I really have to get after it on my downswing. I definitely feel like I overswing my driver and this causes a lot of inconsistencies. The performance would be nice in a shaft I can feel better. Every bone in my body wants me to smooth out my swing. Smooth is fast!

Thanks for the kind words, i'm glad it was helpful and easy enough to understand!

The 917D2 is actually a pretty good fit for what it sounds like you're doing. It is pretty "medium" in terms of both MOI and CG location. It is a very good "jack of all trades" option I would say, and based on your clubhead speed you are getting quite a bit out of it. Your AoA isn't anything crazy, you're right about where Brooks Koepka lives. The only thing that may be hurting you slightly is the CG bias of the driver. The 917D2 is a moderately draw biased head, which means that the CG is shifted a bit towards the heel. The gear effects I mentioned before come in to play when you miss the sweet spot, and by having a slightly draw biased driver in a draw setting, you are moving the sweet spot away from where you normally strike it. This will both encourage a draw via horizontal gear effects but will also decrease your stability. The high toe hotspot is great for efficiency but can become dangerous on a draw biased driver. Once you stray just a little too high and a little too toe side, that slight draw can become a drop kick hook in a big hurry, and that explains your bad miss.

If I had to hazard a guess based on the numbers you are getting, you're probably living in a pretty optimum "low/mid spin" window that becomes too low spin on your miss hits. Backspin is a stabilizing factor in ball flight, take too much of it away and the dreaded hook comes into play a lot easier. Its the origin of that old Trevino phrase "you can talk to a slice but a hook won't listen". That is because a slice has spin and stays in the air, whereas a hook is almost always a knuckle ball that dives left and down.

So what can you do about that? I see two solid options, one of which can help kill two birds with one stone. You mentioned not being able to feel the head very well through the swing, and the Aldila 2KXV Green, like the rest of the line, is a fairly high balance point (counter balanced) shaft. This may have caused you to lose a bit of that head feeling, and the solution is simply to add a little weight. I'd recommend picking up the 14g and 16g Draw/Fade weights and testing them out in the "Fade" position. All other factors being equal, this will do three main things;

Give you a better sense of the head throughout the swing, with the 16g obviously having the biggest impact. Shift the CG slightly more towards your strike point, increasing efficiency and decreasing the dreaded hookIncrease MOI slightly, which will also decrease the hook tendencies on toe strikesThese won't be huge changes, and likely the increased sense of the head will be the most noticeable one, but these are all those little fine tuning touches that help minimize your weaknesses and maximize your strengths. You may also notice your draw straighten out slightly so you'll have to work with/around that if it happens. The Neutral weight may end being preferable in that case.

Regarding any future upgrades, the TS2 would be a logical next step as it is a pretty big jump in MOI while also being lower CG, so you'd likely see your spin window stay roughly the same. Many of the PING offerings including the G400 Standard would be great as well for similar reasons. As for shafts, if you wanted to stay with the same profile but upgrade for more exotic material construction and potentially better feel, the Aldila "Green" line is the same profile as all of the Aldila Rogue Silver variations, and you also have the Tour Green as a lower cost option. I hope that is helpful!

All of that is extremely helpful! The dropkick makes a lot of sense and is something I definitely need to sort out. Luckily, it's not an out of bounds killer, but it almost always makes a bogey my par.

I used to play a fade where my miss would become an OB slice. I changed from a neutral weight to putting it in the draw setting to limit my miss. Since then, I've learned out to come more from the inside to give me more of a draw. It makes sense now that I can overcook it more easily with my settings. I'll definitely try your recommendation with the heavier weight and toy around with it both in the fade and neutral setting. That's way cheaper than I new driver! I had no idea that head was naturally slightly draw biased to begin with. The noob in me (when it comes to understanding equipment) always assumed all non-D-type clubs begin in a naturally neutral setting and then we can either manipulate them with weights or neck settings. That's good to know! I wanted the TS2 when it first came out but the 917 was still too new to justify a change.

This leads me to my next question. You knew things about both the 917 and TS2 heads that marketing doesn't tell the consumer and that I can't find elsewhere, when it comes to natural CG and MOI settings. Is there a trusted place where I can find this information on different heads or is this something that simply your experience tells you? I ask because as new drivers hit the market, it'd be nice to kind of know what CG and MOI fits me best and be able to reference what clubs fall into that category. Like if I knew where I need to be on a chart to optimize my personal performance, I could reference something to see if Company X's new driver is something I should even consider playing, or maybe their Max or Extreme model fits me better. I found it interesting you mentioned the G400 instead of the G400 Max. I assume this is based on your knowledge of their respective numbers.

I also greatly appreciate your shaft recommendations. When looking at new clubs, or even maybe a used TS2 or Ping, it's helpful to see which ones have a shaft that's similar in profile to what's working. I definitely want to get a good head and then get some more experience with shafts this year to find something that both performs well and that I can feel and time better. When I can get in the fairway off the tee, I can easily be a single digit handicapper (I'm a 9.9 at the moment thanks to a really great day on a pretty tough course). But I usually sit around a 12 mostly because of poor tee shots. It's my goal this season to just find more fairways. All of this information is one more step in the right direction!

Yeah when you mentioned a slight draw with your miss being a straight push, I figured that meant you were coming more from the inside. The fade bias weight setting on the 917 drivers is fairly subtle, much smaller than something like the M-series Taylormade woods. And that is not a bad assumption regarding CG placement, it would be nice if more drivers were neutral but in truth they are all over the place. The "D-Type" style drivers are always pretty heavily draw biased, but everything else is a pretty mixed bag. A fun example is the M5 which is so fade biased that it takes putting one of the weights all the way in the draw position for the club to actually be neutral.

All of this information is available if you google "Driver CG Report 2019". Lots of detailed specs there of all the top drivers going back to 2015. Read up on the supplemental material they provide and you can use all their data to map out drivers to test and figure out where your preferred areas are. Regarding the G400 over the G400 MAX, the tricky thing is that when MOI gets extremely high, like with the MAX, you lose a good bit of that spin reduction from higher strikes that may be important to your current launch conditions. It may still be worth testing, but its why I mentioned the G400 over the MAX.

I've been referencing the Driver CG reports for awhile now, feel free to ask if you have any questions about them. ?

I tend to hook stiffer shafts with stiff butt ends. Dunno why. My body just doesn't feel the shaft if flexing and bending in tune with my rhythm and my body just doesn't react well to that. The clubfitters always thought the shafts were too soft for me. Then I started gettign into bend profile of shafts as opposed to X or S. I have always been an X player but the difference is night and day in my driving when I have the right shaft as aopposed to one that gives good numbers on Trackman but feels awful for my swing makign me put bad swings on it.

High launch can go lower and vice versa. All depends ont he individual and how they react to the feel of it and how that then causes them to adjust subconsciously

Great stuff. Those charts are wild! Different heads are all over the map. If you know what you're looking for, this could be a fantastic tool to find something that works (or would work better) for you. I might just adjust my driver weight settings like you mentioned this year and then just test a bunch of heads to see if I can find a common theme as to what works best for me. Then I'll be able to map out some commonalities on these charts to really pinpoint what basic themes work for me. Once I do that, I should be able to significantly narrow down not only what looks, feels, and sounds great, but what will perform for me. Learning and understanding is nearly as much of a passion as playing for me. I appreciate you getting me pointed in the right direction. Let the games begin!

That sounds like a great plan! Also keep an eye (literally) on things like face angles and overall shapes and how they influence what does and does not work for you. Getting your head down into the weeds with data can be really powerful, but don't let it steer you too far away from what just flat out looks and feels good to you. Sometimes the best driver in the world on paper can be a disaster if it doesn't suit your eye or sound/feel right.

I do think that the initial tweaking with weights can do a lot for you though. If it does end up improving things for you then I highly recommend taking note of all the relevant driver specs so you can recreate the same conditions in your tests as much as possible. Head weight, shaft weight, grip weight, and swing weight all together can give you the picture you need to recreate the right feel with any future clubs. So many people overlook that and wonder why their testing ends up erratic. Best of luck!

Good point about keeping all things equal in the testing, besides the club head. Isolate the one factor you're trying to test. Should be a fun ride! Part of me just wants to fly up to Canada and have Ian at TXG sort me out, but where's the fun in that lol

I actually find that the more you figure out on your own, the more you can get out of a premium fitting like that. Too many people go into fittings having little clue about what their preferences are because they expect that the fitter will some how magically know, when in reality that often leads to a lot of "yeah I guess that feels ok" kinds of decisions which are just a waste. But if you go in to somewhere like TXG knowing what head weight/shaft weight/total weight works best for you based on your own tinkering and documenting then a knowledgable fitter has a much better place start. That is when you can get into messing with different ways of distributing that weight, different shaft bend profiles, and head CG locations, and all the real fine tuning stuff without wasting time on the basics since you already figured those out. On the flip side, you may figure out enough on your own that you don't even need that kind of fitting, big money saver!

That golf spy chart is excellent. I am having a little trouble understanding it however. I am a little confused as I though if the CG is low and far back=high launch and high spin? This seems to say that the pigh G410 plus CG is high in the head and far back? Would that be high launch low spin? The TS3 states that the CG is low in the clubhead towards the sole but more forwards towards the face? Is that correct? I had the TS3 and could not get on with it at all. My ball striking errs towards high ont he face and I was getting erratic backspin numbers (high then low) and pull hooks. I now recently got the G410 plus and hitting it fantastic. Very straight and on Trackman my spin is in a tight window from 2100-2400. The TS3 was boucning around from 1800 to high 2000s.

I read that guy Howard Jones post on how to measure CG yourself. I did it with the ts3 and ping and 910 D3. I found the ts3 and d3 had the CG 3.5cm deep from the face while the ping I think was 4.5cm or so.

We measure COG from 2 directions and they make a difference, even if its the same spot...

VCOG or Vertical center of gravity - The lower VCOG is, the higher will the ball launch from the same loft.

it works like this and is a question of COG on the club head vs COG in the ball, so impact height on the face is part of this.

VCOG is also whats responsible for SPIN , so if we make impact ABOVE VCOG the head twist back and eat spin, and if impact is made below, the head twist forward and add spin.

RCOG or rearward center of gravity is responsible for MOI or the club heads resistance to twist, but also for added dynamic loft.

MOI is easy to explain, its force x arm, so if our club head is 200 grams and RCOG is 5 cm behind the face we can do the math

0200 kilos x 5.0 cm x 5.0 cm = 5000 Cm2 (legal limit is 5900)

If COG is closer to the face, it take less power to twist the head so the same 200 gram head with RCOG 3.0 cm behind the face becomes 0200 x 3.0 x 3.0 = 1800 grams cm2

Dynamic loft added is split in 2 parts, the first one is a question of the players swing.

If the player has some load and a late release, the shaft bending forward will still be present at impact - how much depend on shaft vs swing, the other is a question of RCOG vs the center of the shaft.

IF RCOG is lets say 20 mm behind the shaft center at address, that head will force itself forward by 20 mm at impact, even with a early release since COG force itself to be aligned in a strait line down from our hands, like the shaft was treads in a sling shot. The further back RCOG is, the more dynamic loft would be added like this illustration shows....(offset does the same, it adds distance from the shaft center and back to RCOG)

So we can have a head with a large RCOG number who adds lots of Dynamic Loft and MOI value to the head, but with a low VCOG number. This head will have a "high effective face area" in level with and above VCOG where vertical gear effects eats all the spin that was added by dynamic loft and then some, so IMPACT HEIGHT on the face turns out to be the most important for spin, NO MATTER where COG is located.

The longest and straightest shorts is those we can get when VCOG is directly behind the ball at impact, so its important to measure and make a mark on the face where that is on your club head so you can follow your impact vs ideal, and adjust if needed.