Can't Stop Flipping

 flipwontstop ·  
flipwontstopflipwontstop  5WRX Points: 12Handicap: 12ishMembers Posts: 5 Bunkers
Joined:  in Swing Videos and Comments #1

Hi everyone! Long time listener, first time caller!

Swing sequence (FO, stills): https://photos.app.goo.gl/yC3JFpMAMv3vuvSJ7

Swing videos: https://youtu.be/tr26HfhJUwg (Six swings, including some pre-shot practice, and slow-motion replays, both DTL [swings 1, 5, 6] and FO [swings 2, 3, 4])

I've been struggling forever with trying to fix my hands flipping over at impact. No matter what I do (and I've taken a lot of lessons), my downswing always looks fundamentally the same - and it has looked like this since I started making swing videos ~15 years ago. For whatever reason, I lose all my lag early and end up fully extending the club well before impact. By impact, the only way I can hit the ball is to flip my right hand under, so the clubhead is actually at or past my hands when I get to impact. When my timing is good, I can hit the ball pretty well. When it's not... I'm all sorts of inconsistent, rarely hitting down on the ball, etc.

I suspect that I'm doing something wrong right at the beginning of the downswing, but I can't figure out what it is. In my most recent attempt to improve this, I tried to focus on getting my right elbow in front of my right hip and turning my right forearm to the sky. It seems to look good in practice swings, but I haven't been able to incorporate it with a ball.

I've taken so many lessons, and this never gets better. I feel like I'm missing something fundamental about the golf swing. Something about how the body moves maybe? It feels like I need to rewire my brain to learn where to release the club. I suspect that it's actually something straightforward, and I've probably come across the solution dozens of times - it's just something that needs some really dedicated focus... if I only knew what it was. I'm hoping anyway.

Thanks!

Posted:
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Comments

  • jholzjholz  1696WRX Points: 502Handicap: 7.4Members Posts: 1,696 Platinum Tees
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    I'm sorry you haven't received any responses thus far. Great videos and they definitely show the flipping of which you speak. I am certainly not a licensed PGA pro or anything, so take my comments for what they are worth. For the most part your swing looks great, and the problem occurs so quickly, that it is easy to miss.


    What I see is a stalling of the hip turn through impact, obviously. The flipping is occurring to compensate for this - a means to square up the clubface and prevent you from hitting it to the right.


    Now, the question becomes one of "why are your hips stalling?" For that, I think you probably need more expertise that I possess, unfortunately. Having said that, here's a good video that discusses the issue:


    Just for my two cents, I can't really see you doing any of the common faults that Monte talks about in the video. My guess is a failure to get the weight firmly on the lead foot in the downswing. As a result, your hips don't bump out towards the target to the extent that they should, which helps to clear the way for a full hip turn. Just a guess.


    I also think you might get more hits on this thread if you post it in the general "Instruction" forum. In any event, good luck, and I thought I saw Mt. Evans there in the background.

    Posted:
    Cleveland Launcher HB 10.5* - Stock Miyazaki C. Kua 50 Stiff
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  • flipwontstopflipwontstop  5WRX Points: 12Handicap: 12ishMembers Posts: 5 Bunkers
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    Thanks for the kind words and the analysis! I think you're definitely right about my hips stalling - I've seen my hip measurements compared to pros, and I'm way off in terms of how much they've turned at impact. Most recently, I've been focused on shoulder tilt and getting my right elbow into position, so maybe I can focus a bit more on trying to emphasize getting my hips around more. Maybe focusing on some separation between my lower body and upper body, and maybe that'll help me make some room to get my arms into position.

    As an aside, I suspect I'm missing something important in my lower body downswing. In particular: The idea that there's a "squat" in the downswing and the feeling of pushing/driving off my left leg... both of those concepts are completely foreign to my swing. I was watching some videos on starting the downswing with a bit of knee separation - and I think that makes a bit more sense to me these days since I'm doing a better job with shoulder tilt.

    I'll try cross-posting in the instruction forum if replies are light, thanks for the tip! And it might be Mt. Evans... You're definitely in the right neighborhood. I just never know which mountain is which!

    Posted:
  • laneholtlaneholt  699WRX Points: 96Members Posts: 699 Golden Tee
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    Flappy,

    I have not seen you video , but don’t need to. Yours is a problem that the entire world of players is afflicted with and don’t understand— WHY ????? I’ll explain BC it is not available to the public.

    In your first post you are searching for the light switch in the dark and you have almost found it . You are obviously a thinker so this is where you need to go .

    Your statement- “ I must be doing something wrong at the start of my DS ?” Well , yeah - you are . And that is where your troubles start. Next most important statement you made is , “ I need to rewire my brain to learn when to release the club !”

    OK - delve into your brain and erase / delete that second statement from your BRAIN so it can never ever appear again in that computer on top of your shoulders. I spent 25 years of my life and 75- 80 lessons before I was taught that no Human on Earth is capable of timing / releasing / squaring the face with their HANDS in 2/10 seconds of the DS.

    IT IS THE TURNING OF THE TORSO THAT SQUARES THE FACE, NOT THE ———HANDS ! And BC our HANDS are the most dominant part of the Human structure they DESPERATELY desire to roll over, turn down and ruin your shot. That’s what they do and they are very good at it. They are genetically designed in your body to perform millions of everyday task for you most of which are NATURAL - in our subconscious! However, the golf swing is anything but NATURAL. It is a learned action . Nothing in our genetic design recognizes the golf swing. We have to teach our HANDS to perform a task that is totally foreign to human genetics - AND that is - NOT TO RELEASE the shaft / head at the top of the DS.

    And - yes . It does require a rewiring of the brain code or it will always be the same for you and others. If you see any validity in what I post I wrote I’ll be glad to help . I don’t like to waste time on opinion and theory .

    Good luck,

    lane

    Posted:
  • aggiegolfer21aggiegolfer21  114WRX Points: 48Handicap: 1.6Members Posts: 114 Fairways
    Joined:  #5

    Two things. Make sure your right elbow is at an angle greater than 90 degrees at the top of your backswing and make sure it remains greater than 90 degrees through your downswing. Two, when the club is parallel to the ground in the downswing before the ball is hit (club is parallel to the ground and to your right side if you are facing the ball) make sure the angle of the leading edge of the club is parallel to your spine. These will help you stop flipping.

    Posted:
  • flipwontstopflipwontstop  5WRX Points: 12Handicap: 12ishMembers Posts: 5 Bunkers
    Joined:  #6

    Thanks ya'll. Definitely a few things to try if the weather ever warms back up here! 😆

    Posted:
  • LondonerLondoner  1514WRX Points: 297Handicap: 10Members Posts: 1,514 Platinum Tees
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    That grip looks so weak that you have to flip to try and square it.

    Posted:
    Mizuno mp h5. 4-W KBS tour stiff 2 iron modus 3 stiff.
    taylormade m2 Driver + hl 3 wood
    ping anser
    Titleist sm6 50 +54
    Cleveland 60
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  • laneholtlaneholt  699WRX Points: 96Members Posts: 699 Golden Tee
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    FYI,

    The manner in which you HOLD the butt end ( attached rubber sleeve ) of the lever / shaft has very little bearing on the correct golf swing. It is ONLY after we become fairly efficient that slight alterations can be made to affect ball flight. Thinking about how you HOLD the butt /grip should not the first priority.

    What is important however is that the *********ONLY POWER ********* available comes from the stretching of the left side ( rightie ) and back muscles which occurs when we PULL our HANDS and ARMS back around behind our torso to form a lever system ( AKA - BS / upswing ) whatever ? The BS is no more simple than that. You can try hard to make it difficult and some deem it of utmost importance. If you have ever chopped wood with an axe we’re you concerned about where and how you pulled the handle around ?

    Since the HANDS possess no power and - if we understand that applying ANY pressure on the shaft during the DS with our dominant right hand or making ANY effort to HIT with our hands leads to disaster. AND - millions are doing just that and searching for answers.

    Don’t believe this ? OK - watch any top player during their DOWNSWING . Notice that when their HANDS have almost reached their right hip pocket they have still retained approx. the same angle they formed at the very top . NO RELEASE . NO INTENT TO HIT WITH THEIR HANDS. NO ROLLING OVER OF THE WRIST. NO FOREARM ROTATION.

    OK - guess we can now go back to the grip , the foot pressure , leg drive, etc;

    Lane

    Posted:
  • KonstaKonsta  8WRX Points: 12Handicap: 8.6Members Posts: 8 Bunkers
    Joined:  #9

    A good drill would be to try and bow your lead wrist at impact and try to hold your right wrist back as long as you can. This makes your face more closed at impact and your body compensates this move my dragging your hands forward towards the target, leading to forward shaft lean and hitting down on the ball. Both of these things help to eliminate flipping (forward shaft lean makes your hands/arms more sync'd up and hitting down on the ball reduces the force of the club head after impact, preventing flipping)

    Posted:
  • LondonerLondoner  1514WRX Points: 297Handicap: 10Members Posts: 1,514 Platinum Tees
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    Posted:
    Mizuno mp h5. 4-W KBS tour stiff 2 iron modus 3 stiff.
    taylormade m2 Driver + hl 3 wood
    ping anser
    Titleist sm6 50 +54
    Cleveland 60
  • laneholtlaneholt  699WRX Points: 96Members Posts: 699 Golden Tee
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    Londoner,

    So- my first paragraph is wrong! Well- why wouldn’t you think so ? Just about every golf instruction book ( with the exception of one ) starts with how to grip/ hold the club? Next comes , “hold the head still “Most beginners chances of consistently contacting a golf ball laying on the ground below their feet is nil. The importance of the correct grip ( grip - bad word in teaching ) is the part you should place the most attention . NOT ! I think all their attention should be on contacting the ball. How to hold the grip properly can come later.

    Their are probably 25 million golfers that hold the grip as good as any professional on tour who have NEVER even won the 10 flight at their home course. Their are PGA pros who hold the grip in a not so correct manners who have won major championships Paul Azinger comes to mind. He had a * so called * strong grip and hit mostly fades . Could he play a little ? Ed Fiori used a two- hands baseball grip and won on tour .

    If you perceive the grip to be your most important to learn I wish you great success in this wonderful game. Whatever gets you to your goal.

    Good Luck,


    Lane

    Posted:
  • LondonerLondoner  1514WRX Points: 297Handicap: 10Members Posts: 1,514 Platinum Tees
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    Well now you're arguing something else, which I never said or infered.

    I never questioned that people can play well with an unorthadox grip. In fact my father played to 4, right handed, with a left handed grip.

    What I'm questioning is your assertion that how you hold the club has very little bearing on the swing. It has. You may compensate for it but to say it has little or no bearing on the swing is nonsense. Pure physics and a little knowledge of anatomy would tell you that.

    Posted:
    Mizuno mp h5. 4-W KBS tour stiff 2 iron modus 3 stiff.
    taylormade m2 Driver + hl 3 wood
    ping anser
    Titleist sm6 50 +54
    Cleveland 60
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  • laneholtlaneholt  699WRX Points: 96Members Posts: 699 Golden Tee
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    Londoner,

    I am student of the game so I would certainly like to learn about how Physics and Human anatomy are affected by the grip? How does the grip affect the swing ? I look forward to learning.

    Thanks,

    Lane

    Posted:
  • LondonerLondoner  1514WRX Points: 297Handicap: 10Members Posts: 1,514 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 13, 2020 10:20pm #14

    Physics and anatomy are not affected by the grip you have that the wrong way round. If you have a super strong grip vs a super weak grip, especially when the hands don't match, the shoulder / arms triangle restricts what you can do. Because we have joints, rotator cuffs and the like.

    In addition the starting grip (hold if you must) has a massive influence on plane. Because of those pesky joints and skeletal restrictions.

    As a student please feel free to ask questions. It's how you learn. (If you have an open mind)

    Eg. A typical example.


    Posted:
    Mizuno mp h5. 4-W KBS tour stiff 2 iron modus 3 stiff.
    taylormade m2 Driver + hl 3 wood
    ping anser
    Titleist sm6 50 +54
    Cleveland 60
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FL 5789WRX Points: 1,327Members Posts: 5,789 Titanium Tees
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    In most humans, hands want to return to an anatomically neutral position as they approach and cross the Sagittal plane. Grip orientation, especially lead hand, has a MASSIVE influence on the clubface through the impact zone, and consequently how the body (pivot) and arms need to work to return the clubface squarely to the ball.

    Posted:
    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • LondonerLondoner  1514WRX Points: 297Handicap: 10Members Posts: 1,514 Platinum Tees
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    Posted:
    Mizuno mp h5. 4-W KBS tour stiff 2 iron modus 3 stiff.
    taylormade m2 Driver + hl 3 wood
    ping anser
    Titleist sm6 50 +54
    Cleveland 60
  • laneholtlaneholt  699WRX Points: 96Members Posts: 699 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #17

    Gentlemen,

    First question I would ask — please explain to me the role of the HANDS in the golf swing ?

    Thanks,


    Lane

    Posted:
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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FL 5789WRX Points: 1,327Members Posts: 5,789 Titanium Tees
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    Obviously hands are our connection to the club. The orientation of the hands on the handle hugely influences everything else that happens in the chain reaction of the golf swing. Proper pressure so as to hold the club securely while still allowing wrists to move freely is critical.

    On the backswing (turn-away), hands/wrists set in conjunction with arms maintaining structure of the triangle. In downswing hands can be completely passive if arms are relatively connected, wrists remain supple, path is within acceptable parameters, and pivot motion is sound with no stall. Laws of physics will ensure release (squaring of clubhead) with no intent required if the other prerequisites are met. The most efficient swings are effectively a turn and a turn. Everything else is along for the ride.

    Disclaimer: individual swing thoughts and intents may vary

    Posted:
    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • laneholtlaneholt  699WRX Points: 96Members Posts: 699 Golden Tee
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    DPD,

    Please clarify something that I can’t quite wrap my brain around. In your first paragraph you state that, “ the orientation of the hands on the handle hugely influences everything else that happens in the chain reaction of the golf swing .”

    In your last paragraph you state that , “ the most efficient swings are a turn and a turn . Everything else is along for the ride.”

    Those statements seem to conflict with each other. Are you saying the hands are also * along for the ride during the DS ?

    Lane

    Posted:
  • nitramnitram WestOK, on the South Canadian Riviera  5540WRX Points: 289Handicap: -.6Members Posts: 5,540 Titanium Tees
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    Search herein for the "Punisher Drill". Do what it says and you will find a way to stop flipping.

    Posted:
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    Callaway MD5 JAWS 46S, 50S, 54W, 58C  Mitsubishi MMT-125 TX (9-iron)
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  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FL 5789WRX Points: 1,327Members Posts: 5,789 Titanium Tees
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    All things being equal (no compensations) left hand grip orientation controls the clubface. If arms are relatively connected to pivot, the stronger the grip, the faster/more aggressive pivot required. Weaker grips require a more active (intentionally hand controlled) release to square the clubface

    Posted:
    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • FuscinatorFuscinator  64WRX Points: 41Handicap: My backswing Members Posts: 64 Bunkers
    Joined:  #22

    Your grip is sooooo weak. For an experiment, try holding the club with an Azinger-like strong grip. It’ll feel weird as heck and might be viewed as a bandage, but it might break you out of the flip.

    Posted:
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  • LondonerLondoner  1514WRX Points: 297Handicap: 10Members Posts: 1,514 Platinum Tees
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    Exactly my thoughts. With a grip that weak how can you get square without "fliping"?

    Posted:
    Mizuno mp h5. 4-W KBS tour stiff 2 iron modus 3 stiff.
    taylormade m2 Driver + hl 3 wood
    ping anser
    Titleist sm6 50 +54
    Cleveland 60
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FL 5789WRX Points: 1,327Members Posts: 5,789 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #24
    Posted:
    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • LondonerLondoner  1514WRX Points: 297Handicap: 10Members Posts: 1,514 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #25
    Posted:
    Mizuno mp h5. 4-W KBS tour stiff 2 iron modus 3 stiff.
    taylormade m2 Driver + hl 3 wood
    ping anser
    Titleist sm6 50 +54
    Cleveland 60
  • dlow206dlow206  269WRX Points: 109Members Posts: 269 Greens
    Joined:  #26

    Wow, that video was a total eye opener for me. I totally interlock too deep. I need to try the proper grip, i have been struggling with issues and have been trying to get the right grip. I went from stronger to less strong and that helped a lot but this video showed me that my right hand is wrong

    Posted:
  • LondonerLondoner  1514WRX Points: 297Handicap: 10Members Posts: 1,514 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #27

    Shawn advocates quite a strong right grip, which I'm not sure suits everyone.

    This video is relevant to all interlocked though. (In my view). It certainly helped me and a couple of pals.

    Shawn has some real gems. I really connect with his teaching.

    Posted:
    Mizuno mp h5. 4-W KBS tour stiff 2 iron modus 3 stiff.
    taylormade m2 Driver + hl 3 wood
    ping anser
    Titleist sm6 50 +54
    Cleveland 60
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  • laneholtlaneholt  699WRX Points: 96Members Posts: 699 Golden Tee
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    DPB, Londoner,

    Nay Sayer here- I have attempted to attach a photo of a player who many might say is the best that ever played this game! Not sure if you can download it or not BC I am not sure I know how to post pics. If you can view it I would like to hear your answers to a question or two I have........

    Would you agree that the DS takes approx. 2/10 second. I hope you will agree BC that is FACTUAL.

    If that is FACTUAL then how much of that 2/10 seconds has been used if TW HANDS, and entire lever system still intact, have dropped down from above his head at the top of his swing to in front of his torso ?

    Is the palm of his right HAND facing directly away from his torso ? Is his left HAND also facing away from his torso in the same direction of his right hand ?

    Have his HANDS rolled over ?

    Another FACT - If you place your hand on a hot item it takes Approx. 2/10 second for the signal to travel to the brain and approx. 2/10 second for the brain to send a message back for the hand to let go. OOPS - too late. Burned.

    If that is factual - then could TW’s intentions have been to square the face with his HANDS Or do you thinks that TW was PULLING the BUTT end of the lever / shaft down ahead of the ball with the STRONGEST PARTS OF THE HUMAN HANDS - the BUTTS ( just like Karate experts ) knowing / trusting that his torso ( inner circle ) was responsible for squaring the face, not the HANDS ?

    Naysayer

    Posted:
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Jupiter, FL 5789WRX Points: 1,327Members Posts: 5,789 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #29

    I do not understand your point...especiallyrelativeto my previous comments. Can you please clarify?

    Posted:
    USGA Index: ~1

    WITB:
    Ping G410 LST 9 degree - Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green 
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - Tour 95 shaft
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Taylormade HiToe 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade HiToe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • LondonerLondoner  1514WRX Points: 297Handicap: 10Members Posts: 1,514 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #30

    Sorry. I DONT know what YOU'RE talking about or WHAT your point is.

    Are you equating Jacks grip to the ridiculously weak grip of the OP in the video?

    Give me a clue.

    Posted:
    Mizuno mp h5. 4-W KBS tour stiff 2 iron modus 3 stiff.
    taylormade m2 Driver + hl 3 wood
    ping anser
    Titleist sm6 50 +54
    Cleveland 60
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  • laneholtlaneholt  699WRX Points: 96Members Posts: 699 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #31

    dPB,

    I thought my questions were fairly simple requiring a Yes or No answer. In your precious post you stated that ,” weaker grips require a more active ( intentionally hand controlled )

    release to square the club face !” My point is - if Tiger Woods intentions were to SQUARE the club face with his HANDS it would be impossible for him ( or any Human for that matter ) to attain that position in his DS with that same approx. 90 degree angle maintained and suddenly decide that he was going to square the club face with his HANDS. That would be utterly impossible in the short period of time for the brain to make a plan and send a message to the HANDS to perform it.

    He had NO intention of ever squaring the face with his HANDS and he preprogrammed his INTENT before he ever took the shaft back. He clearly is NOT applying ANY pressure on the shaft at any time during his DS with his HANDS - right or left. The power is being supplied by his left side LAT and back muscles that were stretched during his BS and those muscles began pulling back at the commands of the HANDS , but the HANDS DO NOT square the face.

    And- millions of players are doing just that . The old worn out myth that the LEFT HAND controls the action ! .how could that be when approx. 80 % of the brain is dedicated to controlling right side motion ?

    Might want to check out * Cortical Homunculus * just for kicks.

    Lane

    Posted:
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