Jump to content

USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT


QuigleyDU

Recommended Posts

Well,

 

I wonder what they are going to say? All the numbers I have looked at show a decrease in overall distance for 2019. This report has been delayed in what I assume is an attempt to re-run the numbers to fit their agenda.. Supposedly going to be released today.

I am not really a fan of Shackleford but I do read his blog. Here are his thoughts as well..

https://www.geoffshackelford.com/

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/advancing-the-game/distance-insights.html

Driver: Paradym 3D Ventus black TR 6x

3 wood: Paradym 3d Ventus black TR 7x

19 degree UW: Ventus black TR 8x

Mizuno Pro Fli Hi 4 utility Hazrdus black 90 6.5 X

5 -PW: Callaway Apex MB, KBS $ taper 130X

Wedges - Jaws raw 50, 54, 59 KBS $ taper 130x

Putter- Mutant Wilson Staff 8802 with stroke lab shaft
BALL; Chrome Soft X

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I find interesting is that they will assess the potential of a Local Rule option that would specify clubs or balls intended to result in shorter hitting distances.

That could lead to some sort of bifurcation, but it could also lead to older, shorter courses enabled to hold competitions for elite male golfers. I am in favor of this approach as a first step toward reducing the distance explosion from 1995 to now.

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I for one am happy for this. We needed a new hot topic to yell at each other about.. haha. All the numbers I have seen show a decrease in distance for 2019. So if their stated goal is no more big distance gains. Well congratulations its accomplished.

 

I hate the idea of Bifurcation of any kind. Distance is not a problem. Set up is.

  • Like 1

Driver: Paradym 3D Ventus black TR 6x

3 wood: Paradym 3d Ventus black TR 7x

19 degree UW: Ventus black TR 8x

Mizuno Pro Fli Hi 4 utility Hazrdus black 90 6.5 X

5 -PW: Callaway Apex MB, KBS $ taper 130X

Wedges - Jaws raw 50, 54, 59 KBS $ taper 130x

Putter- Mutant Wilson Staff 8802 with stroke lab shaft
BALL; Chrome Soft X

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If DJ/Bubba/Rory/Cameron Champ/ETC were winning week after week after week, then there might be a distance problem. That isn't happening though.

Taylormade M5 w/ Tenesi Orange 60x 
Taylormade M5 3w/5w w/ Tenesi Orange 70x   
Callaway Apex Pro Combo PX 6.0
Vokey SM7 50, 54, 60
Scotty Cameron Newport 2
Titleist Pro-V1x

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think most people see this backwards.

 

Its not the long guy who benefits most from the ball and driver of today. It’s the short guys. The rollback should be about giving the advantage back to the long player , and maybe we will see another dominant player rise , instead of these guys trading wins and all getting rich. This goes for the AM level too. The 95 mph 5 degrees up , maxed out on trackman , never miss a fairway guy would have to relearn how to play. Lol.

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And did you see the 5 wood he hit on 18 that got 50 yards of roll?? Stop rolling the fairways and drying them out to concrete and the distance will drop .

  • Like 4

Driver: Paradym 3D Ventus black TR 6x

3 wood: Paradym 3d Ventus black TR 7x

19 degree UW: Ventus black TR 8x

Mizuno Pro Fli Hi 4 utility Hazrdus black 90 6.5 X

5 -PW: Callaway Apex MB, KBS $ taper 130X

Wedges - Jaws raw 50, 54, 59 KBS $ taper 130x

Putter- Mutant Wilson Staff 8802 with stroke lab shaft
BALL; Chrome Soft X

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Potentially. Regardless it comes down to set up. Slow down the fairways and you shorten the game..

Driver: Paradym 3D Ventus black TR 6x

3 wood: Paradym 3d Ventus black TR 7x

19 degree UW: Ventus black TR 8x

Mizuno Pro Fli Hi 4 utility Hazrdus black 90 6.5 X

5 -PW: Callaway Apex MB, KBS $ taper 130X

Wedges - Jaws raw 50, 54, 59 KBS $ taper 130x

Putter- Mutant Wilson Staff 8802 with stroke lab shaft
BALL; Chrome Soft X

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This statement shows how clueless the USGA is...

We will assess the potential use of a Local Rule option that would specify use of clubs and/or balls intended to result in shorter hitting distances. The concept is that equipment meeting a particular set of reduced-distance specifications – for example, a ball that does not travel as far or a club that will not hit a ball as far – might be a defined subset of the overall category of conforming equipment. This could allow committees that conduct golf competitions or oversee individual courses to choose, by Local Rule authorized under the Rules of Golf, whether and when to require that such equipment be used. Such a Local Rule option could be available for use at all levels of play, and golfers playing outside of a competition could also have the option to make this choice for themselves.

So golfers are going to have to own multiple sets of equipment to play different courses??

#letskillgolfasfastaspossible.#golfisacheapgame...right.

  • Like 1

Driver: Paradym 3D Ventus black TR 6x

3 wood: Paradym 3d Ventus black TR 7x

19 degree UW: Ventus black TR 8x

Mizuno Pro Fli Hi 4 utility Hazrdus black 90 6.5 X

5 -PW: Callaway Apex MB, KBS $ taper 130X

Wedges - Jaws raw 50, 54, 59 KBS $ taper 130x

Putter- Mutant Wilson Staff 8802 with stroke lab shaft
BALL; Chrome Soft X

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not original, Other than the report is being released today. But exciting... absolutely. This will get to 100 plus pages easily.

  • Like 1

Driver: Paradym 3D Ventus black TR 6x

3 wood: Paradym 3d Ventus black TR 7x

19 degree UW: Ventus black TR 8x

Mizuno Pro Fli Hi 4 utility Hazrdus black 90 6.5 X

5 -PW: Callaway Apex MB, KBS $ taper 130X

Wedges - Jaws raw 50, 54, 59 KBS $ taper 130x

Putter- Mutant Wilson Staff 8802 with stroke lab shaft
BALL; Chrome Soft X

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back in the day, the golf ball and equipment in general was much kinder to the short knocker than it was the hard hitter. The harder you hit it, the less efficiency you got transferring the energy of the club to the golf ball (they were squishier and spun more). Today, it is much more fair across the board with how equipment performs. The harder hitters are less penalized with the modern ball than they once were (less spinny and squishy) as well being able to realize their potential by being able to tune equipment for their best results (think spin and launch angle etc).

You seem to have more of a problem with the fact that when equipment changed to what is now the modern era and relatively stagnant regarding any significant distance improvements, everyone became capable of getting longer than they were. They can now be properly fit for the right clubs and the right ball to maximize distance where they need it and spin when they need it.

Its either that or you would be a fan of courses being MUCH longer than they are today. Being much longer would choke the short guys completely out of the tour and you could imagine we will see more and more long drive capable guys on the tour than there currently are. Longer courses make longer distance even more needed and show up more than it currently does in the statistics.

I will end with this. You seem to forget about the advantage longer hitters have with their approach shots. Given the same distance out, the longer player could be 1 or 2 clubs different from the shorter guy. They have the advantage of spin and control not to mention height of the shot.

As I have mentioned in the numerous other threads about this, the longest pro's today are limited on how often they can go after the ball at all. They have to play the odds or lay it up in an ideal spot. Even that isn't easy. It then comes down to who best executes that second shot to the green. Advantage, longer players.

Swing hard in case you hit it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

0C5VKVJUWVHB.pngdrop off on almost all tours.

  • Like 1

Driver: Paradym 3D Ventus black TR 6x

3 wood: Paradym 3d Ventus black TR 7x

19 degree UW: Ventus black TR 8x

Mizuno Pro Fli Hi 4 utility Hazrdus black 90 6.5 X

5 -PW: Callaway Apex MB, KBS $ taper 130X

Wedges - Jaws raw 50, 54, 59 KBS $ taper 130x

Putter- Mutant Wilson Staff 8802 with stroke lab shaft
BALL; Chrome Soft X

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At every level, there will always be an advantage to hitting the ball a long ways. If there WAS a distance rollback, D Johnson will still be a lot longer than Z Johnson. Everyone gains from increases in distance, although I think the top level players gain the most due to their improved access to good fitting and ability to pay for the most appropriate shaft/clubhead combinations. Based on everything I've read, the increases in distance haven't had a HUGE effect on golfers of moderate ability, for most of us the courses remain and WILL remain appropriately challenging. I'd hate to see any additional limitations on distance for the great mass of regular golfers. But I think its absolutely appropriate for the USGA/R&A to be monitoring distance, through the entire gamut of golfers.

They Ruling bodies get blasted regularly for having been behind the curve on other equipment issues, including grooves and long putters/anchoring. Its absolutely ludicrous for the same people to blast them for gathering data now regarding an issue that just might be a future problem, for attempting to be ahead of the curve.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am glad @QuigleyDU started this thread lol. I was waiting for it. Almost did it myself. I have been waiting for this report forever. Obviously it is a hotly contested topic and the USGA decision/results could be a very impactful one. I for one sure hope they either leave things alone and or they look more forward and be proactive or quicker to respond should any REAL advancements in technology inflate distance beyond what it is today. Some things that come to mind....

Overall weight of the club (prevent them from getting lighter)
More parameters for golf balls to be within to be legal (Compression, cover material friction, internal layers etc)
MOI of clubs, CG location, heel/toe weighting, hollow irons, CT of fairway woods and hybrids.

Just some examples I could think of that they could establish better limits for going forward imo.

  • Like 1

Swing hard in case you hit it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting findings by the USGA.

 

for the past 15 years distance for handicap keeping AMs has stayed flat.

FA2PDE507U0L.png

Driver: Paradym 3D Ventus black TR 6x

3 wood: Paradym 3d Ventus black TR 7x

19 degree UW: Ventus black TR 8x

Mizuno Pro Fli Hi 4 utility Hazrdus black 90 6.5 X

5 -PW: Callaway Apex MB, KBS $ taper 130X

Wedges - Jaws raw 50, 54, 59 KBS $ taper 130x

Putter- Mutant Wilson Staff 8802 with stroke lab shaft
BALL; Chrome Soft X

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just don’t buy it as a whole. Although I reserve the right to say that we may very well agree on some points though. But think about it this way if all that you say is true then answer this question. Why arent 2/3 of this site membership and the whole of the golf population in general yelling loudly for a rollback? If it will benefit the short hitter and finish killing off the longer then why are they so against it?

Callaway epic max LS 9* GD-M9003 7x 

TM Sim2 max tour  16* GD  ADHD 8x 

srixon zx 19* elements 9F5T 

Cobra king SZ 25.5* KBS TD cat 5 70 

TM p7mc 5-pw Mmt125tx 

Mizuno T22 raw 52-56-60 s400

LAB Mezz Max armlock 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think people are blasting them for gathering data, nothing wrong with keeping tabs on the sport imo, it is for the things they have said regarding the data they have been gathering and the outspoken people that have basically told the USGA to do something about distance (mostly the old timers like Jack and Gary). People like me that think the anchoring ban and the groove rules were stupid, reactionary and did effectively nothing but annoy a lot of people are why they are getting crap thrown at them.

  • Like 1

Swing hard in case you hit it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not that I object to shorter balls or limiting the weight of the clubs, but it’s really difficult to see what technologies will improve distance or forgiveness in the future.

What Is object to is rules chasing this technology and ball and club makers trying to outrun the rules. It gets too expensive to play LOL!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't speak for everyone but for myself I am 100% against it because I think it is honestly extremely stupid and needless. Don't fix what ain't broken, especially if it is obviously not broken for the vast majority, the ones that actually matter in the world of golf.

Also, it only benefits the shorter hitter if the ball is changed back to disproportionately hurting the stronger harder hitting. You artificially take away the athletic advantage of speed. In its present form, the advantage is there regardless of if the player has to hold back off the tee. Like I said, they have less club in and also do get the opportunity to uncork one here and there especially if they are trying to move up the leader board on Sunday.

I just see things in a different light than you Blade. You know this all too well.

Swing hard in case you hit it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The most important effect is that the current style of play actually creates an equipment-induced parity that works against the most skilled players achieving separation from the rest. This has been Jack Nicklaus’ observation for many years, and it’s no accident that he has long been the biggest advocate of rolling back the golf ball, both from the perspective of a player and a course architect.

  • Like 2
Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems to me that they are way too late. Most courses have already adapted.

Titleist TSi3 8° - HZRDUS Smoke Blue RDX 60TX

Titleist TS3 15° - HZRDUS Black (Hand Crafted) 70TX

Titleist 818 H2 19° - Tensei Pro White 100TX

Ping i200 - SteelFiber i125x

Edison - SteelFiber i125s

LAB DF 2.1 Armlock - LAGP

Snell MTB-X

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everyone professional event should require use of the same golf ball, provided by the tournament host/governing body/tour. Just like they do in pro tennis, pro basketball, pro soccer, pro football, pro baseball, pro hockey, etc

One official brand, a couple different models, all are available to everyone to practice with and use recreationally

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies
    • 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am - Tuesday #1
       
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nick Hardy - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Seamus Power - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Hadwin - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Kurt Kitayama - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Byeong Hun An - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nicolai Hojgaard - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Sam Burns - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Brandon Wu - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JT Poston - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nick Dunlap - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Alex Smalley - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pau Gasol WITB (2x NBA Champion, 6x All-Star) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Josh Allen WITB (NFL Quarterback, Buffalo Bills) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Matt Kuchar - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JJ Spaun - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Svensson - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Scott (mini) - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Taylor Moore - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      TaylorMade putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pebble Beach Golf Links (holes 7 & 8) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Odyssey putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Lucas Glover going to test black Srixon ZX5 & ZX7 irons - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Justin Thomas wrist training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Stephen Sweeney's Putting Ballistic putting training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Chris Kirk club changes - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies

×
×
  • Create New...