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2020 MGA Rules Quiz - Q9


rogolf

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9. A player’s tee shot comes to rest in the general area near a no play zone marked as abnormal

ground condition. The player’s lie of ball and stance are free from interference. During his

backswing, he breaks one of the overhanging branches within the no play zone and misses the ball

as he completes his stroke. He addresses the ball again, makes a stroke without touching any

branches, and hits the ball onto the green. He two putts. His score for the hole is:

A. 5

B. 7

C. 9

D. The player has committed a serious breach and must correct before teeing off the next tee.

 

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10. Rules Quiz posted, a thread is started for every single blanking question in the thread.

A. Bravo - pointless redundancy eventually shows up in every rules discussion anyway.

B. 6

C. The quiz as a whole ran its course, nobody adding any value to the discussion about the one question they want to have changed.

D. Take solace in fact OP unlikely to ask the usually dangerous question, "was I in the wrong?"

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Abnormal Ground Condition can be four (4) different things. In this question it has not been defined which one of those is the one defined as a No Play Zone. Thus there are at least two different 'correct' answers to the question.

In order to take part in this guessing game I guess MGA meant that NPZ to be GUR. If my assumption is correct then my answer would be B, 7 strokes, as per Rule 16 and Def of No Play Zone.

EDIT: Old habits die hard... it is of course Abnormal Course Conditions.

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he breaks one of the overhanging branches within the no play zone 

This language is not sufficiently sharpened to only have one interpretation. I think it probably means that the growing thing is outside the NPZ/ACC (I find it sad that the MGA has used the outdated lanaguage of abnormal ground condition) but with branches overhanging the NPZ.

Which means that those branches are not part of the NPZ, so contact with them is not a penalty. See No Play Zone/1.

So I think 5 strokes, no penalty, A

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If and when that 'abnormal ground conditions' mean GUR then the overhanging branches are part of that area and thus the player is subject to penalty for breaking a branch from a No Play Zone.

EDIT: Having read all the parts of Rules on this matter I conclude that there is not enough information to rule this correctly. If that overhanging branch belongs to a specimen belonging to plants not rooted within the GUR the player is not subject to penalty and viceversa. (another stupid question from MGA...)

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Expressing an opinion isn't "interfering".

The entire subforum now clogged with a zillion quiz questions and only a couple are generating much in the way of meaningful discussion. No surprise there.

Totally unnecessary.

Good news for you is I'll stay away from the Rules section until I see something other than over a dozen MGA quiz questions.

 

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In post #2 above you mock "pointless redundancy," yet you practice it faithfully by continuing to complain about individual rules questions appearing in a rules forum.

Does that really seem so odd to you? And have you noted that a moderator shut down the original thread which grouped all of the questions together?

Some people are enjoying themselves contemplating tough questions, why not just let them play on?

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The original thread being shut down - after a dozen or more threads with individual questions appearing - had nothing to do with any implied suggestion by the site this is the appropriate way to do it, lol. Cat out of bag at that point.

I wouldn't call one post in a week responding to a complaint from Beaner as redundant as indicative of very much of anything (but I agree it is pointless!). Not like I've started 25 threads about it. Nobody has "interfered" with what I'm sure is an enjoyable exercise for a few, by all means enjoy, and accept a little dissent from time to time.

Just when I thought I was out, someone tries to pull me back in. ;-)

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Hawkeye, it seems to me that you would like to participate in the discussions about the Rules but you lack both the knowledge and interest. Nevertheless you have the urge to take part in the discussion but the only way you can think of managing that is by insulting those who may have both of those.

Lame, IMHO. There is absolutely no need to post in threads you find uninteresting or you do not comprehend. Btw, that advice is valid for any kind of discussion, whether on the internet or in real life.

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"I wouldn't call one post in a week responding to a complaint from Beaner as redundant as indicative of very much of anything (but I agree it is pointless!). Not like I've started 25 threads about it. Nobody has "interfered" with what I'm sure is an enjoyable exercise for a few, by all means enjoy, and accept a little dissent from time to time."

You complained twice in the original thread (posts #25 & #28) and now three more times in this thread. That's 5 so far and meets my criteria for redundant.

But from where I sit the worst part is that Rogolf's considerable effort to segregate the questions has been a significant advancement toward our being able to follow confusing issues on each, and IMO he deserves thanks rather than criticism.

 

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Only one post in this thread, which was tongue in cheek, until I responded to a post directed at me, and of course now two more courtesy of you either asking a question or looking for an argument after I had already indicated I was happy to leave the subject altogether.

One valid criticism of the rules forum over the years is the circling the wagons mentality - no criticism allowed unless it is (this is not directed at you) a couple of people in "the group" looking down their noses at people with actual rules questions (which have to be "worthy") or making clear over and over what they think should or shouldn't be posted in this forum. Well, I expressed an opinion and no, it hasn't been any kind of "continuing" kind of crusade - you've got about 25 threads to verify that, lol, kind of hard to miss them.

As I've said already more than once, enjoy, dive in, discuss - but let's not go looking for a fight where there really isn't one.

 

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Believe it or not, I agree with that. 100%. And if this is the one time of year that those who are rules devotees relish and enjoy from now on (because this will be the new normal) ---- have at it! I'm not begrudging that aspect of it to anyone. But some folks named Francis on here need to lighten up from time to time.

 

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I respect your opinion and, as you note, if someone doesn't want to engage on these questions, that's all fine too.

The complexity and diversity of these questions, though, means it is simply impossible to have a discussion process that lumps a few of these questions into one thread, never mind 25.

I also suggest any concern you may have over this somehow influencing future processes in this forum would be misplaced. This quiz is unique, it gets some rules nerds a bit excited and interested in its content for a few weeks a year and then it's all blown over for another year. And the quiz is absolutely not for everyone, although I do think there are some genuine benefits for almost anyone with an interest in the rules to peruse them and any attendant discussion without getting hung up over it.

 

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If we are going to have an annual "rules nerd" festival commencing with the release of the MGA Quiz, and no doubt we will now, lol, go for it! I'm sure after suffering through seemingly never ending rants about music, smoking, divots, slow play, hitting into people (was I wrong, haha) there are some who will be giddy over the prospect and good on them. Who knows, if more folks took your pleasant and inclusive attitude about real rules issues, we may even see some more people feeling like stopping in here and being supported in learning about them. Thanks for your post.

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Annual "rules nerd" festivals commencing with the release of the MGA Quiz, have been running on other rules sites for many years without any issues raised by non-nerds. It's all over in a couple of weeks, unlike the continuing eon long huff about divots. The advantage of breaking the questions out to single threads is that it gives readers (ie me) a chance to concentrate on one difficult (often dizzying) topic at a time.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Mr Bean

The references in the answer are:

8.1a. Improving 2 strokes. And

14.7 wrong place. 2 strokes .

I believe that their answer is incorrect and the first penalty for improving does not apply .( Ref 8.1b (7) ). As long as the backswing was not a deliberate abnormal swing to improve the conditions ,then

8.1b(7) will exempt the player from penalty even when some improvement occurs.

 

 

 

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Not according to the Rules.

First stroke is a breach as it touches the NPZ. Next stroke is not a breach as it does not touch the NPZ. I cannot understand where playing from wrong place comes into picture if they are referencing R8.1. I could understand if they invoked 14.7 twice but this pattern as it is described is incorrect IMO.

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To repeat my original observation, I remain of the view this is a poorly worded question in failing to provide information about the growing thing - is it rooted in the NPZ or not? - there is no clarity there and the referee needs to know this to rule accurately in terms of rule authority.

I'm guessing they are ruling that the initial stroke (whiff) has struck part of the NPZ, hence 2SP, and the subsequent stroke gets the 8.1 penalty because it benefits from the previous crime. A bit like the legal/tax law principle that you cannot benefit from the fruit of the poisoned tree. But I can see no published authority for such a ruling. I would not rule that way for the simple reason that the contact with the NPZ and the CATS improvement cannot, in this scenario, be considered unrelated events. In sum, I don't accept their answer without it being affirmed by a ruling body. Any volunteers to phone/send it in?

 

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