Distance control - Rivera #12

The Riviera Country Club Course TourWatch the coverage today. If it is anything like rounds 1-3, this hole shows exactly how to force the bombers to dial it down.

The hole is a very long par 4, dogleg right, 495yds. From the tee, all the way down the right side of fairway, there are huge eucalyptus trees that cannot be carried. And up near the green is a single huge tree guarding front/left and causing trouble to any approach from the left side of the fairway/rough.

So what we see is the best driver of the ball, McIlroy, teeing it low, and swinging for control trying to find the fairway, right side if possible. He’s carried the ball 260 yds each round so far. You can very easily visibly see that he’s dropping the swing speed by at least 10 mph, and trying to guide one down there....No matter what the tv announcers claim is happening.

Kuchar is flying it 250 and hitting the fairway, getting 50 yards of roll. It’s his natural stock cut drive. Rory keeps running his tee shot through the fairway into the left rough - I assume he doesn’t quite have the knockdown squeezer fade with his souped-up driver.

It’s just nice to see carries of 260 with a driver, on purpose, because that’s the shot that must be hit in order to find a must-hit fairway. McIlroy would go for the same ball flight and shot with a persimmon driver, and probably be allowed to swing more naturally, with more power, and actually work a Titleist balata to a climbing left to right bullet. That would be cool to see again.

https://www.therivieracountryclub.com/club/scripts/custom/custom.asp?NS=PG&PAGECFG=COURSETOUR&DN=COURSETOUR

I was at Riviera on Saturday. Another defense of this classic course that the doomsday folks say is in danger of being obsolete are the greens. They are severely sloped and the pin placements are so well protected that most folks can’t shoot at them and have to play it safe. Most pins are tucked really well. TV does not do this course justice on how difficult the course plays. It’s been near perfect weather and leading score is -10 after 3 rounds. Yes these guys are bombing it out there but the scores seem to be the same as they were from previous decades.

Would love to see a topographical study of these greens. Specifically front of 16. It’s more than the poa influence. There has to be a lot of tiny ( 6 inch or so ) knobs here or there on these greens. Watched putts from same spot all day on that green. One goes hard left. Next one will fall right. No rhyme or reason at all. And nobody making a putt there from anything over 12 inches. My opinion. But if a good putter had to putt those greens daily. He wouldn’t be a good putter long. He’d go crazy and never putt well again. Confidence is half of the equation. How anybody could be confident on those is beyond me.

It’s really not that bad once you get used to it. Having to play 3 footers outside the hole is what’s getting to these guys. I’ll tell you, the ball going a club shorter than you’re used to, and being much shorter off the tee is what you baffle you more than the greens for the first few rounds.

I agree with Ashley, lots of golden age courses make you start 3 footers outside the hole. Not a big deal once you are used to it. Makes putting flat modern greens really easy.

wonder how much of the distance factor depends on the roll thru the fairway kikuyu grass ... and playing out of the rough ... that stuff can really grab a club head ...

But the guys that want a rollback don’t really seem to care about the score.They just want longer clubs hit into the greens. Somehow the self described “caretakers of the game” have forgotten that the name of the game is score and they only care about how instead.

I'd like to see the long iron approach come back but it's gone. I'll admit it. Golf has changed.

I followed Sung Kang for a few holes. This guys is about 5' 6" and does not hit it a long way. And yet he came in 2nd this week in what will be one of the toughest fields of 2020. It would be really unfair to roll the ball back for someone like Kang. Chez Revie and other short knockers would have very little chance of winning. BK, DJ, Rory would still hit 8-PW on 475 yard par 4's but for guys like Kang & Chez it would often times be hybrids. How is that fair? Gawd Mike Davis is such a joke. IMO the longest hitter probably want the ball to be rolled back. It makes the field that has a chance to win even smaller.

Stat – Club Head SpeedLook at all the guys swinging less than 114 mph. Distance matters and making the ball shorter will make matters worse for alot of people.

Agree with you on that, Kuchar is another. He seemed to be hitting driver hybrid on more holes than not.

That's true. Maybe everyone under 5' 7" should be allowed to play from the women's tees? And people who have trouble with putting should be allowed to count lip outs as holed? How about those with anger issues should be able to have a do-over if their emotions got in the way?

A roll back is not intended to make it more or less fair towards any particular demographic. It's intended to stop courses from having to become bigger or having to do a complete redesign. Riviera plays nice the way it is, but it would be super easy to put the tees up a little bit to compensate for a shorter ball too. It would also tremendously help all the courses that have now become too small for the modern game. All the courses you don't see on TV.

Last year I played about 75% of my rounds with hickory equipment. When we compete with hickory clubs, the courses are usually setup with a mixture of tees, often using the front tees as well. This makes it easy to find what is the most rewarding length per hole. I'm not advocating everyone start playing hickory, but just saying that if a potential ball role back would be put in place (and they forced everyone to play the new ball), it's not the end of the world to move up a set of tees! Sure, many courses might want to build a new set of front tees, so it's not a perfect solution, but that's at least fairly doable for most courses.

Also want to add that I do think they should continue to make a modern ball that people are free to use in non-competitive rounds. Good for the older demographic and beginners. Only one thing... they should all be made pink.

Want to play the long ball? Absolutely, here’s your sleeve of pink Titleists sir.

I find it hilarious that something I’ve yelled for years about the Am game is now being brought up as a defense of the shorter hitting pro. I’ve always been told that it will equally effect the long and short guy , and to shut up saying that the shorter hitter gets more help from modern ball and driver. Now it’s a thing ? ?‍♂️

Are they also going to roll back green speeds once they have guys having to hit long irons into greens?

The old-timers may have had to hit a couple of more clubs into greens, but they also had greens that were a LOT easier to hold and stop they ball on ....

I'm guessing a slower ball would also be easier to hold a green with. I actually think it might have the reverse problem, that all of the sudden stopping balls will be too easy. Seems like more and more of the long hitters are going for the spinnier balls as it is.

So trying to do some math here. So let's say they dial distances back 10%. So DJ,Rory, BK & the big boys go from hitting 330 yard drives to 297 yards and the guys who hit 300 yards goes to 270? #9, 12, 15, & 18 were about 475 yards. The big boys hit 7-8 iron into this green under the new scenario and the shorter guys hit 3-4 iron? Oh yeah that's going to work. The big boys must be licking their chops. Now every Tour stop is going to have 8 Par 5's per round.

Let’s try this... see the tree lined fairway down the right side.. the long hitters are neutralized (to a degree.. long is long, from tee to green) by course design. Plant some trees first. Change the ball when the pros realize they want to curve it more.

Absolutely. This exactly the point I’ve made about the club level player. Most older courses were designed with the idea of a 260 carry 285 ish total being a really really good drive. At that distance long guys saw their advantage. Now with shorter guys easily rolling balls 265-275 in the summer , the long guy doesn’t see his advantage. In fact he has to hit less driver to stay safe. It’s grossly weighted to the shorter hitter as far as help goes. It’s nice to see someone agree with this reality.

It's only a help though on certain holes, like where a big dog leg makes laying up the primary play so bombers can't bomb. On straight away holes and most par 3s, longer hitters will still have an advantage if the ball or clubs were rolled back.

Imagine a US Open at Shinnecock with rock hard greens rolling 13, 240 front, 255 pin. Short guys probably hitting 3w or even driver where DJ just pounds up a driving iron or 5w. All else equal long guys still end up with shorter clubs in their hands, which is an advantage still. Short guys hitting driver into wind on par 3 are quite disadvantaged compared to the bomber who can just sting a driving iron up near or even on the green.

Unless I'm not understanding, which is very well possible, you're saying shorter hitters would be the ones gaining from a 10% ball roll back (in all situations?)?

Same concept as when Augusta was Tiger-proofed, theoretically and then physically, back in 97. That never made sense - to make a course longer, because Tiger Woods hits the ball so far. It gives him a greater advantage over every single player in the field.

Tiger’s greatness has been dissected enough. But at the heart of it was his ability to play weaker lofted irons, one or two clubs longer than everyone else. My god, remember in 97.. the knock was that he doesn’t have distance control of his higher lofted clubs. Even his skeptics knew he was the best, but we also had no idea that he’d be the best at every aspect of the game and win 8 or 9 times a season soon. Back then, 4 was a huge win total for a year. It took Tiger only two years to “fix” his inefficiencies. Then it was a blitz for 10 years. his mind was strong, but his physical abilities are what made him special.

Now look at what we have today. Rory has been at it for 10 years, and he still can’t knock down a wedge consistently. How much would he benefit from a weaker lofted setup?? More backspin = more control.

Cool, it’s a ball distance and Tiger thread. Ah uh. Place tall trees along the fairways to make pro golf more enjoyable to watch on tv.

No I’m saying the short hitters have been gaining the advantage of help now. I’m agreeing they lose it with a rollback. Agree with rollback or not , but I’ve always said the good player will be the one who benefits from a rollback. You get soooo many wanting to defend the long guy by not wanting a rollback. When in reality the roll back helps him most.

Some of this forum seriously needs a time machine, or DVR.

Ah. Yes ok we are on the samee page then. It just feels like the ppl who argue for the roll back just want to see players hitting the ball shorter because they are mad how "easy" they have it relative to them when they played. It's so short sighted imo because when you actually think about it, the long hitters benefit even more, especially over the course of many many rounds. Scores might go up and tourney may be won with less under par scoring but the longer hitters will dominate even more.

Kuch had to hit hybrid numerous times on Sunday... Imagine him with a 10% rolled back ball. Tiger might not have broken 80 on Sunday either. Lol.

It's so easy to just slow fairways down, grow up rough, narrow fairways and firm up greens. I bet doing that even nets more money because of reduced maintenance, other than rolling greens more. To me, this levels the field more than equipment roll back. It's not even that hard to implement...

to those who love how far the players are hitting it today, are you rooting for them to hit it even farther? Riviera is a rare gem that forces great play all around. as it is, many other courses are defending against distance by moving tees farther and farther back, or when out of land, just accepting that guys are bypassing the fairway hazards and hitting gap wedge into greens. why do we think this is the end of distance increases? technology will advance. And its not just distance, its the driver forgiveness. guys can continue to swing out of their shoes and adjust swings to optimize distance because slight mishits aren't penalized like the club or balls of years back.

Riviera shows us what a great layout can give golf fans. a great tournament that reward great all around game. i think rolling ball back for pros would bring many courses nationwide back into play for pga and give us tournaments that reward all around ball striking rather than driver distance and wedge game.

yep. I see it first hand. When you play against guys as a mid am you’ll see it. Loads will drive it right up on me. Or past me when i miss one. Yet they hit 2 clubs more into greens most times if we’re playing same type weaker lofted irons. Now with the advent of controllable spring faces That same guy can hit the same iron in. This I’ve seen over the last 5 years. Both instances point to the lower speed guy getting more help. But once they pull even. Distance is no longer an advantage. I’ve griped about this for a while. And was being told I was crazy. Nice to confirm that I am not. At least not for this reason. You can call it selfish. Sure. But it is a real Occurrence, whether I’m selfish for wanting to see the advantage back or not.

the guys I’m talking about are the 105-108 mph guy who hits the high fluttering driver that just tumbles. I Swanee the world is full of them. Remind me of Cameron McCormick swinging. Never looks hard or fast. And they hit these 2000 rpm bombs that fly 260 and roll.

Color me confused. Some of you want the game even more one dimensional than it is today? Where only the longest hitters can survive? Yeah, that’ll fix ‘em. Darn short knockers think they can compete? We’ll show them. Although I am not really sure your logic is sound. Back in the days of yore when Jack was king there were more short knockers near the top. But back then the long guys did hit more mid irons than today which means the short guys had more long irons. Of course the balls spun more and the greens were softer and slower than today. The only way your logic really works is if you keep the courses at 7700 yards....and keep the greens firm....and continue to tuck the pins. I would hate to see the tour where that one style of play is the only one that can be competitive.

The old short hitters getting it out there 260 with roll? I'd love to play that course, where you guys at? My old course in the UK and the new one in Spain I get to watch north of 80% hit it under 200 then go 3 wood something, and that's from the senior tees.

You want all them to play from the ladies and/or give up and go home? Cuz golf needs them having fun