2020 MGA Rules Quiz - Q20

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rogolfrogolf Members  4306WRX Points: 564Posts: 4,306 Titanium Tees
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20. A player hits his tee shot onto a parallel hole, which is marked by a natural boundary as internal out

of bounds. Unaware of this, the player proceeds to try and punch the ball back into the fairway of

the hole he is playing, but the ball carries too much speed and comes to rest out of bounds on the

other side of the fairway, which is marked with white stakes. The player returns to where his

previous stroke was made, on the parallel hole, and proceeds under stroke and distance. He takes 4

more strokes to complete the hole. Before teeing off the following hole, he reads on his Notice to

Players that the parallel hole is internal out of bounds. Unsure how to proceed he tells his fellow

players that he is just going to play that hole over again. He returns to the previous tee and plays

the hole in 5 strokes. After holing out, he tells a member of the Rules Committee what happened.

What is his score for the hole?

A. 5

B. 7

C. 9

D. 11

Posted:
1

Comments

  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers  6826WRX Points: 598Posts: 6,826 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 17, 2020 2:15am #2

    C. 9

    2 stroke penalty for wrong ball

    1 penalty stroke for OB.

    ( edit )

    Does he have additional penalty for playing from the wrong place when he played again from the parallel fairway? It seems that should be related to the wrong ball. The new interpretations are really lacking. There probably where better/more examples in the old decisions.

    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • antipantip Members  1097WRX Points: 346Posts: 1,097 Platinum Tees
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    I agree. Everything from the parallel fairway into the hole is continuation of play with a wrong ball. One original stroke plus 5 when 'replaying' the hole, plus 3 penalties being S&D (1) plus wrong ball (2).

    Posted:
  • puttnforthe8puttnforthe8 ARIZONAMembers  3231WRX Points: 356Posts: 3,231 Titanium Tees
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    D?

    After Hitting 3 off the tee (when finally hitting from correct place) and took 5 strokes; plus the penalties for hitting from the wrong place twice (4) strokes (the subsequent 4 strokes to hole out the first time do not count.

    Posted:
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers  6826WRX Points: 598Posts: 6,826 Titanium Tees
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    See the following interpretation:

    6.3c(1)/1 – Meaning of “Penalty Strokes Solely From Playing That Ball”

    “Examples of penalties that are not disregarded because they also apply to the ball in play include:

    • Making a practice stroke during a hole (Rule 5.5a).

    • Playing a wrong ball (Rule 6.3c(1)).


    If a wrong ball is hit OB, and the player hits that ball from OB, that’s ANOTHER wrong ball, according to this interpretation. Seems kinda weird to me.

    Posted:
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers  6826WRX Points: 598Posts: 6,826 Titanium Tees
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    Playing your own ball from OB is a wrong ball, not wrong place. See definition of wrong ball.

    Posted:
  • antipantip Members  1097WRX Points: 346Posts: 1,097 Platinum Tees
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    That's probably right. Which would make the correct answer D and a total of 11. On past experience, no-one gets through an MGA quiz unscathed, including the MGA.

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  • puttnforthe8puttnforthe8 ARIZONAMembers  3231WRX Points: 356Posts: 3,231 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 17, 2020 3:38am #8
    Posted:
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers  6826WRX Points: 598Posts: 6,826 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 17, 2020 3:56am #9

    @puttnforthe8 I’m just here to learn.

    The distinction between the two does matter.

    Posted:
  • puttnforthe8puttnforthe8 ARIZONAMembers  3231WRX Points: 356Posts: 3,231 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 17, 2020 3:54am #10

    Likewise...didn't need a someone rushing to correct! If you want to tell everyone the answers then start your own thread!

    Posted:
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers  6826WRX Points: 598Posts: 6,826 Titanium Tees
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    I don’t know the answers. I’m asking questions.

    Posted:
  • antipantip Members  1097WRX Points: 346Posts: 1,097 Platinum Tees
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    I don't think anyone is rushing in to correct or tell everyone the answers here. It's a discussion, and anyone that thinks they know it all is deluded. Personally, I'm very happy when someone can show an argument I've pitched is wrong - that is an opportunity to learn and that is why I come here.

    Posted:
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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4898WRX Points: 471Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,898 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 17, 2020 3:40pm #13

    In pre-2019 Rules one got two separate penalties for playing a wrong ball only if he played a correct ball in play between playing a wrong ball and I doubt that principle has changed. In this case the player corrected his error only when he went back to the teeing area. Thus everything he did in between was continuation of playing a wrong ball, not two separate cases, IMO. We had a brief discussion about this with antip earlier regarding another question of this quiz.

    The weird thing here is dropping a ball OB and playing from there, but as that is not an attempt to correct the error of playing a wrong ball it must be continuation of playing wrong ball as stated in Rule 6.3c:

    'In stroke play, the player must correct the mistake by continuing play with the original ball by playing it as it lies or taking relief under the Rules:

    • The stroke  made with the wrong ball  and any more strokes  before the mistake is corrected (including strokes  made and any penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count.'

    Dropping a ball OB is IMO not taking relief under the Rules.

    HitEmTrue wrote: 'If a wrong ball is hit OB, and the player hits that ball from OB, that’s ANOTHER wrong ball, according to this interpretation. Seems kinda weird to me'

    I am afraid I do not understand how you came to that conclusion. Would you care to elaborate? IMO the Int only says that you need to include the penalty for playing a wrong ball in your score, nothing else.

    Posted:
  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15823WRX Points: 1,107Posts: 15,823 Titanium Tees
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    Part of 6.3c(1)/1 says:

    Examples of penalties that are not disregarded because they also apply to the ball in play include:

    • Making a practice stroke during a hole (Rule 5.5a).

    • Playing a wrong ball (Rule 6.3c(1)).

    • Asking for or giving advice (Rule 10.2a).


    i think HitEm is on to something.

    Posted:
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers  6826WRX Points: 598Posts: 6,826 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #15


    @Mr. Bean, I understand what you are saying...it makes complete sense that any lost/OB balls that happen from that point forward, and misapplication of rules with regard to the lost/OB balls, would be considered a continuation of play with the wrong ball, with no additional penalties. However, the interpretation says this:


    "6.3c(1)/1 – Meaning of “Penalty Strokes Solely From Playing That Ball”

    When the strokes made at a particular ball do not count in the player’s score, any penalty strokes that the player gets while playing that ball do not count unless the player gets a penalty that could also apply to his or her ball in play.

    Examples of penalties that are not disregarded because they also apply to the ball in play include:

    Playing a wrong ball (Rule 6.3c(1))."


    So, if a player plays a wrong ball while playing "that ball" (the original wrong ball, as referred to in the interpretation), are there additional penalties for the new wrong ball?

    Posted:
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4898WRX Points: 471Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,898 Titanium Tees
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    'So, if a player plays a wrong ball while playing "that ball" (the original wrong ball, as referred to in the interpretation), are there additional penalties for the new wrong ball?'

    I do not have the old Decisions by me at the moment but I have the clear impression there was a Decision about a case where a player searches for his BIP, finds one and plays it. Appears it was a wrong ball and he continued his search finding another ball and he plays that. but that was a wrong ball as well. There was only one penalty of 2 PS even though he had played two different wrong balls as playing the 2nd WB was continuation of playing a wrong ball. Whether that Decision is still valid can be read from the Chart but first one needs the number of the Decision but I would be very surprised if that principle would have been changed.

    What a pity the old Decisions cannot be found from the internet, they come handy all the time.

    Posted:
  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15823WRX Points: 1,107Posts: 15,823 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 17, 2020 10:07pm #17

    I know you are saddled with a Wrong Ball penalty if you hit one while you are in the process of playing what you think is your provisional ball, and then ultimately find your original while it's still in play. I can't remember what used to be, but given this, in a way, I'll note that IMO it makes sense to penalize a player twice who hits two wrong balls. In any case, that seems to be precisely what the new Interpretation says.

    Posted:
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  • antipantip Members  1097WRX Points: 346Posts: 1,097 Platinum Tees
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    This is good discussion, full marks to MGA for putting the spotlight on this issue. Mr B raises a very valid angle.

    The key old Decisions:

    15/11

    Wrong Ball Hit Out of Bounds; Another Ball Played Under Rule

    27-1; Original Ball Then Found Nearby

    Q. A player plays what he believes to be his ball and hits it out of bounds. He

    plays another ball under Rule 27-1 and then discovers that the ball he hit out

    of bounds was a wrong ball and that his original ball is lying in bounds. What

    is the ruling?

    A. In match play, the player loses the hole for playing a wrong ball (Rule

    15-3a).

    In stroke play, the ball the player hit out of bounds was a wrong ball, and

    the ball played under Rule 27-1 was a continuation of the play of that wrong

    ball. The player incurred a penalty of two strokes under Rule 15-3b and he

    was obliged to hole out with his original ball.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    15-3b/2

    Play of Two Different Wrong Balls Between Strokes with Ball in Play    

    Q. In stroke play, a competitor plays a wrong ball to a putting green. He

    discovers his error and returns to the spot from which the wrong ball was

    played. He finds another ball and plays it to the green. He then discovers that

    he has played another wrong ball. Is the penalty two strokes or four strokes?

    A. Four strokes. The competitor’s discovery that he had played a wrong ball

    is an intervening event that breaks the relationship between the two strokes.

    The subsequent playing of another wrong ball is therefore an unrelated act.

    Accordingly, the player is separately penalised for play of each wrong ball,

    under Principle 6 of Decision 1-4/12 and Decision 1-4/13.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    The Mapping Summary Chart advises:

    15/11: no outcome change, rule reference 6.3c

    15-3b(2): no outcome change, rule reference 6.3c(1) and 1.3c(4)/1

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    My conclusion at this stage: Our current Rules have failed to mention this special exception to 6.3c(1)/1. You play a wrong ball while playing a wrong ball and you apparently only get one wrong ball penalty, unless you become aware - as in the old 15-3b(2) decision identified above. I plan to doodle this exception into my book.

    Would any of our North American colleagues wish to make the phone call to confirm this understanding?

    Posted:
  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers  6826WRX Points: 598Posts: 6,826 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 18, 2020 2:05am #19

    @Mr. Bean and @antip,

    What is this chart that you both have referred to?

    Thanks for locating the old decisions, antip.

    Posted:
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4898WRX Points: 471Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,898 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 18, 2020 2:30am #20

    It is a chart where all old Decision numbers are listed and a comment is made whether that ruling is still valid or not.

    Posted:
  • antipantip Members  1097WRX Points: 346Posts: 1,097 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 18, 2020 3:44am #21

    Here's one route, scroll through and you see it a few rows down.https://www.randa.org/Rog/2019/Pages/Resources-Centre

    But a caution is needed. It's a guide, it cannot be 100 per cent relied on, and it does not answer 2020 questions.

    Edit, I've only just realised that this document has been revised, hopefully some of the glitches I found previously have been addressed.

    Posted:
  • NewbyNewby Members  7728WRX Points: 614Posts: 7,728 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #22

    #20 C Rule 6.3c(1); Rule 18.1 

    Posted:

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