Tips for how to fix_____________

 MonteScheinblum ·  
MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion GolfSouthern CaliforniaMembers  18834WRX Points: 1,442Posts: 18,834 Titanium Tees
Joined:  edited Feb 18, 2020 11:50pm in Instruction & Academy #1

This post will probably come across as snide, but it’s not meant that way.

Nearly every post on this forum translated into a medical problem would sound like this...

Calling your doctor and saying, “I have a cough, what should I do about it?”

....or going to a message board on orthopedics and saying, “My knee hurts, what should I do about it?”

The instinct of golfers is to fix the resulting issue. In nearly all cases, that would make you hit it worse.

If all you do is:

Hold off the release (Hold Lag)

Swing more left/right

Get to you left side more

Open your hips more

Stay in posture

....etc......you are absolutely going to hit it worse.

If you want to get better at golf, you have to find the first/initial root cause of the problem. Nearly all tip advice given everywhere address the problem way too late. While we might get a better aesthetic, results long term will be worse.

As a simple example illustrating the point. Someone is over the top. They get every fix under the sun, including but not limited to: drop it in the slot, swing to right field, swing inside an alignment stick, push your hands away from you and loop it back in, etc.

The ball position is way too far forward, forcing an OTT move with a vertical shaft to get the swing bottom forward. All of those fixes will create a fat, two way miss.

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  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members  1616WRX Points: 240Posts: 1,616 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 19, 2020 12:30am #2

    Yes, but...

    Curious about this scenario: is it possible to seemingly follow everything in your efficient swing videos, no glaring errors, within reasonable range, and you do the transition pretty correct, the diagonal direction down with the correct wrist action, but you send the ball pretty fast left, not crazy left, but it is going to miss the green. And your "sense" is that you really didn't "turn" through. So you say to yourself have to keep on turning after that transition, not just "plant" / shift pressure and use all arms. Next swing, really focus on getting that transition move, and keep turning, while feeling like the clubhead is going to 8:00, and bingo, nice little draw.

    Does this seem reasonable? Is it quite possible you do need a little more turn because it is possible to do the transition and then get lazy with the turn?

    I ask this because today, working on transition (which is brilliantly explained in your video by the way) I was zinging too many shots left, but I noticed at finish position I felt too high, like not enough side bend through impact. I didn't want to mess with too much, so I just told myself to keep on turning, and that seemed to do the trick.

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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  18834WRX Points: 1,442Posts: 18,834 Titanium Tees
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    Reasonable, yes, but the next time I see that scenario, it will be the first. 😜😂

    In that case there is an undiagnosed issue.

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  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members  1616WRX Points: 240Posts: 1,616 Platinum Tees
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    Maybe...or I am just not doing enough of the patting the head, or rubbing the belly.

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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers  9035WRX Points: 2,681Posts: 9,035 Titanium Tees
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    More likely than not, absolutely my issue as well. It's the hardest part of the whole thing.

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  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members  9285WRX Points: 1,458Posts: 9,285 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 19, 2020 12:59am #6

    Almost every time I have an issue pop up with flight or ball striking, the resulting "fix" is almost always the opposite of what I think would fix the issue, especially because my assumed root cause of the issue is entirely wrong.

    I randomly got a case of the 'Tops' early this year and when I went to see an instructor, he showed me FA views of me literally almost lunging forward toward target. My low point was like 9 inches in front of the ball.. But my brain was telling me during the swing I wasn't getting low enough/forward enough which is why I was topping, making it even worse.

    Fix was feeling like I stayed behind the ball for a reeaaalllly long time. Like.. uncomfortably long. Felt horrible. Fatted like 2-3 shots in a row at first... then my brain adjusted and I was making mega clean contact and also I gained 15mph club speed on my 6i (after we added in some posture fixes and better hip rotation). Went from 85 mph to 100mph by end of lesson and got my path to +/- 2 degree of target.

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  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers  3178WRX Points: 790Handicap: 2.9Posts: 3,178 Titanium Tees
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    How can I build a nuclear power plant?

    One of the fun things of being an instructor of anything(myself I teach people to catch furry little critters,most of which terrorize golf courses this time of year). Half the time you have to teach the students how to ask questions or asking them questions so you can finally help them


    Just a result of today's microwave society

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  • LyinEyeLyinEye Members  353WRX Points: 164Posts: 353 Greens
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    Also, what may be viewed as a primary, or root, cause can be an effect of the real root cause hidden to the casual eye- Nicklaus said 50% mental, 40% set up, and 10% swing for a reason.

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  •  SwooshLT SwooshLT Members  7353WRX Points: 412Handicap: 5Posts: 7,353 Titanium Tees
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    THIS! And my particular swing flaws are amplified with poor tempo....my personal tempo is slow in the vein of Woody Austin just short of a Matsuyama type.....when I'm there , I'm there

    #slowtemporules

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  • MMB1500MMB1500 Members  6612WRX Points: 556Handicap: GolfPosts: 6,612 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 20, 2020 2:08pm #10

    I agree Monte but I actually think golf instruction over the last 30 years is largely to blame for this mindset.

    Much of the focus has been on the band aid approach you describe i.e. "let's fix this thing bad thing and you'll hit it better". Golfers have been led down the path of trying to address faults and attain desirable positions in their swing. The fact that the swing is a fluid, dynamic motion has been almost entirely forgotten by some teachers. For example wasn't Leadbetter's "Faults and Fixes" one of the best selling instruction books of all time?

    Your medical analogy is also interesting. The entire traditional western medical model is built on the same mentality i.e. prescribing drugs that deal with the symptoms of an illness, rather than addressing the root cause. That mindset is so ingrained in our culture that it's no wonder so many golfers take the same approach when trying to get better at golf.

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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  18834WRX Points: 1,442Posts: 18,834 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 20, 2020 5:49pm #11

    I don’t disagree at all. I’m trying to do my small part in changing the paradigm.

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  • MMB1500MMB1500 Members  6612WRX Points: 556Handicap: GolfPosts: 6,612 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 20, 2020 6:23pm #12

    Yep. I definitely recognise that, as do a lot of others around here I'm sure.

    Dan C and Brad Hughes are others. Not everyone will agree with Hughes's views on the swing but his approach in trying to train what a proper swing should feel like rather than trying to hit certain positions, is an interesting one and perhaps a step beyond the band aid approach. Certainly it worked wonders for Brendan Todd.

    Anyway keep up the good work.

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  • ZitlowZitlow Members  549WRX Points: 186Posts: 549 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Feb 20, 2020 6:37pm #13

    The golf swing should look and feel like an athletic motion not a series of uncoordinated movements that fit the latest trends in golf instruction.

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  • AtraynAtrayn ChicagoClubWRX  2187WRX Points: 192Posts: 2,187 Platinum Tees
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    Monte is 110% correct.

    The difficult part of the equation is that most golfers, especially students just want a quick fix. Once the root cause is identified, the problem lies in the fact that if the problem is based in setup or initial takeaway, the fix may be more than fixing the root cause.

    Why? Because when the fault starts there, the compensations that result, may require a multidimensional approach to fixing it. Doing so, takes an INVESTMENT by the golfer that honestly most don't put in because you need to address each compensation in order in the kinetic chain.

    That also is entirely dependent on the individual as well because the ability to "get it" varies.

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  • LondonerLondoner Members  1555WRX Points: 344Handicap: 10Posts: 1,555 Platinum Tees
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    In my view one of the problems with golf tuition and students expectation is the belief that anyone can do it.

    Can lessons help you improve? Yes.

    Will they get you on tour? Almost certainly not.

    We haven't all got the talent to achieve or wishes.

    I know some golfers having lessons who actually need a dose of realism.

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  • crapulacrapula Golf! Members  2027WRX Points: 234Posts: 2,027 Platinum Tees
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    I got tired of teaching real fast because not enough people believed me when I told them they needed to practice. So many times people would come for a lesson and they would basically say they have been working on some tip from the internet and they want me to help them make that work right now because tomorrow they are playing in an outing.

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  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members  1616WRX Points: 240Posts: 1,616 Platinum Tees
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    Well...yesterday I must have had some semblance of patting head and rubbing tummy! Shot 76 with just one birdie (and that was from a 2-putt). To borrow one of Tiger's excuses - I hit it great but didn't make anything the putter. I missed 7 greens and made 5 bogeys. Just need to clean up around the green shots and make some putts.

    The real trick is, tournament season starting next week starting on the same course I just shot 76. How do I not make it a mental wreck and turn 76 into 86!?!? How do I "trust" the transition which is on a great trend? How do I maintain the smooth tempo and be much more in the meta awareness mind and not directing movements?

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  • BB28403BB28403 Members  4276WRX Points: 751Handicap: This post may not be here soon as moderators may delete it to free up space. Be concerned... you may be next...Posts: 4,276 Titanium Tees
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    I feel like you were trying to make a point, but I couldn’t find a definitive one. What is your advice to golfers who chase the effect instead of the cause?

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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  18834WRX Points: 1,442Posts: 18,834 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 21, 2020 6:03pm #19

    Are you being deliberately obtuse. It’s pretty clearly stated.......”If you want to get better at golf....”

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  • BB28403BB28403 Members  4276WRX Points: 751Handicap: This post may not be here soon as moderators may delete it to free up space. Be concerned... you may be next...Posts: 4,276 Titanium Tees
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    Honestly, i just did not see what you were directing us to do. It seems open ended, you address a misconception in golf (I.e. every post being about fixing an effect) . You list examples of these “chasing the effect”, problems they cause. But then there is no clear direction on what to do about the “problem” you are informing us about.

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  • MonteScheinblumMonteScheinblum Rebellion Golf Southern CaliforniaMembers  18834WRX Points: 1,442Posts: 18,834 Titanium Tees
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    Well, everyone else seemed to get it. Find the cause of your problems and address it. It couldn’t have been more clear.

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  • moko jumbymoko jumby Members  41WRX Points: 91Posts: 41 Bunkers
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    bad instruction is the product of bad students. probably what 80%, 90%? of golfers aren't willing to do a fraction of the study and practice required to actually overhaul their swing into being mechanically sound.

    so they're given the "flair your right foot out" quick tip and that's that, because that's all they want to hear. same reason fitness gadgets, diet fads, get rich quick schemes, etc etc etc exist. people are lazy and want results without putting in the work.

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    Sorry, no disrespect! I just like to learn and see what you are saying.

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  • dapdap Members  2616WRX Points: 184Posts: 2,616 Titanium Tees
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    Improving an established golf swing is not easy. Pros that dare to undertake a rebuild need to spend months of full time practice to make what only looks to be a very minor change and often it doesn't always pay off. The average 15 handicapper that wants to be single figure would need to make a vastly bigger swing change and he expects to get that done in one lesson and a range session in time for his big game next week? Not gonna happen.

    Generally speaking a lot tips are not wrong but the problem is if you change one part of your swing you often need to change another part to match up. You may then need to change another part of your swing to match up with the part you just changed. An example is trying trying to get hips more open. There's nothing with this tip but you would need to understand having more hip rotation means you need to create more hip/shoulder disassociation to prevent the shoulders opening up too much. If you change the movement of the lower body you may also need to adjust how the upper body moves. If you happen to create enough disassociation you will start swinging more from the inside which means you may need more arm rotation to square up the face.

    Quite often making one major change in your swing requires a chain reaction of changes. A single tip never works.

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  • GLF4EVRGLF4EVR Members  846WRX Points: 77Posts: 846 Golden Tee
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    My own situation I believe illustrates Monte's point. First, I live in a small rural area so everything is self taught. Last 3-4 years my "normal" scores are in the upper 70's to low 80's. Have came close to a par round just a handful of times. What I have been fighting the last two years is the feeling that I am not hitting the ball squarely. I have worked on several things & finally during the middle of last season I got to the root cause......head movement. Season always starts out good, but within a month or two at the most, the tires start to loose air. This time decided it had to be shoulders &/or hips &/or head moving out of position early. A month or better of working at it, finally just keeping my head still......not moving until "seeing" the club go thru the ball....keeping the left side of my head behind the impact plane. Finally started to click. We average a 7 month season for golf. In the last month my scores did not take a big jump, but there was far less errors than there had been previously. My misses were far less severe that they used to be. Playing in the fairway thru almost all of the round. The last 3-4 rounds I might have actually gotten close to par if the greens were not already winterized.....aerated & sanded. Granted I might have "learned" this much earlier if I had video of my swing and all of the many things that many WRX's have to have....but the journey is sometimes just as fun as the arrival.

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  • CasualLieCasualLie Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood? Members  1616WRX Points: 240Posts: 1,616 Platinum Tees
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    This mythical 15 handicapper who wants to be single digit by next week with one lesson and one range session....who? where? I think golfers are more realistic than others give credit. Yes there are those golfers, lots of them chasing that one magic move which will fix it all, but I don't think they are so unrealistic as to define "fix" as now they will shoot 72. The quick tips are there for a reason, they actually do work for a lot of people to at least reduce the damage. When you can't break 100, you gladly welcome any tip that mixes in just two more pars, or gives you just one more look at birdie...anything to escape from that 5+ hour misery (unless you are there for the tee prizes and cocktails). I would even contend there is a "tip" that can help someone get over over that difficult hump to break 80.

    Not to speak for Monte, but I take it the point is, for those on message boards, for those who have put considerable amount of time into thinking / working on the golf swing, for those who want to be better - the "cure" is not going to be found at first glance, you need to get to "root cause". That's it, pretty simple concept. You may be very close to correcting the flaw, just a small change needed, but do not fall prey to thinking the fix is obvious; get to the source. The advice is not aimed at the 120 shooter who grabs Golf magazine at the airport so they can learn Rory's hip turn!

    Even in my own world and giving the "scenario" to Monte earlier - a scenario that he rightfully replied that yes it was reasonable, but when he sees it, it will be for the first time. Tongue in cheek, and 100% accurate. And I know that, but here I go trying to manufacture a scenario to disrupt the concept, but when going back and rethinking it, here is the reality: I know I can tell myself 100 times to make sure I keep turning, and in 100 swings, sometimes I will, sometimes I won't. Ballflight will tell me a lot of accuracy whether I turned through or not. I can tell myself for the next 100 swings to keep turning, and some will work, some will not. What's the difference? On the ones I did turn properly it is because I put myself in proper position to be successful on the backswing (the cause), and the ones I did not turn properly, I was out of position. So the fix is not to insanely tell myself over and over to keep turning, it is to get to that proper pressure shift so the turn is easier to make, as in do not even have to try to make it, it's primed and happens.

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  • LyinEyeLyinEye Members  353WRX Points: 164Posts: 353 Greens
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    Ball flight is the final arbiter showing proper cause and effect. The rest is merely discussion, entertainment and, for some, posturing.

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  • MPStratMPStrat Members  1100WRX Points: 130Posts: 1,100 Platinum Tees
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    I would add quality of strike to that statement. I've seen plenty of guys that clank it straight most of the time.

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  • LyinEyeLyinEye Members  353WRX Points: 164Posts: 353 Greens
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    lol.....of course!

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  • LondonerLondoner Members  1555WRX Points: 344Handicap: 10Posts: 1,555 Platinum Tees
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  • dapdap Members  2616WRX Points: 184Posts: 2,616 Titanium Tees
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    That one tip that "appears" to work almost always never stick. You would be lucky to last 9 holes with it. When I say if something works or not I mean a permanent lowering of your handicap and not just a hot streak for a bit and then back to your normal handicap or worse.

    To be a permanently better player you will require a fundamentally better swing. Either that or improve the heck out of your short game.

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