In general, is it better to loft up or down with adjustable drivers?

 dxdgenert ·  
dxdgenertdxdgenert Dirtiest player in the gameMinnesotaMembers  1960WRX Points: 472Handicap: 13.0Posts: 1,960 Platinum Tees
Joined:  in WRX Club Techs #1

97-105 mph driver swing speed depending on how loose I am. Descending to zero angle of attack. When I’m swinging well, I have a slight fade ball flight 240-270 yards. Miss is a huge block/slice or snap hook but usually the block/slice. Typically, I’ll hit 7-9 fairways, two in the right rough, two OB right and 1 OB left. I believe that I launch the ball low 10-14* with 2000-2500 rpm backspin (from my SkyTrak).

Buying a new Mavrik and curious if it is better to go 9* and loft up or buy the 10.5* and loft down, if necessary? I’ll be going with the Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI regardless of which head I choose.

Posted:
Callaway Mavrik 9* w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 60
Callaway Mavrik 3 wood w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 70
Callaway Rogue Heavenwood w/ Project X Evenflow Blue 75
PXG Gen 1 0311X 4 iron w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
PXG 0211 5-PW w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
Cleveland CBX 52* w/ Rotex Graphite
Cleveland CBX 56* w/ Rotex Graphite 
TaylorMade Hi-Toe Bigfoot 58* w/ KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2
1

Comments

  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  10613WRX Points: 1,640Posts: 10,613 Titanium Tees
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    If i got it right you have a face angle issue, either too closed or too open at impact, so there is no way to help you here, other than saying you should play a club with neutral face angle, and try added grip size to your lower hand (plus 4 grips makes it easier to control face angle). In your case you cant take advantage of a closed or open face angle since your mishits goes both ways, but be aware of that loft adjustment on the hosel is "not done" before the club face is returned to where we came from.

    Read the pinned topic about how this hosels actually works if you dont know that already.

    Posted:

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  • dxdgenertdxdgenert Dirtiest player in the game MinnesotaMembers  1960WRX Points: 472Handicap: 13.0Posts: 1,960 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 24, 2020 4:00pm #3

    Given my probably poor explanations, is it that I come in too steep and from the outside? I typically square the face for my fade but also leave the face open (slice) or close it (hook).

    If we assume those are truths then doesn’t it seem like the 9* lofted up to 10* (albeit with a more closed face angle) would be “better” given I struggle to close the face more often than closing it too much?

    Posted:
    Callaway Mavrik 9* w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 60
    Callaway Mavrik 3 wood w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 70
    Callaway Rogue Heavenwood w/ Project X Evenflow Blue 75
    PXG Gen 1 0311X 4 iron w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    PXG 0211 5-PW w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    Cleveland CBX 52* w/ Rotex Graphite
    Cleveland CBX 56* w/ Rotex Graphite 
    TaylorMade Hi-Toe Bigfoot 58* w/ KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2
  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  10613WRX Points: 1,640Posts: 10,613 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #4

    A swing out to in with a closed face angle is a hook machine, so i dont think you can solve it by equipment, you need a swing trainer

    Posted:

    PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME PMs ON CLUB TECH ISSUES - ASK PUBLIC IN THE FORUM.

    Unless you are a former Customer or someone i already have a PM dialog with, i want reply to tech questions on PMs.

  • dxdgenertdxdgenert Dirtiest player in the game MinnesotaMembers  1960WRX Points: 472Handicap: 13.0Posts: 1,960 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #5

    Agreed. I think that the 10.5 is the way to go. I definitely have some swing flaws that need addressing and I plan on using the Watson Hanger to get my path/plane better. I can't imagine that I'd ever want a 10* loft with a closed face angle but may want a 9.5* with an open face angle. Thanks for the help, Howard, it is always appreciated.

    Posted:
    Callaway Mavrik 9* w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 60
    Callaway Mavrik 3 wood w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 70
    Callaway Rogue Heavenwood w/ Project X Evenflow Blue 75
    PXG Gen 1 0311X 4 iron w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    PXG 0211 5-PW w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    Cleveland CBX 52* w/ Rotex Graphite
    Cleveland CBX 56* w/ Rotex Graphite 
    TaylorMade Hi-Toe Bigfoot 58* w/ KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2
  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  24803WRX Points: 1,485Posts: 24,803 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 24, 2020 4:29pm #6

    That kind of two way miss is pretty typical of getting "stuck" - basically lower body getting ahead of the upper body in your sequencing. You can try playing around with different static weights (shaft weights) and or swing weight (head weight) to see if it might help with transition, tempo or rhythm. But even if it does help it's going to be a band-aid at best and probably not all that reliable. As Howard said some swing issues just can't be helped all that much with equipment changes.

    Now if it was a shot shape problem with your 'good' swings, like a chronic slicer then face angle might have been a valid way to help out a bit (but not cure).

    Posted:
  • dxdgenertdxdgenert Dirtiest player in the game MinnesotaMembers  1960WRX Points: 472Handicap: 13.0Posts: 1,960 Platinum Tees
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    So would the 10.5 be the most “neutral” place to start?

    Posted:
    Callaway Mavrik 9* w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 60
    Callaway Mavrik 3 wood w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 70
    Callaway Rogue Heavenwood w/ Project X Evenflow Blue 75
    PXG Gen 1 0311X 4 iron w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    PXG 0211 5-PW w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    Cleveland CBX 52* w/ Rotex Graphite
    Cleveland CBX 56* w/ Rotex Graphite 
    TaylorMade Hi-Toe Bigfoot 58* w/ KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2
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  • AFcelicaAFcelica Members  812WRX Points: 173Posts: 812 Golden Tee
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    Why not just get fit? Buying off the rack is for the 1990s

    Posted:
  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  10613WRX Points: 1,640Posts: 10,613 Titanium Tees
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    Loft is not whats solves or mess it up for you, face angle is, so its a question of what face angle that loft has, and if you need more or less loft for a good launch angle, but 1* as loft difference is splitting hairs since what matters for launch is where on the face you make impact, and that actual loft vary with roll on the face. Again, with your swing issues, i would start with a swing tweak, then look for a club, since both face angle and loft specs makes no sense now if you need a swing change anyway.

    Posted:

    PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME PMs ON CLUB TECH ISSUES - ASK PUBLIC IN THE FORUM.

    Unless you are a former Customer or someone i already have a PM dialog with, i want reply to tech questions on PMs.

  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  24803WRX Points: 1,485Posts: 24,803 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #10

    The face angle at the neutral or 0* loft adjustment setting can be different for each head model, it's completely up to the head designer as to what the starting point is for face angle.

    Posted:
  • dxdgenertdxdgenert Dirtiest player in the game MinnesotaMembers  1960WRX Points: 472Handicap: 13.0Posts: 1,960 Platinum Tees
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    I did. I could go 9 up to 10 or 10.5 down to 9.5. Neither had a measurable difference. At $500 for the driver I’d like “future proof” things as much as possible. Hence why I asked in general which method is best.

    Posted:
    Callaway Mavrik 9* w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 60
    Callaway Mavrik 3 wood w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 70
    Callaway Rogue Heavenwood w/ Project X Evenflow Blue 75
    PXG Gen 1 0311X 4 iron w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    PXG 0211 5-PW w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    Cleveland CBX 52* w/ Rotex Graphite
    Cleveland CBX 56* w/ Rotex Graphite 
    TaylorMade Hi-Toe Bigfoot 58* w/ KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2
  • dxdgenertdxdgenert Dirtiest player in the game MinnesotaMembers  1960WRX Points: 472Handicap: 13.0Posts: 1,960 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #12

    Called Callaway and according to one of their technical reps the face angle is slightly open on both the 9 and 10.5* heads. I’m going to go with the 9* as that’ll give me 8-11* options as opposed to 9.5-12.5*.

    Posted:
    Callaway Mavrik 9* w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 60
    Callaway Mavrik 3 wood w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 70
    Callaway Rogue Heavenwood w/ Project X Evenflow Blue 75
    PXG Gen 1 0311X 4 iron w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    PXG 0211 5-PW w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    Cleveland CBX 52* w/ Rotex Graphite
    Cleveland CBX 56* w/ Rotex Graphite 
    TaylorMade Hi-Toe Bigfoot 58* w/ KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2
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  • jeffrey rjeffrey r Members  2165WRX Points: 199Handicap: 13Posts: 2,165 Platinum Tees
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    You've got two of the best here in Howard and Stuart responding, but I'll give you a layperson's experience. I know you are looking at the standard Mav, but I have both 9* and 10.5* Mav Max heads, and especially because that is a high-launching head to begin with, I have currently decided on the 9* head in head-to-head testing. My miss is a fade, so lofting up the 9* +1 or +2 is more beneficial to me than keeping the 10.5* at standard loft or certainly going -1 in loft. Conventional wisdom is that lofting up closes the face a bit, while lowering loft opens the face a bit. Hence, lowering the 10.5* in loft did not do my fade any favors.

    All that said, I have typically found higher lofted drivers more forgiving. So, I can't rule out going back to the 10.5* Mav Max head at some point. I am still in early season, cold-weather testing. YMMV. Have fun with it. These are great heads. And the Rogue White 130 60 is a seriously sweet no-upcharge shaft.

    Posted:
    Callaway Mavrik Max Driver 9*, Fujikura Speeder Evo VI 661 SR
    Callaway Mavrik Max 3 Wood, Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI 70 R
    Callaway GBB Epic Heavenwood, Accra FX 2.0 200F M3
    Callaway Mavrik 4 Hybrid, KBS Hybrid 70 R
    Callaway Epic Irons 5-AW, Aerotech Steelfiber i95 R
    Mizuno S18 55* SW and 59* LW, DG Wedge
    Scotty Cameron 009-M Putter

  • StetsonStetson Members  2667WRX Points: 169Posts: 2,667 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #14

    You estimated your spin rates, with what evidence? If you have the stated swing speed with a negative or neutral attack angle I would estimate your spin rates are higher than 2000-2500.

    Posted:
    Driver: Titleist TS3 (Ventus Black)
    5w:  Titleist TS2 (Ventus Blue)
    3H: Titleist 818 H2 (Tour AD DI)
    or 3i: Cobra King Utility 21* (Tour AD DI)
    4-P: PXG 0311T (KBS $-Taper)
    Wedges: 51* Edel TRP, 55* Edel DVR, 60* Cally MD5
    Putter: PXG Mini Gunboat H
  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members  9296WRX Points: 1,464Posts: 9,296 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #15

    I wouldn't even buy a new driver tbh. Nothing but lessons can cure 3OB balls and a two way miss.

    Sounds like possibly you don't have the right wrist angles and come in with a very open face. Then your body reacts to this later on, stalls your hips and you flip the hands over, coming in with a really shut face.

    Posted:
    Epic SZ 9* set to 10* | Tour Z Xtreme 465
    16* M1 | Tour Z Xtreme 475
    19.75* M1 | Diamana B70
    818H1 23* | Tensei CK White 90
    5-PW P760 | Modus 120
    Glide 3.0 50/12, 54/12, 58/10 | S400 Ti
    Directed Force 2.1 or Custom EVNROLL ER5
    Tour BXS "TIGER"
  • dxdgenertdxdgenert Dirtiest player in the game MinnesotaMembers  1960WRX Points: 472Handicap: 13.0Posts: 1,960 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 24, 2020 8:48pm #16

    You might have missed it but I stated that the spin numbers were obtained from my SkyTrak unit. I was also seeing mid-2000’s spin with the 9* Mavrik head on GC2. If I get really steep I can certainly rev it up past 3k easily but I tend to be low launch, low spin with driver/woods.

    Posted:
    Callaway Mavrik 9* w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 60
    Callaway Mavrik 3 wood w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 70
    Callaway Rogue Heavenwood w/ Project X Evenflow Blue 75
    PXG Gen 1 0311X 4 iron w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    PXG 0211 5-PW w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    Cleveland CBX 52* w/ Rotex Graphite
    Cleveland CBX 56* w/ Rotex Graphite 
    TaylorMade Hi-Toe Bigfoot 58* w/ KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2
  • StetsonStetson Members  2667WRX Points: 169Posts: 2,667 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #17

    You are right, my bad. Thanks for clarifying.

    Posted:
    Driver: Titleist TS3 (Ventus Black)
    5w:  Titleist TS2 (Ventus Blue)
    3H: Titleist 818 H2 (Tour AD DI)
    or 3i: Cobra King Utility 21* (Tour AD DI)
    4-P: PXG 0311T (KBS $-Taper)
    Wedges: 51* Edel TRP, 55* Edel DVR, 60* Cally MD5
    Putter: PXG Mini Gunboat H
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  • dxdgenertdxdgenert Dirtiest player in the game MinnesotaMembers  1960WRX Points: 472Handicap: 13.0Posts: 1,960 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #18

    I knew that I shouldn’t have said “OB”. What I should have said was a few balls that are a few feet/yards into the rough and 2-3 that are really wild/deep/in jail/sometimes OB.

    Yes, there are definitely swing issues but I play to a 13 handicap and shot a 79 last season. You guys are making me feel (or I made myself sound) like a 30 handicap hack. In an effort to give a lot of information maybe I didn’t ask the right question.

    In general, do you prefer to buy a lower lofted head and adjust the loft up or buy a higher lofted head and loft down? I understand that a driver lofted up will close the face angle and one that is lofted down will open it. Are there any other factors I am missing?

    Posted:
    Callaway Mavrik 9* w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 60
    Callaway Mavrik 3 wood w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 70
    Callaway Rogue Heavenwood w/ Project X Evenflow Blue 75
    PXG Gen 1 0311X 4 iron w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    PXG 0211 5-PW w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    Cleveland CBX 52* w/ Rotex Graphite
    Cleveland CBX 56* w/ Rotex Graphite 
    TaylorMade Hi-Toe Bigfoot 58* w/ KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2
  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members  9296WRX Points: 1,464Posts: 9,296 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #19

    There is no preference. There is only the right club build/set up for your swing. My driver is 9* shut to 10*, 3w is std (static open face though bc its tour issue, so lofting up still presents open face) and a 5w that's 19* playing 19.75 (shut) and a 4h that's set to 22.75* (open). One is not better than the other... Just what works.

    Posted:
    Epic SZ 9* set to 10* | Tour Z Xtreme 465
    16* M1 | Tour Z Xtreme 475
    19.75* M1 | Diamana B70
    818H1 23* | Tensei CK White 90
    5-PW P760 | Modus 120
    Glide 3.0 50/12, 54/12, 58/10 | S400 Ti
    Directed Force 2.1 or Custom EVNROLL ER5
    Tour BXS "TIGER"
  • dxdgenertdxdgenert Dirtiest player in the game MinnesotaMembers  1960WRX Points: 472Handicap: 13.0Posts: 1,960 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #20

    Sounds good and thank you. In that case, I changed my order back to the original 9* head as the “window” it provides seems more usable than the 10.5*. Closing the face might help eliminate/minimize the right side, which I do more often, as well.

    Posted:
    Callaway Mavrik 9* w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 60
    Callaway Mavrik 3 wood w/ Aldila ROGUE White 130 M.S.I. 70
    Callaway Rogue Heavenwood w/ Project X Evenflow Blue 75
    PXG Gen 1 0311X 4 iron w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    PXG 0211 5-PW w/ Mitsubishi MMT 80
    Cleveland CBX 52* w/ Rotex Graphite
    Cleveland CBX 56* w/ Rotex Graphite 
    TaylorMade Hi-Toe Bigfoot 58* w/ KBS Hi-Rev 2.0
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2
  • Z1ggy16Z1ggy16 Members  9296WRX Points: 1,464Posts: 9,296 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #21

    Yeah every club is different... It's not a matter of just blanketing it and saying oh I always loft up or down. It totally depends. Good luck with the new club.

    Posted:
    Epic SZ 9* set to 10* | Tour Z Xtreme 465
    16* M1 | Tour Z Xtreme 475
    19.75* M1 | Diamana B70
    818H1 23* | Tensei CK White 90
    5-PW P760 | Modus 120
    Glide 3.0 50/12, 54/12, 58/10 | S400 Ti
    Directed Force 2.1 or Custom EVNROLL ER5
    Tour BXS "TIGER"
  • DFinchDFinch Members  1514WRX Points: 317Handicap: 6.2Posts: 1,514 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #22

    This. It's literally different for every club because they all start at a different "neutral".

    Here is your real dilemma if you want to get into the weeds: all that matters is how YOU react to face angle and only you can figure that out. Lofting down opens the face (compared to the neutral position, which may already be open, square, or closed). Lofting up closes the face. From a static standpoint, an open face will reduce a hook, promote a fade, promote a start line out to the right. Closed does the opposite. However, you might react to an open club face look by slamming the face closed and turn it into a duck hooking machine, or you might not ever get it square and hit high block fades (or both...two way miss). You might hook a closed face on a normal swing, then hold the face off and hit high blocks trying to avoid the hook (two way miss) You might have an over the top move that benefits from a closed face to lower curvature, or that closed face might put you in the left trees all day by turning your fade into a pull. The combinations of face angle and player reaction are limitless.

    I have played with lofted up, more closed face settings and lofted down, open face settings. I can typically hit both pretty well. What matters to me is tendencies and where my miss is under pressure or with a typical "bad" swing. The benefit of a square or closed setting for me is I can comfortably hit draws all day without feeling like I have to "try" to turn it over. Problem is, when I try to go after one or if I catch it too much toe side or if I come over it a little...the miss is left. I hate left misses and it also happens to be where the OB is on my home course. The open setting produces a straight or fall off fade shot on a "normal" swing. On days when I want to draw the ball, it feels like I have to work at it. When I go after it hard and try to hook it I get a tight draw, so I feel like I can be more aggressive. If I come over it I'm sometimes saved by some fade. My bad swing miss is a block. That means for me, there is more benefit from a "loft down" setup than a "loft up" option (given same loft) despite the fact that when I'm "on" I like watching those easy to hit tight draws...because I'd rather miss right than left and the open face actually let's me hit it farther because I'm not protecting against the hook. One of the problems of adjustable settings is it's a devil sitting on your shoulder encouraging tweaking.

    The over generalization is if your typical shape is left to right (for righty) buy lower loft and loft up. If your typical shape is right to left, buy higher loft and loft down. Those face angle differences help those shot patterns for "most" people. I always start at neutral and then tweak for tendencies of that particular club.

    Posted:
    Titleist TS3 8.75* Evenflow White / Cobra SZ Tour 3W Tensei AV Blue 14* / Cobra F6 Baffler Matrix Red Tie 18.5* / Maltby TS2 DG105 X100 / Taylormade Hi-Toe 54*/60* / Evnroll ER8 Gravity Grip
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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  24803WRX Points: 1,485Posts: 24,803 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Feb 25, 2020 8:43am #23

    @dxdgenert said Yes, there are definitely swing issues but I play to a 13 handicap and shot a 79 last season. You guys are making me feel (or I made myself sound) like a 30 handicap hack. In an effort to give a lot of information maybe I didn’t ask the right question.

    We're really not. Even the pro's on tour can be plagued with a two way miss. We're just trying to make sure you're expectations of what the equipment can help you with (and what it can't) are realistic.

    BTW I'm a 14 and can barely hit a driver to save my life. I typically only use it about 4-5 holes on my home course. The only equipment change that ever helped me manage my 2 way miss (while I work on the swing) is to go shorter in playing length - down to 44."

    Posted:

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