Least Rotated at Impact-PGA Tour Players

I'm guessing Brian Gay takes the cake, but are there others that come to mind who aren't rotated much at impact? I ask because I always hear Larry Rinker on Golf Channel Radio advocating for the Wright Balance Upper Core swing yet I see no who plays on TV look like what they're advocating.

Lee Westwood doesn’t get very open at impact either.

Rinker pretty much says everyone on tour is middle core. DJ he says is lower. He mentioned a couple of upper core Tour players but I can't remember who. His big thing is stop trying to teach people a tour pro swing when most ams just don't have the genetics or athletic ability to move like a pro. For the most part, I think he's probably right.

Side note: He just had long drive champ Art Sellinger on his xm podcast and Art himself said he was always upper core. Said he just can't move like a tour pro.

I've heard him say this about tour pros being mid-core, but isn't that telling everyone you're going to still hit it inconsistently being an upper core player? There is still going to be a lot of face rotation happening quickly and you're going to miss it left and right more than what someone who can make the moves of a mid-core player can? By admitting that most all are mid or lower core players it tells you that those moves are the best to hit it longer and straighter in my opinion. Believe me I wish that's not what I get out of it as I do not rotate well at all and it feels very foreign even after 10 years of playing.

I agree that hitting it like a tour pro is the superior way. Sometimes good golf instruction is just getting people to a point where they can advance the ball forward and enjoy the game. I don't know for sure, but I would think some upper core players can become a middle core with good instruction and dedicated effort.

I'm guessing RInker himself still shoots par or under par being a former touring pro while using the method, but I'd be curious to see his list of successes on the high end side (producing + handicaps) where guys are coming out of posture, lots of forearm rotation and being square at impact. Like I said, I wish it were the case since I don't rotate well, but I don't see really good golfers with these moves.

Ok let me rephrase to help better ask my question. Can you show me someone who plays on tour, any pro tour that looks like Rinker does at impact? I didn't label it "tour swing" and I surely didn't invent the terms upper core and mid-core. If it's noise, it's noise I didn't bring because I haven't invented any of these terms. If anything these terms or labels are a manner of describing so you can understand what I'm asking.

It's not a rail job on their work as I'm not qualified to rail on it. I'm asking a question if anyone on a pro-tour swings it like they advocate in their upper core model. Rinker himself has said that either a "majority" or near all (I really need to go back to get it 100% correct) tour pros are mid-core yet his number is 85% of people measured are upper core. The testing is not about ability is it? These are tests measuring forearm lengths, etc meaning it's not an ability thing, it's a body make up think. So from that you have to deduce that professional golfers are physically built different than 85% of the people walking the earth. This is the confusing part and where it doesn't add up.

Patrick Reed is the one who comes to mind that they label as "upper core", but if you look at any videos his hips are anything but square at impact.

Upper, mid and lower are real things, I’ve been measure by Doc and have seen him do it, so those terms aren’t noise.

My point was not to pick on you at all.

My point is I have seen so many golfers pursue getting more open as a primary focus and ruined their swings.

You produce your best possible golf swing and you will get as open as that swing should produce.

Tour players tend to get more open because they have better swings in general.

Rinker’s overall point is the same as mine. If you try and force wide open hips into a swing where it doesn’t belong, it’s a disaster.

Monte, is it safe to say that the amount of rotation a person requires is related to how they deliver the shaft at impact? For instance, if you deliver the handle high, you need to be more square and less rotated at impact than someone who delivers the handle low, (flatter shaft). Or thinking another way, the closer your hands are at impact to the position they held at address, the more your body rotation you need?

They affect each other. Your brain and body are reacting the whole downswing. Doing the best possible job to hit a good shot.

The list of variables affecting how open you get is too vast to list.

You could basically say anything and that’s going to affect it.

Wind direction

Slope of lie

Your shadow

Hitting your buddies club

How you slept last night

Are you on you10th day of golf in a row or have you been off for 2 months

What are they reacting to? There is a reason that a lot of pros, (not all), are more open at impact than amateurs. Is it that the intent of how to deliver the club to the ball is different? It doesn't matter how much sleep Rory, got, if he's hitting his buddies club, where his shadow is or what direction the wind is blowing, he is still going to rotate.

Pretty much anything that causes early extension is going to impede rotation - standing up, particularly when it's during the backswing or early downswing, will cause hips to stall (pro's that have some early extension typically have it late in the downswing so they already have opened some - think Phil). Having an open club face in the downswing. How one pressures the ground with their feet can effect whether one rotates or not. Having poor balance in the swing - just another cause of EE. And as Monte has noted, getting open doesn't guarantee good impact - plenty of folks get out of sequence by over rotating the hips early and get their arms trailing too much - so they are open but end up having to "flip" to get impact and have all the dispersions issues associated with that late, quick, flip release - Monte's ballerina 68. So have a good backswing pivot, good transition, then things take care of themselves - of course this is easier said than done - devil is in the details.

DD explains the open face issue here.

When people ask me the differences between pros and amateurs I tell them "about 20 mph clubhead speed". That's a big reason that they have better overall short games too.

Sure, but we should strive to understand how the 'best' do it and why it works so we can learn from that right?

If you have that type of speed sure. Average golfer? Not so much.

They are reacting to ALL stimuli, that’s the point. all the orientations of the club have the most affect.

Everyone who plays are reacting to all of this. That is the point. If the club is in position where getting open will create a better shot, that’s what happens.

This is the issue everyone wants to over look. If you’re not in position and the club is not in position to get open, just getting open will make you hit it worse.

Just watched a video on the YouTube of Larry Rinker talking about the upper core swing. It's very appealing to me, and it reminds me a bit of early Seve, or Henry Cotton. It also makes me think of the drill that Jim Flick used to do hitting balls while sitting in a chair with his back facing diagonally left of the target. When I first started playing, I would often line up with my back to the target with the ball outside my left foot. I'd hit the ball dead straight with absolutely no clue how that happened (I later realized do all that just gave the clubhead more time to close).

Thanks Monte, I agree, all swings are a matter of balance or matchups, ...steeps / shallows, etc. "If the club is in a position where getting open will create a better shot, that's what happens".....so, what club position results in the open body rotation, and what club position results in the square, less rotated body position? We see varying degrees on each tour. This is how we learn from the best, by recognizing the reason they move a particular way, and we can absolutely relate this to our own swings REGARDLESS if the pros swing 20mph faster than us or not (contrary to tthomasgolfer605's argument above). Understanding this will keep a player from trying to add rotation to their swing if it will make them worse.

I’ve seen a high school girl swing at 70 mph and get almost 90* open....at 70* open she was 80 mph.

I have seen a 79 year old man at 90 mph be 60* open and it was pure.

I have also seen Joe Miller swing 150 and be square.

There are general correlations that aren’t always true....but more thrust and sway creates less rotation. More side bend creates more.

Club too open and arms trialing generally lead to less impact rotation. Guys like Jim Furyk not withstanding.

I had forgotten about Joe Miller being square at impact. I guess like lag, the torque created in the downswing is useless unless you use it up, right? (That's probably not the best way to make the point, but I only have a small shovel.)

I couldn't find a great DTL angle but manage to save this one through screen record and slow it down. Interesting swing and perhaps it is distorted due to the camera not being directly behind him, but it looks like he pulls out to the ball with his left arm, this would have the clubface open to the path at p6 and require him to uncock and roll the shaft rapidly at the bottom to square the face, (you can see post impact how much his forearms roll over one another). Does this explain why he is square at impact? He would need to be to allow the clubface to catch up, if he rotated more, he would hit it off the planet to the right wouldn't he? He also extends which may be a compensation for this as well though it is a source of power. Nicklaus was similar wasn't he?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3bkXyR0zPI

Try no.2 (I found a bigger shovel). Unless you use up the lag created in the swing (by straightening the angle between the lead arm and the club), you won't get the speed inherently built up in the lag, right? Similarly, unless you close the gap between the shoulder turn and the hip turn, you won't benefit in the torque created by the differential between those two, am I still right? So, it doesn't matter where you use up both lag and torque, as long as you use them up in time to hit the ball relatively straight. So, if you're club is open, you need to use up lag and torque sooner than if your clubface were shut.

I understand what you're saying and specifically about having the arms synced up with the body. You made a good point about the hips turning too early for the sake of getting more open and how this is a recipe for failure.

The reason I made this topic was primarily to question the Upper Core method because the people I see who stripe it don't look like that. I wish, I wish, I wish that wasn't the case because I look closer to Larry Rinker at impact than I do Jim Furyk. I'd be very curious to see the actual testing done on PGA tour pros or top college golfers to see how the measurements shake out. I just don't believe that 95% of the top golfers in the world are built differently than 85% of us who walk the earth.

To me it's pretty easy to see that, like Monte says, better swings have more rotation even if that is not the end goal. I agree that no one cares how open they are at impact, they only care about hitting the ball solid w/ consistent start lines and curvature.

I believe they are built differently..I don’t have any data but I bet the average waist size is close to 30 inches. The according google the average for a male is 36-38 inches. Those inches matter because their hips can rotate more without being in the way or lead hip being as deep as someone with a bigger waste

Molinari, Shane Lowry, Lee Westwood, Olazabel, Ballesteros

Since Monte has been measured he can tell you what they do, but I think they tests are more geared towards your skeletal makeup and not your physical shape. You can lose weight, add mobility, etc and therefore would change which model you'd fit into. I have not heard Rinker talking about that. I completely agree that touring pros are different from 85% of us in that they're in better shape and more athletic! They're pro athletes! I don't believe their skeletal makeup is different than 85% of the people walking the earth.

I was measured by Chuck Evans at one time for some of the tests that EA Tischler/Mike Adams developed so I'm making an educated guess this is along the same lines. The one test I keep bringing up is comparing your forearm length to your elbow to shoulder joint measurement and it telling you how high your hands should be at the top of your backswing. There have been articles by Adams in Golf Magazine laying some of this out, but if your forearm to wrist dimension is longer than your elbow to shoulder socket dimension your lead arm should be steeper (think two plane) than your tilted shoulder plane at the top. In that regard I think this is in line with Hardy's 1PS/2PS/Plusses and Minuses stuff.

Chuck also had me stand perpendicular to him and throw a punch in his direction. The amount of hip rotation I had in throwing that punch was supposed to tell me if I have slow, medium or fast hips. Think about that one. You could stand flat footed and rotate your upper body to throw the punch and then if you wanted to add power/speed you'd rotate your hips and pivot off your back foot to throw the punch. That says ZERO about whether or not you have fast or slow hips in a golf swing because I don't know a single person doing that test that could not throw the punch in those same ways. To make clear I am not saying the punching test was from Adams/Tischler's BioSwing Dynamics, only that I knew Chuck had either used or modified some tests they have done as part of his own thing. I'm using this experience to add to the conversation about physical testing of people and telling them how they should swing. I'm also not saying anything about Chuck as he helped me out a good deal when I was able to see him in person. I also don't know if I've ever watched a non tour player hit it as well as he does on the range.

Good call on Molinari. I completely forgot about him.

All my adult golf life I've been chasing more lower body rotation. You mean all this time I should have just accepted my hip rotation as just appropriate for my personal swing? And work on something else to gain consistency?