Please help improve a flat swing.

Hi again. I posted a swing a little while ago and I've been working hard since on getting my swing more upright. However, even though I feel as though I'm swinging more upright, video shows that I'm still flatter than a boiled Pepsi.

My suspicion is that my right arm isn't working properly and rather than bending up (like doing a bicep curl) it's pulling back (like starting a lawn-mower). With that said, Monte Scheinblum is probably right when he says that "almost universally" amateur golfers are terrible at diagnosing their swing faults!

I'd really like to get my left arm in line with my shoulders at top of swing but for the life of me just can't seem to get there. Any further suggestions as to how I might get a more upright swing would be most appreciated. Many thanks.

Sorry but Hogans hands were nowhere near where the OP's are, they were not under his right shoulder, they were just above it with a nice vertical right forearm

OP have a look for Jake Hutt golf on instagram he has a really simple tip on what the arms do in the swing, reckon that might help

Hi Superbrit, many thanks for your reply. I'm a big fan of JakeHutt and have binge watched all of his IG feed more than once! I just can't seem to do what he says when faced with hitting a ball. I guess I'm searching for an elusive 'feel' that'll get me to lift the arms more....And to do that I think I need a thought to encourage me to bend right arm properly.

Many thanks for your reply Lane. I must be honest, I can't say that my swing has been compared to Hogan's before! Haha. Superbrit's Hogan picture is useful...Hogan's right elbow has not sucked behind him which makes me think this could be one piece of the puzzle that I'm missing.

Hi Lane, for the avoidance of doubt when I suggested that you compared my Swing to Hogan's, I was of course being facetious.

ha ha ha a skewed angle?? im not sure you could get a better angle, and then you show a pic of hogan about a 1/4 through his transition?

I'll leave you to it

Hi Lane, I really appreciate your contributions very much although I'm just not in the same conceptual place as you are regarding the swing. I think the backswing is very important and whilst I agree that I need to do what you say on DS and at impact, I strongly believe that improving my position at the top will help me get where you say I should be at the end.

I have been struggling with the same thing. I can make perfect rehearsal swings, but when I swing to hit a ball, I swing around and flat rather than in and up. I had a lesson where my pro suggested a feeling of bringing my right hand up to my ear like I was answering a phone during my backswing. This helped me a ton as I had been focusing on my left hand/arm on my backswing. Feeling the right hand position allowed me to change my BS much more easily. I hope you find this useful.

Hi DLiver, I really appreciate the contribution. Just tried this in mirror and position looks great....when I try with a ball at the range later might be a different story.....

Hi Lane, you're misunderstanding me I think. I don't think Hogan's swing is too flat...I think mine is! If I could lift my arms another 2 or 3 inches (a la Hogan) and not get right elbow trapped behind body I think I could execute your DS move with more ease.

It looks like your upper arms are noticeably longer than your forearms, so with your right elbow 'adhered' to your side like that, you're going to have 'flatter than Hogan' swing (as is upper and lower arms were closet to equal than yours). If you want a more upright swing, you're going to have to let that right arm fly (like Nicklaus, or Daly), and you may have to feel like you're severely overdoing it just to get close.

Even if you got your backswing where you want it, the chances of your downswing changing are slim to none. You need to train the right arm and hand to work in the opposite manner on the downswing. Here's a diagram to show the proper entry half way down to impact.

Many of us are tempted to advise folks with too flat (or too upright) backswings to change them to more square. Yet there are very successful players who play with these swing attributes.

You just need to find a golf instructor who understands the swing enough to help you make your swing work; many here will want to change your swing to something more standard.

Lane,

I learned a lot from Bradley Hughes. I have a plus handicap but am not a PGA pro or anything. I give lessons here and there but even people I know don't want to put in the work to learn the correct way to hit from the inside because they're looking for a quick fix. Most people rather spend $500 on the new driver that's coming out thinking it'll perform miracles.

Many thanks for all of your responses. What brought me here is that I'm forever being told that I'll never get to single figures (currently 13) with my right elbow so far behind me and such a flat swing. I then proceed to trying to do something about it, namely getting my right arm to fold more like the textbooks which I imagine will help my arms stay in front of the body (what I see all good players do). For clarity, I am under no illusion that just getting my backswing position more textbook will make me a better player....but I had thought that it was a prerequisite to then making the correct transition, downswing and release. To summarise, are the more learned amongst you here saying that I should instead focus on what I'm doing on downswing and that my current backswing position is in no way preventing me from being able to do make the correct downswing and release?

That is corrrect. You're actually ahead of the game with your current backswing. Once you learn the correct hit from the inside THEN you have backswing options. That diagram above is Gary Player. His right elbow isn't in front of him at all. You can tell much more from an above view than you can face on or down the line. Most teachers look in a 2D view when we live in a 3D world. Regardless of what's spewed on youtube or the golf channel, not ONE great player had the club in front of them on the downswing even though that's a feel they may have. (Thanks Tiger)

Here's Jack Nicklaus. Too upright? Not if you know where to look.

Call me an outlier, but having been where you are, I can tell you it can be extremely difficult to make a good downswing from where you are in the backswing. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it is a pretty big challenge. For me, I find I am much more consistent when I am in a position at the top that allows the clubhead to naturally follow my hands to the ball (just like Tiger's position above). I found that making this change was extremely challenging, requiring me to grind it out of the range to ingrain the correct feel, but it has resulted in an amazing improvement in my ballstriking--particularly my irons.

As an aside, I am once again chagrined that an instructional thread where a member asks for help with a swing becomes a pissing contest between people arguing about swing issues that have very little to do with an OP's original request. (FWIW, I don't think Furyk swings upright like that any more.)

Thanks DLiver, funnily enough I was rereading the Monte Scheinblum No Turn Cast thread from 2013 earlier today and noticed that you had contributed there as well....The no turn drill actually gets me into what I perceive to be a better position at the top but when I don't execute it properly it causes me a few shanks. Like a big baby I then throw out the toys with the bath water and revert to type. I probably just need to be more patient with something and accept that I'll get worse before I get better. Part of my problem is that I play comps every week all year and once I have a card in my hand it's too tempting to swing my way knowing I can shoot high 70s on a good day. Maybe if I'm serious about making a swing change I should stop playing and just do 1000s reps a day at home in front of a mirror for a few months.

Out of curiosity, if I mention Monte Scheinblum enough times will he magically appear like some sort of golf swing Genie?

Yes! It is amazing when it happens

So I went to the range this afternoon with the sole intent of getting my hands higher in backswing. It's ridiculously uncomfortable (no suprise) but I'm curious what you guys think....Is this swing or is my original swing the better?

Well done. Now it's time to get that right hand and arm to behave themselves since they're pushing the club out and over.

Cheers for the Cheers for the Cortical Homunculus reference. To summarise...pay more attention to what I feel my right hand doing and hips shoulders etc will fall into line?

Swing Update: lockdown and not having a card in my hand every weekend has allowed me to commit to uncomfortable changes. My new (and I hope improved!) swing is getting to where I want it to be.

Looks good. One thing to work on would be having your leading edge of the club face match your spine angle. It would be the rotation in the forearms. If that makes any sense.

Thanks for the comment. That makes sense. I've gone a little overboard trying to be less flat by taking the club a bit too far outside on takeaway and trying not to rotate my forearms at all. More hop rotation and a little less outside on takeaway and hopefully I'll be more consistent when I can get back out onto the course!