What do you make of this persimmon collection? Toney Penna WW driver and BJM Jumbo included...

I stumbled across this listing on the Japanese Yahoo! auction site. I will say up front that it is NOT my listing (I wish!), and that I am not going to bid. BUT, I am curious to see what you all think of the six drivers on offer. The seller has not provided great snaps of the clubs, which is one reason I am not bidding. He is also a new seller (only 11 sales at time of writing), but I have seen some of his other listings, and he does seem to be a collector of classic clubs. He does not, however, provide much detail on the clubs, which is another reason why I am not bidding. Anyway, without further ado, here's a link to the listing: 【美品】【希少】ビンテージドライバー６本 - ヤフオク!I see a Toney Penna WW (WW1), but with an insert that I've never seen on other WW photos. The soleplate also puzzles me. Then there's the BJM which looks to my eye correct, but as it's supposed to be basically unhittable, I'm not that interested in owning one. I see a VIP which appears to be deep-faced, but I have no idea how rare that is. It certainly doesn't seem to be a '67 VIP. Then there is the kevlar Cobra driver that I don't think is actually particularly valuable, but I'd quite like to try, just not at that price. The two I know next to nothing about are the medium-brown stained "Emblem" driver with the aluminium face, and the Toney Penna driver with the American Eagle design on the crown. With regard to the latter, I know Charley Penna has posted a pic of a similar looking driver in the past as a highly prized driver, so I'm guessing this one is either extremely rare or some sort of copy/forgery due to the value of the original. I'm not a collector, so I have no idea.

Once again, I'm not looking to bid on these ($1,100+ is too much for me), but I am curious to learn more about these drivers. I'm sorry the photos aren't great, but that's not my fault.

I thought at least these might generate some interest among the Classic Forum readers. And I have to be honest, I would LOVE to try that WW1. OK, and the BJM, but the results would be embarrassing.

By the way, what's the difference between the BJD and BJM shafts? Which is stiffer?

I think the Toney Penna WW1 is an aftermarket job. I bet if you strip the white finish you'll find the original stamping that's been epoxied over. I would stay clear of this wood. Even the WW "stamping" looks suspicious. The 1 looks ok but the WW looks like the engraver had a little shaky hands. Keep in mind these markings were all stamped, not etched. The BJM looks good. Looks like from the early 40s.

I do not have as much of a practiced eye as Robot or Ironmater does but I spotted one thing right off. The Penna driver appears to have over spray on the sole plate where it was not taped off properly. I would bet the farm that is a fake. I have messed with too many Penna drivers over the years and know Penna QC would never have let it leave the factory that way. Robot correct me on this if I am wrong but I also think the WW is a fake because I do not recall them having the "Rocket" sole plate on them.

I was pretty sure the WW1 was a fake or sketchy reconditioning job.

I hadn't noticed the spray paint on the soleplate of the American Eagle Toney Penna driver, but that does look bad. The colour on the sole looks off as well. Charley Penna posted a crown few of a driver like it a few years ago, and as it's safe to say that would be a real one, the one in this listing does not look right. I've included the link to Mr. Penna's below, and you can just about see that the paint around the insert is different. On the real one posted by Mr. Penna, the paint on the crown goes right up to the insert, but on the driver in the listing, there is a gap between the blue and red paint and the insert. At best, it's a bad refinish, and at worst it's an out-and-out forgery.

Oops, forgot to add the link to Charley Penna's post. The driver with the American Eagle is shown in the third picture:#50

That should go directly to his post on the second page of this thread:

The 1954 original stamping would be either WW or WWT with ‘SPECIAL’ below. WW1 is incorrect. Also as mentioned above the insert and sole plate are not correct. Looks like a ‘58 or ‘59 TP1W, and the ‘59 was offered with the Toney Penna signature on the crown, so that’s likely what it is/was.

The Cobra is worthless to most collectors except to rabid John Daly fans, if there are any.

After reading your post, I looked up the TP1W, and I think that's a good call by you. Thank you. I was pretty sure it wasn't a WW, but didn't know what it was. The TP1W is nice looking driver in its own right. I've seen that Kevlar Cobra listed for a few thousand yen before, so I'm certainly not going to splash out many times more than that for the one in the listing, but I am curious to give one a hit. I can't imagine it feels very good, just dead.

I had a set of WW Specials 1-2-3-4, and I can confirm that that one is totally fake. Toe stamp is wrong as others have stated, and the sole plate should be an Eye-o-Matic sole plate, not a Velocitized one.

And this is what puzzled me about the listing in the first place. The WW1 is a fake (even I was suspicious, and I'm not a collector), the Toney Penna bicentennial driver might be original, but it appears to have been retouched badly, and the Cobra isn't even a collectable. The Emblem club I know nothing about, and I'm not sure about the VIP driver (looks to be a deep faced VIP, but can't tell from the pictures alone). The BDM looks right. I just don't understand what the seller is trying to achieve here by listing them all together and sticking a hefty price tag on them all (it's over $1,100).

I've looked at his other stuff, and it all seems to be overpriced. I'was wondering if he is an amateur collector who made some rash purchases, but the fact he doesn't even include a proper description of what he's trying to sell makes me think it's something different. Just don't know what.

I was thinking my Velocitized was a 57--- I have a Driver 2 wood 3 wood and 4 wood. Now the driver does not have the original insert but the others do. I know all of them are pocket rockets. Lately I have been playing the driver and 4 wood in my partial vintage walking rounds

The WW woods would have either a B/W/B or R/W/R insert. They NEVER had keysite inserts in them ..... NEVER. That and the poor etching of the WW made me believe this is a fake. I don't recall ever seeing WW1 on a the set. Either WW or WWT should be the script. If I had my Kaplan MacGregor book I could simply look. Anyone want to post a picture from the 1954 section regarding the WW woods? These were a special order wood, not offered as standard product.

Stu, yes, the WW and WWT woods were made in 1954. These would have the Tourney Eye-O-Matic butterfly sole plate not the velocitized plate.

NFW

Too many flaws ,even in flawed photos

unquestionably altered script

amateur finish attempts

I doubt there is a genuine club in the lot

CHARLEY PENNA

Glad to see you back on here Mr. Penna----- You have been missed

Thanks, Mr. Penna.

It's a really puzzling listing. As you said, due to the obvious fakes, the authenticity of all the clubs comes under suspicion.

Maybe it’s the photo angle but do the stampings on the sole plate of the BJM seem crooked? I’ve never seen a pre-war Armour with the stamp alignments that skewed. Something about that one smells fishy to me.

Just to update this. The same seller has four LFFs up for sale now. I'm no expert, so I don't know if these are genuine or not, but if anyone has around $9,000+ dollars lying around... 【極希少】マクレガー パーシモン JUMBOシリーズ... - ヤフオク!It seems that he's taken that first listing down, and added the BJM to this new listing. My question is this: in the US market, are LFFs really going for $2,000 and more?

And no, I won't be bidding on these.

There is something nagging me in the back of my mind about the sole plate on the LFF. Now I will admit I do not know Mac woods like I know the irons so I may be all the way in left field. If I was into serious collecting like our esteemed friend Robot Doctor I would be wary on who I dealt with on high ticket items. I do know in the 80s the Japanese market went crazy on old stuff. That was what I called the switch over period from blades to CBs and persimmon to metal. Suddenly in the mainstream our classics were considered junk. I know a bud of mine who still has a golf shop got in with someone in Japan and rolled a lot of stuff.I remember one day he bought a pristine set of 67 Bird on the Ball Top Flites. Made one phone call and shipped them that day to Japan. I know for a fact he gave $75 for them and he told me he got $1500 for the set and they paid shipping to Japan. As you know from living there the Japanese people are steeped deep in tradition and appreciate fine craftsmanship. I am thinking some of the younger generation there have inherited Grand Paw's collection from the 80s and do not appreciate it as much and thus selling them. But with that being said they are not stupid either and have done their research and know what some of the collectibles are worth. And the Japanese folks I have been around are honorable people there are scam artists everywhere. Yep before I clunked down that change I would have several experts look and would have to have some type of money back guarantee

Another poster on this site mentioned that he was shipping every LFF he could find to Japan in the Eighties/Nineties where they were selling for $2,000 and more. I think this seller is a collector--or son/daughter of said collector--liquidating the collection, but based off the prices he/she paid back in the Eighties, which was when Japan's economy was booming. I've looked at this seller's other auctions, and most of it is high-value stuff, either golf equipment or ceramics. Based on that earlier listing of questionable authenticity, I'm not touching any of his auctions. I also think they're overpriced, but then again, I buy to play, not collect.

Anyway, I think your idea of someone inheriting Grandpaw's (or Dad's) collection from the Eighties is probably right in this case. The seller sort of knows his stuff, but I don't think is actually a golfer: shaft lengths if listed are in centimetres (the golf shop I buy my stuff from and get club work done uses inches), and shaft flexes are rarely listed. In other words, the seller doesn't seem to know the information necessary for actually playing the clubs.

Yep I am like you I buy to play--- Out of all the clubs I own I have only one that has never been hit and I know the history on it. It was given to me because the previous owner knew I would cherish it which I do. The other club has been hit and I have hit it but considering whose it was and he gave it to me it stays with the un hit Penna driver in the John Daly staff bag in the front bedroom. Also after your last statement I thought of something else on your seller. The Japanese being as meretricious as they are probably the seller's Grand Paw left detailed instructions on what each club was and what he paid for it etc. LOL had a similar situation the other week. A guy I am acquainted with but does not play golf inherited some antique furniture. Someone sent him to me because as He stated "Stu does mess with antique golf clubs" I told him I knew Zilch about antique furniture. But I did steer him towards a repeatable guy that I know that is an antique dealer.

I bet you wonder how in the heck a confirmed redneck like me knows what I know about the Japanese people. That is easy. My lifelong friend his mother ( now deceased) was Japanese. She met his Dad in the 50s and they were married and she came over here, She was very smart and quickly got command of the English language. Very smart woman. She used to tell us stuff and I took interest. I also met some of her relatives who came to visit from time to time and they had somewhat command of the English language. LOL ate real Ramen noodles Japanese home cooked style long before they became popular in the stores and learned the art of marinating steaks in soy sauce and cooking in the oven in a drip pan. She had a sense of humor too. She had a Eureka vacuum cleaner sent over long before they were sold state wide. We asked her what Eureka meant? She told us that is what a Japanese woman screams when she sees a mouse. One night we were watching the movie Tora Tora Tora and it has subtitles. She got to laughing and we were like what? She told us the subtitles were BS and some of what those actors were really saying. Some of it must have been bad because she would not tell us. But yeah that is why I have limited knowledge and a lot of respect for the Japanese people

Stu, thanks for the flattering remark. That said there are others here with more knowledge than I have regarding MacGregors. I have learned quite a bit from a lot of people starting with my old club restoration expert, Mike Coppola from Wilmington, DE who apprenticed under Toney Penna at the Penna Company in the early 70s. I have also gained knowledge from members here (teevons, Charlie Penna, tstephen, rex235, freddiec, persimmonpal, Bella Woods, Texsport, Ironmaster Oddities) just to acknowledge a few.

I think these LFFs and BJMs look legitimate. The 1952/1953 LFF is like mine. (see pics of mine below). That said, the condition of these are good, all appear to be refinished. To ask $9000 for the lot of them is wishing upon a star. Definitely asking most likely what was originally paid which isn't going to happen unless the collector wants these in a real bad way. Either another buyer in Japan will buy these for their collection or the price will come down by 1/2 or more. If these were priced at $3,000 or so for the lot they would be gobbled up. $3,500 is probably pushing the high end for these. But then again, keep in mind these are not as common as a M85W, 693 or 945W so there is the element of scarcity with these.

If I were to sell my LFF as it is today I would probably start north of $750 and would shoot for $1,000 because of the work that was put into it by Dave Wood. I might be able to get $750 for it which would cover what I have in it. That said, my LFF IS NOT for sale and won't be as long as I am breathing.

Essentially the seller in Japan is asking roughly $2,250 per jumbo driver. Which 1952/1953 driver would any of you want in their collection? The one from Japan or mine?

I would also note this is probably my favorite LFF I have seen so far (tstephen's). It is fabulous!!!!

NFW

NFW

the refinish tells the story

in an effort to alter the club, there was a crucial error

CHARLEY PENNA

Thanks for the detailed answer (and lovely pictures). I've really no idea what price collectable clubs fetch, but his asking price seemed way inflated to me. I just didn't realise how inflated until I read your post.

I'd love to hear what that error is.

Charlie could be talking about my LFF. ?

Yikes!

your LFF is fine

CHARLEY PENNA