Bunker rakes and you...

 4x4GGG ·  
4x4GGG4x4GGG Members  71WRX Points: 44Handicap: 15Posts: 71 Bunkers
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In or out of the sand trap?

90% of the courses I've played have called for rakes outside of the bunker. The 10% I've played have stickers on the rake saying "please leave in bunker". I've always been part of that 10% mentality. Through the green should have as little interference as possible. A bunker side rake interferes with the course of play. But in the bunker, you're in a hazard, so chaos is fair game. Personally, wasn't totally behind the idea of rakes. Hazards should be a mess.


I did find this:

golfadvisor.com/articles/a-place-for-rakes

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4884WRX Points: 469Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,884 Titanium Tees
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    I believe this issue has been dealt with in the past quite a few times. The Ruling Bodies have a view of their own on this one (this is from past years but can be found in current Rules as well) which I support completely (unfortunately the course maintenance has decided otherwise on all the courses around here):

    Q. Should rakes be placed in or outside bunkers?

    A. There is not a perfect answer for the position of rakes, but on balance it

    is felt there is less likelihood of an advantage or disadvantage to the player if

    rakes are placed outside bunkers.

    It may be argued that there is more likelihood of a ball being deflected

    into or kept out of a bunker if the rake is placed outside the bunker. It could

    also be argued that if the rake is in the bunker it is most unlikely that the ball

    will be deflected out of the bunker.

    However, in practice, players who leave rakes in bunkers frequently leave

    them at the side which tends to stop a ball rolling into the flat part of the

    bunker, resulting in a much more difficult shot than would otherwise have

    been the case. This is most prevalent at a course where the bunkers are

    small. When the ball comes to rest on or against a rake in the bunker and

    the player must proceed under Rule 24-1, it may not be possible to replace

    the ball on the same spot or find a spot in the bunker which is not nearer the

    hole – see Decision 20-3d/2.

    If rakes are left in the middle of the bunker the only way to position them

    is to throw them into the bunker and this causes damage to the surface.

    Also, if a rake is in the middle of a large bunker it is either not used or the

    player is obliged to rake a large area of the bunker resulting in unnecessary

    delay.

    Therefore, after considering all these aspects, it is recommended that

    rakes should be left outside bunkers in areas where they are least likely to

    affect the movement of the ball.

    Ultimately, it is a matter for the Committee to decide where it wishes

    rakes to be placed.

    Posted:
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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15818WRX Points: 1,099Posts: 15,818 Titanium Tees
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    It used to be merely "best" to leave rakes outside of a bunker. Once you had a ball rest against a rake on the downslope at the rear of a bunker, moved the rake dislodging the ball, and couldn't get the ball to then stay put no closer to the hole than its original position caused a one stroke penalty, you'd clearly see this. It was a completely unfair result IMO (I'm not complying about the consistent rule, just the situational result -- I had no issues with the rule nor did I want a change).

    Now, it's "vital" to leave rakes outside of a bunker, and these completely unfair results have worsened to the extent that I don't like the rule:


    14.2e/1 – Player Must Take Penalty Relief When Spot Where Ball Will Remain at Rest Is Nearer Hole

    When following Rule 14.2e, there is a possibility that the only spot in the same area of the course

    where the ball will stay at rest when placed is nearer the hole.

    In such circumstances, the player must take penalty relief under an allowed Rule.

    The player is not allowed to push the ball into the ground to ensure it stays on a spot (see 8.2b/1).

    For example, a player’s ball comes to rest on the downslope of a bunker

    against a rake and, in removing the rake, the ball moves. The player attempts to replace

    the ball as required, but it does not stay. He or she then follows the procedure of Rule 14.2e with no success and finds that there are no other spots to try in that bunker

    that are not nearer the hole.

    In this case, the player must take unplayable ball relief either by using stroke and distance

    for one penalty stroke (Rule 19.2a) or back-on-the-line relief outside the bunker

    for two penalty strokes (Rule 19.3b).

    Posted:
  • HaleboppHalebopp Members  3087WRX Points: 328Posts: 3,087 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Mar 22, 2020 3:29pm #4

    I have no problems with rakes in bunkers, it makes life easier, the job more enjoyable and saves time for the maintenance staff. I'd certainly prefer them spending the time to actually improve the conditions on the course rather than to do a completely unnecessary and easily avoidable task tens (or hundreds) of times per course.

    I do have a problem with people who can't bother to leave them at the bottom of the bunker so that it can't stop a ball in an awkward lie, never mind force a player to take a penalty drop.

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  • 4x4GGG4x4GGG Members  71WRX Points: 44Handicap: 15Posts: 71 Bunkers
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    I'm not against any of that. I still vote that as long as courses insist on having rakes, they should stay in the bunker. It the penalty occurs, it happens. It is a hazard. It seems as though we're trying to differentiate between a bunker and a hazard. If you wind up in a hazard at rest on a root, stick, branch... etc... penalty is a penalty. But lets revert back to my original line of thinking.. Why are we feeling the need to clean up a hazard after we've played in it. Lose the rakes.

    Posted:
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4884WRX Points: 469Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,884 Titanium Tees
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    The way I see it a bunker is there to make your play more difficult but it is not there to make your play unbearable. For high cappers bunkers are a horror as they are an for good players they create a nuisance by adding strokes on the score. Not raking the bunkers would make playing from a bunker very difficult and in some instances more or less impossible. I doubt anybody would enjoy that not to mention what that would do to pace of play.

    Another aspect is the time of day you are on the course. If and when the staff cares for the bunkers in the morning the first player to play from that bunker may have a huge advantage compared to the last person of the day. That cannot be the idea. Of course, the bunkers could be left unattended altogether but before long that would result in vegetation taking over and that cannot be anybody's goal.

    No, I believe the bunkers need raking in order to make this game enjoyable.

    P.S. The best way to have the rakes on the course is to have a metal pin or stick in the end of the rake and push the rake into the ground standing vertically. If you place it just inside the bunker in this way there is no possibility for it to be in the way of the course staff or the players. The downside is the visual part but we cannot have everything, can we?

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  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers  6820WRX Points: 596Posts: 6,820 Titanium Tees
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    Even though a bunker may be a "hazard", getting penalized because someone left a rake inside the back portion of a bunker doesn't make sense to me. Let me re-word...the penalty makes sense, but leaving the rake inside the bunker doesn't.

    Posted:
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  • Sean2Sean2 Members  32469WRX Points: 2,458Posts: 32,469 Titanium Tees
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    The problem has been solved b/c of the virus...no rakes, period. lol

    Posted:

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  • jholzjholz Members  1722WRX Points: 520Handicap: 7.4Posts: 1,722 Platinum Tees
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    The only argument that I have ever heard for keeping rakes inside the bunkers was to make life easier on the grounds crew. Otherwise, outside the bunker seems to be the generally preferred practice - because of the "influence on play" issues highlighted above.

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  • VindogVindog Don't order the schnitzel. They're using schnauzer! Members  18116WRX Points: 1,051Posts: 18,116 Titanium Tees
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    Out unless I'm told otherwise by proshop or staff.

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  • nitramnitram WestOK, on the South Canadian Riviera Members  5644WRX Points: 370Handicap: -.6Posts: 5,644 Titanium Tees
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    I prefer them on the cart. As rare as that is, I defer to the course management and is usually a question I will ask the starter, if at a new course. If the starter doesn't know and about 1/3 of the time they don't, then look at the bunker and if there's no signage to indicate otherwise, replace it where you find it.

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4884WRX Points: 469Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,884 Titanium Tees
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    'If the starter doesn't know and about 1/3 of the time they don't,...'

    Now THAT is some classy service to a customer!

    • 'Rakes in or out?'
    • 'I don't know, I just start.'
    Posted:
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  • 4x4GGG4x4GGG Members  71WRX Points: 44Handicap: 15Posts: 71 Bunkers
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    I just want to make sure we're all on board with keeping a tool for making hazards less hazardly being left out in the field of normal play?


    (And PS, I am absolutely not taking this seriously, but I do feel that 1st there shouldn't be rakes, and 2nd if they have to exist they should be a part of the hazard. Please dear god let everyone take this opinion as light hearted as I am)

    Posted:
  • antipantip Members  1093WRX Points: 343Posts: 1,093 Platinum Tees
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     but I do feel that 1st there shouldn't be rakes,

    You and a couple of others around the planet support that view. But if you really mean it, make them red penalty areas to keep things really simple.

    Posted:
  • 4x4GGG4x4GGG Members  71WRX Points: 44Handicap: 15Posts: 71 Bunkers
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    Posted:
  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members  4808WRX Points: 689Posts: 4,808 Titanium Tees
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    One of my local courses has stickers on the rakes to keep them in the bunkers. From the looks of things, I'm the only one that follows directions.

    Posted:
  • denkeadenkea Members  442WRX Points: 110Handicap: 10.1Posts: 442 Greens
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    If I'm not mistaken the perennial #1 golf course in the U.S. (Pine Valley) doesn't have rakes for the traps. They say just smooth over footprints with your feet. They groom the bunkers twice a week.

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  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 IowaClubWRX  20846WRX Points: 4,798Posts: 20,846 ClubWRX
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    Out unless course says otherwise. Can’t remember when in the last 300 rounds I played a rake was the cause of a real issue, so happens about as often as I land in a divot scrape.

    Posted:
  • Jack_HJack_H Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers  30796WRX Points: 7,070Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,796 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Mar 25, 2020 2:49pm #19

    no shot at you . But that’s also a False argument. As a former sand pro operator in my youth , what makes it easier for the rough mower made it harder for me. As in you have to get off every bunker and walk around throwing rakes outside. So no. It doesn’t matter. Slows down somebody no matter what.

    id vote no tales at all . Smooth it with your foot

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4884WRX Points: 469Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,884 Titanium Tees
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    It is always a bit dangerous to form a firm opinion based on what one person once said...

    Around here the machine smoothing the sand in bunkers is lower than a lawn-mower and the driver can pick the rakes up as he is doing his driving what he cannot do sitting on a lawn-mower. This is of course only possible with rakes having curved shafts which are the vast majority around here as virtually all courses want to have the rakes inside the bunker as it is faster for the course staff to deal with them in such a way. If it wasn't the rakes would be outside the bunkers.

    Posted:
  • 596596 Lakeland, FLMembers  3790WRX Points: 282Posts: 3,790 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Mar 25, 2020 3:13pm #21

    From a guy that used to mow rough 40 hours a week. Please put them IN the bunker. It saves a lot of time. I didn't care about the Sand Pro guy 😉 ^. It also saves damage to the rakes I could'nt see in the long grass. Remember, I was mowing starting at 5am. Its dark!!

    As a golfer. Put them IN the bunker. Its a "hazard". Outside the bunker is "in play". If you don't want to hit the rake in the bunker, don't hit the ball in the bunker. When you hit a semi good shot that might turn out ok, and then it hits the rake and goes into the bunker or wherever, it sucks! Sometimes, I aim for the bunker......then it hits the rake and stays out.....that sucks, too.

    My vote, as a former golf maintenance guy and as a golfer is to put them IN the bunker.

    Posted:
  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15818WRX Points: 1,099Posts: 15,818 Titanium Tees
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    If we ran things in such a way that simply made it easier for the staff, we’d have six inch rough and worn out holes all over the place.

    Pay the staff a decent wage and have them maintain the best possible playing field. Unless/until the rules change, that means rakes out of bunkers.

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  • Jack_HJack_H Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers  30796WRX Points: 7,070Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,796 Titanium Tees
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    Never saw a rake with a curved shaft.


    ive ran every machine on a golf course. So I’m speaking from actual experience. Most guys who have know that sand raking is pretty low on the totem pole. It’s hot and sucks.

    I graduated to mowing greens in the morning and running the 7 gang rough mower on one course afternoons. So I’ve been on that end too. It’s the same holdup for either. What we usually did was if the sand guy beat the rough guy to a hole . He’d put the rakes inside for the rough mower. After he finished . When the rough guy cut that hole he’d get off and move the rakes back out. So both get off once. But neither have to do it twice. As in moving to work then moving back.

    yes. You might be able to flip out rakes from the trap from the sand pro. But. After the first 10 or so that’s a real strain bending down and twisting that far over 100 times. Don’t believe me ? Sit on a regular chair with no sides. Now bend sideways and pickup something off the floor 100 times then throw it 2-3 yards. Let me know what starts to hurt. Anyone I’ve ever seen got off and just walked around kicking them out.

    same logic goes for tee markers. The guys mowing tee boxes always made sure to move the tee markers inside the box by a couple feet to leave room for the rough mower to cut the tee complex without having to get off.

    my point is/was that inside or out does not make it easier on the staff as a whole.

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4884WRX Points: 469Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,884 Titanium Tees
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    ' Unless/until the rules change, that means rakes out of bunkers.'

    Would you care to explain this a bit further? RoG do not say where the rakes must be, there is only a recommendation, and as we have already seen many things influence on the choice.

    Posted:
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4884WRX Points: 469Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,884 Titanium Tees
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    Posted:
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4884WRX Points: 469Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,884 Titanium Tees
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    'So both get off once. But neither have to do it twice.'

    But the total time used is the same regardless who does it, right? Thus it is not crucial who gets to move the rakes but if it is possible to do it only once in total. As I have explained it is possible around here. The person smoothing the bunker with a machine picks the rakes up and keeps them on until finished and then places them back, and all this without getting off his seat. I can imagine it is faster than someone getting off his machine and doing all this by foot.

    Posted:
  • rogolfrogolf Members  4300WRX Points: 558Posts: 4,300 Titanium Tees
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    This is an endless debate, and to what end, ie, what is being gained in either case? The Rules recommend rakes out of bunkers where they will least interfere with play, just as the Rules recommend other things.

    Please send me all the money that is saved in either case. 😀

    Posted:
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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15818WRX Points: 1,099Posts: 15,818 Titanium Tees
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    See post #3.

    If I were given an opportunity to somehow play penalty-free instead of S&D or a 2sp for a ball against a rake in a bunker that I couldn't legally replace, I wouldn't care much either way. But as things stand, for me this is the overwhelming issue.

    Beyond my frustration about the couple of occasions of getting a ball stuck against a rake in a bunker in a problematic location, I once had a ball tangled in a fabric bunker liner and couldn't get it to stay put legally after taking relief from the IO. After that I formed the CAOIB, Crusaders Against Obstructions In Bunkers, of which I am now Grand Viceroy (though its only member).

    Posted:
  • Jack_HJack_H Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers  30796WRX Points: 7,070Handicap: NONEPosts: 30,796 Titanium Tees
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    Still do not see your point. Nobody is raking bunkers with 2-3 rakes on the machine with them. Period. You cannot carry that much and maneuver around a sand trap at proper speed. Much less work the front blade to push sand where it needs to constantly be moved ( uphill mitigating washes ) .

    and even if you could you are leaving out the last step most trap rakers are required to do. Get off and preform the “ cleanup Lap “ raking up and smoothing the slopes sides of the trap. No machine does this. The sand guy is getting off the machine every trap if he’s doing a proper job. That’s just an unavoidable fact.

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4884WRX Points: 469Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,884 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Mar 25, 2020 4:40pm #30

    'and even if you could you are leaving out the last step most trap rakers are required to do. Get off and preform the “ cleanup Lap “ raking up and smoothing the slopes sides of the trap. No machine does this. The sand guy is getting off the machine every trap if he’s doing a proper job. That’s just an unavoidable fact.'

    True, but not having to get off the machine to pick the rakes up means 50% less work in that area. And that is just another unavoidable fact.

    Well, that is how it is done around here. As soon as the situation returns to normal you might want to expand your view by visiting countries where things are done differently from yours.

    How did you like the rake with a curved shaft? The ultimate reason for using those is to avoid balls being stopped by the shaft. Works pretty well, you should try it 😉

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  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members  4884WRX Points: 469Handicap: 3,8Posts: 4,884 Titanium Tees
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    'After that I formed the CAOIB, Crusaders Against Obstructions In Bunkers, of which I am now Grand Viceroy (though its only member).'

    Just hilarious! 🤣

    Posted:
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