Ball Position and Ball Flight Laws - Driver

All - Just wanted to double check that I have a correct understanding of how my ball position is affecting my ball flight currently with my driver.

As a low handicapper I was realizing that my drives were often times losing me strokes in that I have a naturally straight ball flight, but when I am not on my game it could go either right or left. In addition, I have known for quite a while that I have an extremely high ball flight with driver, but not with my irons. So I figured lately enough is enough and played around with my ball position. What I've found that works for me is as follows:

I play the ball close to the middle of my stance and open my feet just to the left edge of the fairway (I'm right handed). From there I aim my club face towards the left 1/3rd of the fairway and then make a flatter backswing and just let the ball fly.

This produces a low (maybe like 60-70 foot apex) straight ball that 75% of the time tumbles to the right as a fade, and the remaining 25% of the time just hangs out straight or lands in the first cut of the left hand rough.

Do any of you play this as your stock driver shot, or something similar? Am I understanding the ball flight laws correctly? I think because the ball is far back in my stance, it is at the apex of the swing arc and therefore I am probably at a zero'ed out swing path, with a closed face which causes the ball to fall right while starting fairly straight. Is the flatter backswing imperative to be able to achieve this desired ball flight?

Additionally, if I understand correctly based upon new ball flight laws, if i were to want to play a low bullet draw, I would probably take a neutral stance and then open the club face? Would I need to keep the ball back in my stance? Would I need to go back to my more steep back swing?

Thank you all in advance!

Are you left handed? Because if you’re not you’re assumptions are incorrect

I'm right handed - are you saying that in order to hit a fade all things being equal (zero'ed out swing path) that my face needs to be OPEN to target? I thought that was old ball flight laws. Correct me if I am wrong as I'm just trying to oversimplify things.

Face open to path for a fade. If path is straight zero and face is closed towards left ball with start left (where face is pointed) and curve more left

jjmurray there are three vectors involved in understanding ball flight. swing path, face, and target line. You could probably dig up an old Andrew Rice video on YouTube that explains it fairly succinctly. He calls it the royalty of shot shape. I'd highly recommend checking it out! Cheers

For a fade face has to be open to the path, but closed to the target line so the shot starts left (clubface left of target) and drifts back (clubface open to path). Swap them for a draw

It is important to consider that face to path relationships producing a given curve implies centered contact and no gear effect

That's the million dollar question right? That's why I feel as though I've shortened and flattened my driver backswing so that I am able to more easily and repeatably return club to impact. The question for me now, is that if I continue on with this flatter (hands still above shoulders, but just barely, as opposed to parallel with my ear with my steeper backswing) backswing as a method to be able to swing more around my body in a repeatable fashion, is that OK? As long as I don't allow it to become too flat, and I don't come OTT I think it's fine.

Don't get too caught up in backswing positions and thoughts. It is important to get the downswing started on the right footing, which is where that backswing position comes into play, but ultimately what happens as the swing moves towards the target and into impact is the most important function of the swing. Finding the most repeatable impact conditions is priority one.

In your specific situation where you are trying to hit a low fade and eliminate a two way miss as it relates to the Rice video you need to deliver the club at a level or slightly descending blow with a path going left of target (center of fairway) and the face somewhere right of the swing path but left of the target line (center of fairway). Moving the ball back in your stance is effectively making it very hard for you to get the face pointed left of path at impact (which is good). Opening your stance is also effectively moving the ball even further back in your stance and also helps promote a swing path left of your target line so you're definitely on the right track. The golf swing is like a scale, so just remember not to overdo your fixes. That ball position may eventually float so far back in your stance that you can't square your face up and start making compensations subconsciously such as flipping your hands to square the face etc. Good luck!

I think this is where people get confused. For the ball to fade it does NOT have to be closed to the target line. To hit a pull fade the face HAS to be closed to the target line, but open to the path. The face simply has to be open to the path for it to have fade/slice spin. As you can see he originally thought the face had to be closed to fade the ball. People do play straight/ push fades and straight/pull draws. For Righties:

Push Fade: Path inline with target or right of target line, face open to that path.

Straight Fade: Path left of target line, face square to target line (open to path)

Pull Fade: Path left of the target line, face open to that path.

Push Draw: Path right of the target line, face closed to that path.

Straight Draw: Path right of the target, face square to target line (closed to path)

Pull Draw: Path inline with target or closed to target, face closed to that path.

I think someone told me once, the ball starts where your face was and curves the opposite direction of your swing path.

A lot of data suggests that swing path has a greater effect on starting line than face does. The greater the angle between the swing path and club face, the greater the curve, so you can start face outside target line but the results usually won't be nice

You're gonna need to present that data. It's clubface all day long unless you've got more than 85 degrees of loft at address. Then it's path, for sure

What?

No it does not.

sorry guys, I had just woken up when I posted that. I meant face, which supports my argument that starting face outside target line is a very bad idea

If you want the ball to end at the target, the face by default has to be pointed away from it if there is any curve to the ball.

correct. but outside the target line implies the opposite side of the target line as path which was what I was responding to earlier when I misspoke. Inside target line would be same side, outside target line would be opposite side of target as path...

Outside of the target line absolutely does not imply opposite side of the target line as the path, which was not stated in the comment you replied to. If you want the ball to start away from the target and move back towards it, the face must be in between the path and target line. The target line has no impact on which way the ball curves, just where the ball ends up.

The target line in the context used is irrelevant and only causes confusion. To simplify where the ball sets off is pretty much where the face pointed at impact and where it curves tells you the path in relation to that direction. If the op is aiming at the left rough and it goes straight then the path matches the face and obviously if it fades it’s open to his path.

The ball cares not a jot about a target line. His target is in effect the left rough but he knows if he doesn’t match it then an open face is usually the miss. With myself I neutralise my path when I set up and point the face left with longer clubs. I tend to hit it pretty straight more often. I don’t know why this happens but if I set up right with a driver in particular all sorts of nonsense happens. Even setting up square to try and hit it down the middle it’s not as effective. Never worked out why.

The face sends it and the path bends it.

Sorry for failing to outline my nomenclature.

perhaps the target line is irrelevant to the ball because is has no bearing on the ball. but target line is not irrelevant to the golfer...

OP aims his path at left edge, face slightly left, and his target line is middle of fairway and he hits fades. I don't know why he thinks he hits a straight ball as he said 75% of his driver shots are fades. That's a very different set of results that I would take for a straight ball hitter. The main issue I see is that he tees the ball closer to middle of stance, which on the arc the ball will start right more not matter what your intentions. You want to hit a fade then tee it inside your left foot. Look at pro's talking about this. They'll put it back of stance to hit trap draws. Actually that's where my bad habit is, to place the ball further back, and it's pretty hard to hit fades towards target from that position unless you are really coming over the top. Seems to me the traits are one of someone coming over the top, high weak ball flight. (slices are possible though, ahem).

And not sure what that has to do with your original statement, that "starting the face outside the target line is a very bad idea", which is not even remotely true. You will never hit the target (except on a perfectly straight shot) if the face did not point outside the target line. Now if you said the face pointing outside of the path line, that is a different story. That would be a right of right or left of left shot.

Thank you everyone for the feedback. It sounds like my understanding was a bit flawed... the pattern I should be going towards is that feet left, club face between feet path and "target" to the right of the club face. I will continue to play around with the ball position to get what works best for me. I personally really enjoy hitting the low ball as my home course has a lot of blind shots that I know are more easily navigated via keeping it low.

The thing that I'm very curious about is the fact that I feel like it's easier for me to execute this when I flatten my backswing just a bit and swing more around my body than up and down. The club face feels much more stable for me when executing this lower shot. I know everything is good in moderation - I won't overdo it.

just for your piece of mind, what 'starting the face outside the target line' means and why its detrimental: the assumption is that path is inside target line, thus if face is outside target line(aka the opposite side of the target line as path) they you have zero chance of a shot that ends near the target...hope this helps

Well that is not what you said originally. And if the FTP relationship isnt extreme, yes you may not ever hit the target, but it would be a very playable shot and expected miss