MacGregor VIP vs. MacGregor Muirfield vs. MacGregor Muirfield 20th vs. JNP

My knowledge of this venerable line of clubs is limited to only a few models, most notably the Muirfields. I have swung them before, hitting balls when a friend swapped a few of my clubs with a few of his clubs. At the time I had Golden Rams and he had the Muirfields. I couldn't tell much of a difference in feel. I did not like the Muirfields enough to collect them because although they were perfectly solid, I do not like vertical diamonds on the face. I did not think much of them since.

My buddy later on got a second set of Muirfields, the Tour Forged. He showed me that the muscle on the Tour Forged is slightly larger than the 20th, so he concludes that the Tour Forged is the better model, which I also agreed. I suppose that the 20th came after the Tour Forged, so they tweaked the better model just because they wanted to create a new look for a new year. If it is true that the Tour Forged came first, why on earth did they change it?

I am now more curious about the history of the VIP series because I remember Jack Nickalus' last year with MacGregor when he played his JNP's. I remember that Jack left because MacGregor was going retail and he wanted MacGregor to be a pro-line only, and he wanted nothing to do with box sets sold at retailers, so he left and bought out the assets of Toney Penna and started his own company and built his own line of clubs. The next year, MacGregor continued making the JNP's and simply removed Jack's signature stamp and stamped VIP instead. Today, the 1993 VIP sets sell more than the 1992 JNP's.

I started thinking more about the VIP line when I saw a picture of the actual club Jack used at Pebble Beach GL nearly to ace the 71st hole. It is in the Nicklaus Museum now, and if you look at it, the muscle of that 1 iron has a VIP stamped on it. Wait, so this means that in Jack's prime he played VIP irons, and soon the VIP line changed to Muirfields, then Muirfield 20th, and then to JNP, just to later revert back to VIP? In other words, when the Muirfield Tour Forged and the Muirfield 20th lines were sold, the VIP's were gone?

For those of you who are MacGregor fanatics, I must ask: which model irons you consider the best?

Well The VIPS and the Tour Forged Muirfields are the same head with different stamps. Now the 20ths are a little different they have a little more rounded toe. Muirfields can be a strange bird. Some are cast. And it is rumored and I say rumored that the ones stamped "Tour Forged" on the hosel are either Endo Forged or Miura Forged. I have 3 sets of Muirfields 2 of them are "Tour Forged" and the other is not. I do not own any 20th editions. As far as profile I see absolutely no difference between those and the 2 sets of VIPs I own.

Disclaimer---- Just because I said it does not mean it is gospel--- I am just giving you my observations--- And I will stress again that the Endo / Miura thing is merely an urban legend I have not found anyone yet to confirm or deny it. Maybe Robot can ask Clay Long on this

Also on VIPs some are stamped By Macgregor on the back and some are stamped BY Nicklaus on the back

Interesting. Didn't Don White have a hand in those designs?

All the Murifield info you'll need is in this thread right here, including confirmation of the timeline from Clay Long himself.As for VIPs, they first appeared in 1967 (though Jack may have been playing a prototype in late 1966) and he basically used them right through until 1980, which is where Clay Long picks up the story in the thread I linked to.

If you see a VIP with "by MacGregor" stamp on the back, they're a re-issue from the 80s or 90s - not sure which. The original VIPs (the 67s and 68s are the most sought-after models I believe) have "by Nicklaus" stamped on them.

I connected with clay via email and he’s been awesome to quickly respond to my questions.

i just picked these up in the last week....a unique custom shop set.

I’ve hit up a number of MacGregor experts in a few sites and no one has seen one like it. I’ve been gaming muirfield irons this year - both the 20th anniversary set and the standard muirfields.

Those are some reasonable attractive clubs, I would say.

Stu, it's been awhile since I've seen them, but aren't the soles on the Muirfields a bit more rounded and the leading edge a bit less sharp than the 67-68 VIPs (emphasis on "a bit" because I don't remember it being a lot)?

Never before heard the rumor that some Muirfields were cast. I find that one a bit difficult to believe because prior to the introduction of the Muirfields MacGregor introduced a forged MT set and also started a big push of their custom forged irons with a number of their classic back designs and different sole and toe treatments. It seemed they were really trying to move on from the cast VIP blades of the late 70s.

If you reach out to Clay Long again, ask him what he knows about Jack playing the cast VIP blades during the late 1970s. That has been an ongoing debate for years with no real definitive answer.

LOVE those square toes!!

I think it's that some of the Muirfields have Tour Forged stamped on them, and some do not. The ones that do not are forged, per the other sources I've seen. As well as implied in the Clay Long history that's been posted recently.

That's my scientific wildassed guess take on it.

edited to add: took a look at the Maltby Guide. The 83-84 models and 85-86 models are listed separately. May be some slight stamping differences between the two bienniums? Perhaps the Tour Forged is one of those distinctions between 83-84 and 85-86?

Feel free to reach out. He’s very responsive. https://www.rollyourball.com/CONTACT_INFO.htm

I have all of the sets you mention, and I would rank them in the order you listed them.

Both of my sets of VIPs are 80s reproduction and I see no difference between them and regular Muirfields. Now the 20ths have a more rounded toe and the sole seems to be not as sharp

I preferred the 20th anniversary irons over the standard muirfields. Your mentioning of the sole not being as sharp. I just found the anniversary set much easier to hit. I wish my set was in as nice of shape as my muirfields.

I’m likely going to sell my minty muirfields and keep the anniversary set as well as my recently purchased custom MacGregors with photos earlier in this thread. need to thin the herd....as beautiful as they are :(

Ooh! Custom shop! So somewhere in the world there must be a set of Tour Forged without the vertical diamonds.

I am surprised that the 20th is easier than the Tour Forged. I thought it would be the other way around due to the extra muscle.

No diamonds! These sold a few weeks ago..... I should have bought them. I was watching them but then forgot....$51 set if 8 —- Cheap! These have a club logo on them. Not sure where from.

For me, one of the big differences between the Muirfields and the Muirfield 20ths is the PW. With the Muirfields, the leading edge is more rounded and wedge-like, whereas the 20th PW is more like a normal iron.

I've also included a photo of a lineup that includes the 1980 MT Tour Forged 10i, which is also more iron-like than wedge like, and the PW from my VIP set, which I *think* was a 1980s version made for the Japanese market (L→R: MT Tour Forged, VIP, Muirfield 20th, Muirfield). The VIP has a ton of offset in the PW--actually the 8i and 9i have quite a lot too--and I find it unplayable. I weakened the lofts of the other irons, which made the 9i just about playable for me, but the PW is beyond all redemption. The topline also seems thick to me. Do all VIPs have such a chunky look to them?

Edit: In the first picture, the Muirfield 20th is on the left, and the Muirfield PW is, you guessed it, on the right. The more rounded leading edge is clearly visible, I think.

I had two sets of the actual 67-68 VIPs pass through my grubby little fingers through the years. I was pretty sure I could have shaved with the leading edges of those. I never had the same impression with any of the MacGregor irons of the 1980s, although no one could say those irons had significant sole camber or bounce.

The hosels might be just a bit shorter on the 80s models that the ones from the 60s, but I've never been able to make a side by side comparison.

Remakes are a funny thing. Most of them try to be faithful when it comes to back designs and stampings, but other things often change. Wilson issued two different remakes of its 1971 irons during the 80s. The first version from around 1984 was pretty faithful when it came to sole design and width, as those had a wider sole than many of the Staff models. The 84 Tour Blade of the time had a wider sole as well, similar to the 67 Dynapower.

The second version that was available in the late 80s/early 90s had a much narrower sole, even though it looked authentic as to the cosmetics on the back of the club. The Tour Blade Wilson was offering at that time was a narrower soled version as well.

Catchy that offset must be a export thing for the Asian market. The only VIP SW I ever saw with offset was the one Curtis Strange himself gave me. It was one of his personal wedges and it has too much offset for my eye. But then again when I thought I had seen it all someone posts something I have never seen

If I remember correctly the Muirfield sand wedge has a lot of offset on it. My buddy showed me his (I don't remember if it was a 20th or a Tour Forged) and the thought in my mind was to seek a Tour Forged set and buy a non-offset, VIP sand wedge instead. I don't know why the offset sand wedge trend; maybe because Ping started it with their Eye2 sand wedge. I don't like offset sand wedges.

I think so too. Judging by what I've seen on the auction sites here, Macgregor were really popular here in the Eighties, when Japan's economy was booming. I've seen so many Mac Tourney persimmons stamped "Custom" that I am starting to think it was the name for an actual line of clubs. Mac Muirfields, Mac VIPS, Mac Customs....

Certainly, the offset in the short irons and lack of offset in the longer irons was pretty common in JDM clubs from the period, but the amount of offset in the short irons of the VIPs I have is exceptional.

Funnily enough, I recently bought a Wilson Tom Kite 60* wedge from, I would guess, the late Eighties. It too has a far bit of offset, but it doesn't put me off in the same way my VIP PW does. With the lockdown (we're on voluntary lockdown here, and golf is still possible), I should get around to photographing the rest of my VIP set and posting it here. The irons are beautifully soft. If only they didn't have that offset...

Now you are educating me on something else--- A WILSON Tom Kite 60* wedge? Never seen that before all the Tom Kite wedges I have seen were Hogan. Tom Kite is sorta loosely considered the father of the 60* wedge.

As far as lock down due to the virus we are sorta on a lock down. Some businesses are closed as non- essential but golf is open. If you look on one of the web sites that gives golf info ( someone posted the other night) Golf is open in SC but specifically in the Myrtle Beach area it is locals only. All motel reservations are cancelled until further notice. The course groups that have shunned the local residents are really suffering. In fact the largest group that owns 20 courses have closed 8 of them due to lack of play. My new course is doing ok because it is mostly local orientated but alcohol sales are slack due to the fact you can not sit inside or on the patio and consume. Since I just retired I have been playing everyday.

I need to get some pictures of the TK wedge up. Pretty sure it's Wilson.

I'm glad to hear you're able to play golf. I reckon as long as it's close by, golf is about the best past-time right now. Especially if you can walk rather than ride. I played a couple of days before the state of emergency was announced here, and took along a bottle of ethanol to use on the cart's steering wheel and other handles. There were three of us in a cart, walking as much as possible, and we kept our distance from each other.

Only problem was, my left shoulder was frozen, so I couldn't really play. I got my mate to hit my drives (he was smashing it that day), then I'd hit in from the last 130 or yards or so. I actually did OK. Golf is easy when you can blast it 260~70 yards off the tee into the fairway. I should let him hit my drives more often.

Congrats on retiring, Stu

Thanks man it was official April 1 st------ I am still going to drive some a couple of days a week to help out and basically run local---- Right now they are not shipping anything scrap steel prices are so low it will not pay fuel and a driver to ship 90 miles from here and back. I did run one up and back last Thursday and have not been in a truck since. Sorta liking it walking the dog some and 5 holes with my 7 club vintage set up and then riding 18 everyday. Walked 5 Monday and rode 36! I am actually losing weight and my stamina and flexibility has went out the roof.

I admit I'm a little jealous. I'm eligible for early retirement (I'm 56) by virtue of working for gov't and having 35 years in. The pension is still a 40% pay cut, though, and with having bought a house only 13 years ago.... yeah.

Wife switched jobs also, I'm the health insurance provider for both of us, another reason.

And now for a topical comment.... you've got me thinking about pulling out the Muirfields again. You fly the MacGregor flag very well, it's easy to follow the Path. It doesn't hurt that I actually like my set, I think they're pretty well suited to me. The soles being a little wider than my Rams, and they seem to have a bit of bounce to them in the short and mid irons. Even thinking of trying to find a 1 iron to add to the set. Go Big or Go Home, right? LOL

Thank you I try to fly the Mac flag high like Jack did.. Played 30 holes today all vintage minimalist and I might add all Macgregor too. Our fairways have no irrigation so they are hard. I have been playing this course quite a bit and know where I have been hitting my metal driver. My simmon is within 5 yards if not as long. getting a ton of run out. Played pretty decent . shot +4 ( 76) from the gold tees which I normally play. Played the last 9 from the blues at 3385 at sea level. Ended up with a 40. Had one shot or a blast from the past. I had found a Wilson Duo Spin and WTH? I will try it. Got to the 4th hole which is a par 5. I went after the driver and scorched it. Had visions of grandeur thought I might could run the 4 wood up on the green. Hit a nasty toe hook and that ball took off and hook spun like crazy OB. Took double there. After the round I stopped by the car and got my range finder and went back there. I don't carry it playing vintage rounds. I had 270 to that green what was I thinking? dumba$$! Was even par coming to that hole. Somehow managed to par the next because from the back it is a left dogleg and i could not hit it far enough to clear the dog leg. I hit a cut 8 iron over the trees and left a 9 iron in. Made a 20 ft putt for par. Then made bogey the next 2 by hitting my approach shots over the green. But all in all a great day. I just had to challenge myself from the blues

Here's the Tom Kite wedge. I think it must be from 1980 or 81 (not late Eighties as I said before), because he left Wilson's sponsorship for Ben Hogan around that time.

You can see the wide sole which he liked; apparently, the Vokey wedges' K-grind stands for Kite grind. This Wilson wedge might the first version of the K-grind, predating Hogan's. Notice how similar the "TK" font is to the "JP" font of the same era of Wilson wedges?

I got it kind of as a curiosity, and also to throw in with my Wilson FG-J8s (basically FG-17s). Haven't been able to take it out yet, but I've done a bit of chipping in the house and like it so far.

WOW!!! First I have ever seen. Looks just like a JP script and all. Is it me or does it have a lot of offset?? I was watching Masters highlights and sometime in the early 80s saw a clip with Tom Kite and indeed he had on a Wilson visor and bag. I can remember the first 60* I ever saw and it was a K Grind Hogan. So I guess he and Joe Phillips may have collaborated on that. I am a big JP fan and I see the JP design in overall shape and sole of your wedge

Yep, quite a bit of offset. Funny, though, because I don't mind it in this wedge, but I hate it in the VIP PW I posted upthread. I think it's because the leading edge on this wedge doesn't sit as far back from the front edge of the hosel, compared to that on the VIP PW.

Incidentally, the shaft is a Dynamic Gold "wedge" flex, which makes me think its later than 1980. Didn't Dynamic Gold appear in 1981~82? I just did a bit of digging around, and found that Tom Kite left Wilson in 1988: WILSON GOLF PROMOTER RETIRES, BUT IS STILL PITCHING WEDGES(Article is from 1989, and in it, Joe Phillips mentions that Crenshaw and Kite left Wilson the previous year).

Also, I dug out this thread from on GolfWRX: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/340416/wilsons-jp-grind/p1

See post #12 (by eagle9), which includes a pictures of the T.K. wedge.