The technology is getting so much better

From year to year, I would agree that there are subtle differences that are rarely worth an upgrade. But if you've waited 10+ years, those subtle differences add up to be a lot you're missing. Perhaps a rare problem among this group, the average golfer is playing their 3rd cousins hand me downs they found as a 2nd backup set in the garage from 2003.

I'm playing with some ol' arse irons. I think they gave out free bowls of soup when I bought these... and they were fitted for me on a launch monitor.

I took a stock Titleist AP3 demo club out on the course... OMG, WTF, how is this possible? I was hitting 6 Irons 190 yards (depending on slope and wind), when my normal 6 iron is 170. And hitting them back to back on the same shot, it was like the clubs were flat out illegal.

What clubs do you see making the largest technology improvements the last 10 years and the next 10 years? or do you think all categories?

How do you see computer aided designs and machine learning improving the technology in golf clubs?

That’s proof the system works. Golfers see the number on the club and are convinced the new tech is so much better. So sad to see this.

Yeah, the lofts have gotten much stronger which people associate with better technology

#theloftsarestronger

There's been absolutely zero club development in the last few year. Ask everyone here, the lofts are just stronger.

If you haven't been told yet, the lofts are stronger.

For a person who has been posting over 7500 times in the past 10 years, he should know better.

AND YET...................................................................................................................................................................most amateurs are not getting any better

Fair point, the lofts are getting stronger. But not 20 yards stronger. 31 degrees vs 28 degrees can certainly trick many people, but that will be 5-10 yards.

I think it’s also the way they are increasing COR on irons and spreading it across the face, and the high launch / low spin designs of some of these heads from the help of computer driven designs. The new stuff really is longer for a variety of reasons, in addition to the stronger lofts.

On this forum you cannot have a rational discussion about new technology because too many people who say distance does not matter, get butt hurt because some amateur hack thinks he hits his 7 iron further than they do. And that is just ridiculous because that hack is using newer clubs that are pure marketing and no technology.

Nevermind that the "jacked loft" club launches and flies as high or higher than the same corresponding "traditional loft" iron even though it has 4 degrees less static loft. And never mind that it has the same stopping power on all but the firmest of greens. All of that is just a weird cooincidence because irons have not changed at all in the past 20 years.

The reality is that iron design has changed. It is simple physics. If you increase launch and reduce spin, you increase distance. It is funny how almost all of these traditionalists know this to be true with the driver, but refuse to believe the same is true with irons.

Part of that simply isn't true I don't think. The "jacked loft" clubs don't launch as high or higher and they absolutely do not have the same stopping power. My 5-iron is 27*, and it will launch and spin the same, or near enough, as any other 6-iron or even 7-iron of the same loft provided that the CG is roughly similar. You're saying it is "simple physics" but providing no proof of that. How does a "new" iron of less loft launch higher? You can't just say "because the technology is better", there would have to be concrete proof of that. THAT is why rational discussion does not occur, because people that believe the tech stories don't have any evidence other than the story. Yes launching higher and spinner lower produces more distance, but you accomplish that with a driver much differently than with an iron. You aren't cranking the lofts of irons and up and down and manipulating CG with moveable weight. I am putting together a giant post about this that I will reference when it is done if you wish to continue the debate, but there is no science or "physics" that supports the idea that an iron 4* stronger is launching the same (or higher) and spinning as much, because that literally can't happen without a change in delivery.

One thing that IS happening that could easily explain part of the difference is that clubs, and particularly shafts, are getting lighter. Lighter means faster and for a lot of average Joe's, more flipping at the bottom which produces more loft. It wasn't too long ago that the 120-130g shaft was standard and lighter options were much less prevalent. Now there are tons more 105-115g steel options as well as tons more lightweight graphite ones. But that is a completely different set of variables that you can not attribute to head technology.

There‘s been lots of rational discussion about this on here. I think it’s fair to be upset about manufacturers stamping the wrong numbers on the new irons, because they are actively tricking amateurs into thinking they have now a magic wand that gives them pro numbers. That’s just not right.

Technology has come a long way and it’s fantastic. It’s the thinking behind it that pi55es people off.

I played the 718AP3s for a month. Couldn’t stand them and sold. PW is 43*. They didn’t spin much either. The AP3s were designed just for folks who tell their friends they can hit their 9 iron 150 yards. They’re designed for distance and nothing but. Strong lofts plus low spin is a recipe for disaster.

The Ping G400s on the other hand while still strong lofted with PW at 45* hit high and with decent spin to hold greens. In fact these were every bit as playable as AP2s imo.

Yes technology has improved but most of the distance gains the op mentions come from strong lofts.

I’m going to take an unbiased approach to this topic by not reading the prior comments..

I had SEVERELY struggle with my iron game for several years, it was the only part of my game that held me back. I came from the X-forged 18’s (I had for the entirety of my golfing career gamed either blades or players cavity’s) and checked my pride at the door and bought the apex 19 smokes last year...

perhaps it was just a magical combo of head and shafts ( I switched from PX 6.0 to KBS $-taper), but it has 10000000% changed my entire game. I have picked up a full club and a half, while also hitting each iron much much higher than any previous set with no loss in stopping power.

As someone who has fought with the hooks, the subtle offset of the apex 19’s caused absolutely zero hook issues. This set of irons has absolutely transformed my game, and I don’t think it would have been possible a decade ago.

tech has changed my game without a doubt

Wasn’t trolling or trying to start a war over lofts. I was genuinely impressed how far clubs have come with the aid of computer driven designs.

I realize lofts are decreasing to bring down ball flight and increase distance, but the designs also seem to produce more ideal launch conditions to maximize distance as well. It’s certainly not going to lower scores, in most cases, but it’s still interesting.

As computers are used more and more to aid in the designs, I’m interested in the effect that will have on the industry.

Apologies for contributing to the derailment there, thats great that you have had a positive experience! It is important though first consider how "bad" your first irons were (what were they btw?) before heaping too much praise on new tech. The AP3 is a very high MOI iron with a decently low CG, this is going to be a great recipe for a lot of players, especially those coming from old, crappy clubs. But you could find another set of irons, even with Titleist's line, that meet the same specs and would likely perform similarly, so its important to know what REALLY changed. If you had something really unforgiving like an old set of Golden Ram blades or something then yeah, an AP3 is going to feel like cheating, but in not too dissimilar a way that a 14 year old Ping G iron would feel like cheating comparatively.

Regardless though, have fun with that exciting feeling!

CAD has been used to design golf clubs since the early 1990's, once parametric solid modelling was introduced in design software.

So golf club design hasn't just discovered computers in the last few years.

Source: I have an extensive CAD industry background.

I have a small golf shop and have checked newer TM clubs vs older "TM clubs 300 forged". Shafts on new ones are 1/2 longer and lofts are 4 degrees stronger.

Here's an interesting article from Tom Wishon in 2008 about club design: How To Become A Golf Club Designer by Tom WishonAn excerpt:

Competency in one or more Solid Modeling CAD software programs for clubhead designing is essential, with additional competency in Finite Element Analysis or Motion Event Simulation software programs being valuable as well. I won’t go on to list specific programs because there are many in the world today which possess the features necessary to design and model the performance of clubheads. For those who insist, such CAD programs include Solid Works, Pro Engineer, Cattia, Rhino, Cosmos, to name a few. The most commonly used file format in the club design industry is IGES.

This is a great post because it highlights that the more important part about new, improved irons coming out is that there are different irons out. They feel different, sound different, act different. Each golfer is unique. The more stuff is out there the better chance the golfer has of finding something they really like. Consider if there were only two iron sets in the world. Golfers would be worse, because they wouldn't find as good a subconscious fit. For this reason alone new irons are more than marketing - they might fit an eye, or feel great, or whatever.

I've played old irons a while, j40 DPCs (I can't for the life of me figure out how to edit a signature in this horrid new interface). I've tried sets of Rogue Pros, M2s and most recently 0211s. None stayed in the bag. But eventually, one will knock out the DPCs simply because they are coming out with new stuff all the time and I'm bound to like one of them more eventually.

How much more do you think they can get out of irons with machine learning? Callaway has brought this to the forefront with their recent woods designs. I imagine all are doing this and will continue

With the current prevalence of faces that are welded onto iron bodies, probably better optimized face geometry for improved ball speed retention across the face. I picture most amateurs hitting 140-150 yard 7 irons and scoring in the 90's for a long time though...

Yeah, but how do they look?

Truth be told, the techy R&D guys will only get half the call. The other half will be the artsy-fartsy marketing guys. And if there is a tie who do you think will win out?

This topic always draws people like hungry chickens to a group of June Bugs. I've been a Master Fitter for a l-o-n-g time, this latest gig for 17 years. Certainly lofts have gotten stronger, COG locations have gotten lower, farther back and so on. This does help many people BUT I have also done many fittings where people will hit the ball farther with WEAKER lofts and the main reason for this is SPIN. If you look at optimal driver spin rates in relation to ball speed, the lower speed guy (like me!) who only generates driver ball speeds of 130 mph, needs more spin to keep the ball in the air. The same holds true for irons.

I recently sold my Ping i25 irons and acquired a set of Yonex Super Renkin Tours the majority of which average 1-2 degrees weaker per club than the Pings. Through extensive testing last summer I reaffirmed that stronger lofted clubs do not hit the ball any farther for me and in some cases shorter due to lowered spin rates. My son Chris, a fitter at TXG and mentioned in the top echelon of iron fitters by Golfwrx, has often but not always, found the same results with some of his clients.

All this said, I am not remotely suggesting that weaker lofts and higher spin is good for all; quite the contrary. For us older players who have lost speed they can be very beneficial.

Tech is only as good as the marketing.

Still very dependent on the individual

Curious , I see no one claiming as how

it has greatly lowered their handicap

Wouldn't everybody just love the idea of stamping the loft on the irons instead of the iron number? This would pretty much satisfy many people I think, I know it would me.

Not necessarily true...the OEMs spend about one-ninth on R&D of the total amount spent on marketing. That just tells me that tech is pretty much maxed out and it’s now the ‘story’ that is the important part of sales.

I remember when we didn't have to buy gap wedges. When pitching wedges were 50 degrees loft, and sand wedges were 54 - 56 deg.

Sigh.

I remember when iron sets were 3i to PW. Now they're 4i to Pw to Gap wedge.

Much difference? I wonder...

Rgk5, I feel the same.

And I’m waiting for a high tech iron with a 31 degree 6iron. But it will never happen.

How many people in this thread are actually fitters or people who work in the industry in some R&D or engineering fashion? Hands up please so we can weed out the speculation posts vs. the empirical posts.

Fitter here for 16 years and over 2 years at a fitting studio many of you are likely familiar with.