Kevin Na vs WRX

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  • tdelamtdelam Club Junkie Members  3570WRX Points: 166Handicap: 7.2Posts: 3,570 Titanium Tees
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    Posted:
    - Cobra F9
    - PXG 0311T Gen2  & 
    Mizuno MP-20 SEL  
    - Titleist SM5 Wedges
    - Scotty Cameron Teryllium
    - Srixon Z Star

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  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey Members  576WRX Points: 290Posts: 576 Golden Tee
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    Crossfield's video is a far better than average attempt at quantifying this. Certainly better than 99% of what is out there from other YT-ers who hit 5 or 10 shots, not controlling for loft/length/lie, hitting all one club, then hitting all another, and calling that "good". And definitely better than anecdotes on a forum.

    Sure, even more scientific rigor could be applied here, and I would highly encourage Mark Crossfield (or others) to do so, but this was a pretty reasonably executed test. As with any experiment, it's difficult to control for bias, but given that Crossfield has played both CBs, MBs, and I think he's now back on CBs, I don't think he has any particular axe to grind in this department.

    What's funny (or maybe not so funny), is that Crossfield did in 20 minutes what virtually nobody else has really done - publicly. So a more rigorous, more scientific test is certainly within the realm of possibility. I would wager that the club companies do, in fact, have this data in spades. Where is it?

    Posted:
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX  2452WRX Points: 1,434Handicap: +0.9Posts: 2,452 ClubWRX
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    You will never get the data from the OEMs. They don't want you to have it. Valid experimental performance data or even design data is anathema to a marketting driven process. They don't want buying decisions made based on real data. They want to shape your perceptions and desires with rhetoric. They make more money that way.

    Posted:
    Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 8° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
    3W: Callaway Rogue w/Project X Evenflow 5.5 Graphite R-flex
    Hybrids: Callaway Apex 3h, 4h w/MR Kuro Kage 80HY S-flex
    Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/KBS Tour R-flex
    Sand Wedge: Jim Kronus JK-1 Custom Grind 54/06 w/DG S200
    Lob Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM6 58/04 L Grind w/TT Wedge Flex
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Futura X w/Super Stroke Claw 1.0
    Ball: Snell MTB-X in yellow
  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3879WRX Points: 850Handicap: 9Posts: 3,879 Titanium Tees
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    I'm bullish on blades as anyone & I'm surprised by the data. Crossfield is no slouch with his swing. A test with more average swings would be highly interesting and would probably tilt results somewhat. But he confirms what I've pretty much felt about it for 20 years.

    Posted:
  • mtgmtg Members  403WRX Points: 57Posts: 403 Greens
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    seems like Crossfield was onto this a few years ago when he started playing blades after testing EVERYTHING. I mean who has more capacity to pick whatever they want than guys like Crossfield, Shiels, even James Robinson plays blades right (MP-20s maybe)? Shiels (Ping blueprint I think) shot like a 95 or something in an Open qualifier - is he a tour level ball striker? Or is he just too vain and can't understand he should be playing perimeter weighted clubs. I hardly get that vibe from his videos but maybe that's the case. All these guys hit every club on the market and end up in bladed mid, short irons eventually. MC just put some numbers behind what most discerning players have already learned thru experience.

    Posted:

    M1 440 (TI) | Synergy Green Proto 80tx

    M5 3w | Synergy Green Proto 80tx

    Titleist 913 5w | Diamana B 80x

    Srixon Z745 4, 5i | DG120 X100, DG X100

    Srixon Z945 6-p | DG X100

    Vokey SM7/8 50F, 54S, 58S | DG S400

    Odyssey Stroke Lab Double Wide Flow

  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey Members  576WRX Points: 290Posts: 576 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited May 20, 2020 3:10pm #577

    Oh, I completely agree. My question about "where's the data?" was rhetorical. It'd be sorta funny if an enterprising golf company out there did a spoof on the the old Wendy's "Where's the beef?" campaign.

    But it is sad. I work in an industry where if you have good, valid, rigorous data, you can take that to the bank, and the marketing guys will exploit that. Industries where the data is not available says a lot about what that data might or might not include.

    Posted:
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  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX  2452WRX Points: 1,434Handicap: +0.9Posts: 2,452 ClubWRX
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    If I won a big lottery, one thing I might be inclined to do would be to start a boutique irons company where all the design and performance info was disclosed on the website. Let the discerning golfer choose wisely. Maybe run it as a low profit biz because money wouldn't be an issue. Marketting would be solely data based with no BS. Everyone needs a dream...

    Posted:
    Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 8° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
    3W: Callaway Rogue w/Project X Evenflow 5.5 Graphite R-flex
    Hybrids: Callaway Apex 3h, 4h w/MR Kuro Kage 80HY S-flex
    Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/KBS Tour R-flex
    Sand Wedge: Jim Kronus JK-1 Custom Grind 54/06 w/DG S200
    Lob Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM6 58/04 L Grind w/TT Wedge Flex
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Futura X w/Super Stroke Claw 1.0
    Ball: Snell MTB-X in yellow
  • James the Hogan FanJames the Hogan Fan Members  1154WRX Points: 782Handicap: 12Posts: 1,154 Platinum Tees
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    It would be nice if we could go out and find a swing robot, and get the blade and players cb and sgi cb of anyone's choosing, calibrate the robot to swing the club, and then manipulate ball position and club delivery angles to affect strike. Start with a swing that is square square, and then move the ball 3mm toe side, then 3mm heel side, then a swing thats 2 extra degrees in to out. Etc. I would love to see the portfolio of data one could build by simply adjusting those parameters across hundreds if not thousands of shots. With automated tees like some ranges have you could probably preprogram the test protocol and not even have to do anything except change the clubs.

    Until something like that occurs I don't think we will ever be able to make a determination.

    Posted:
    Golfing in Finland!
    Taylormade R15
    W/S Fybrid 3W
    W/S Fybrid 5W
    Hogan Apex 2003 (3-E)
    Mizuno 56
    Maxfli Revolution 60
    Macgregor Jackie Pung Putter #10

  • dubbelbogeydubbelbogey Members  576WRX Points: 290Posts: 576 Golden Tee
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    It is inconceivable to me that the OEMs do not have this very data. They're the ones with the swing robots, access to paid human testers (pros and ams), engineers and data scientists to crunch the numbers. But, as stated above, they're not going to share. We can speculate why they won't share - some explanations might be more nefarious than others - but the lack of data being made public is interesting in and of itself. Like I said, other industries make it standard practice to tout data when it shows that the benefits are there. Even something as simple as a car's 0-60 time. In golf, we get crickets.

    Posted:
  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX  2452WRX Points: 1,434Handicap: +0.9Posts: 2,452 ClubWRX
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    That would be a great project. The hard part is getting the swing robot. Once you have that, you could solicit folks here on GolfWRX for all the clubs. For the donation of shipping, a table gets produced with all the data for any clubs folks submit. The OEMs would go insane once that data got published.

    Posted:
    Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 8° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
    3W: Callaway Rogue w/Project X Evenflow 5.5 Graphite R-flex
    Hybrids: Callaway Apex 3h, 4h w/MR Kuro Kage 80HY S-flex
    Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/KBS Tour R-flex
    Sand Wedge: Jim Kronus JK-1 Custom Grind 54/06 w/DG S200
    Lob Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM6 58/04 L Grind w/TT Wedge Flex
    Putter: Scotty Cameron Futura X w/Super Stroke Claw 1.0
    Ball: Snell MTB-X in yellow
  • James the Hogan FanJames the Hogan Fan Members  1154WRX Points: 782Handicap: 12Posts: 1,154 Platinum Tees
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    I don't think it would last very long. Once the OEMS discovered that these results were being published, they'd lean on WRX to make them go away. Just like with photos of pre-releases, the OEM's do have a bit of leverage I would imagine. But if I ever win a few lotteries, I will definitely look into a swing robot.

    Posted:
    Golfing in Finland!
    Taylormade R15
    W/S Fybrid 3W
    W/S Fybrid 5W
    Hogan Apex 2003 (3-E)
    Mizuno 56
    Maxfli Revolution 60
    Macgregor Jackie Pung Putter #10

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  • Ri_RedneckRi_Redneck Leather for Life!! Members  5877WRX Points: 415Handicap: 8Posts: 5,877 Titanium Tees
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    H E L L F I R E!!!! Thanks to Crossfield, I can go ahead and give these JPX EZ clubs to my son today and go back to my MP5s! Did anyone notice the times when he commented on the FEEL of the shots? I would go out on a limb and say that the Mavrick FELT better on all hits than the Top Flight. Even though the results were worse. Remember, when someone feels like they put a good strike on the ball and the distance isn't right, their confidence wells that they hit it well and the discrepancy is just pawned off as inability of the player to hit it the exact right distance. When in reality, the good strike wasn't really that good, and it's the CLUBS fault the ball didn't land where it should have. I'm in the MB club and I am even surprised by that data!

    BT

    Posted:
    Test Bag
    Mizuno ST190 9.5* - Diamana "Flowerband" Whiteboard 73 S @ 44.5"
    Mizuno ST190 14.5 - Aldila RIP Phenom 80 S @ 43"
    Epic Flash Heavenwood 19* - Aldila RIP Phenom 80 S @ 42"
    Mizuno JPX EZ (grey) 4-pw - Matrix Program F15 S SSx1
    Mizuno MP-T5 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge
    Grips - Master Grip Master Perforated Midsize


  • tdelamtdelam Club Junkie Members  3570WRX Points: 166Handicap: 7.2Posts: 3,570 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 20, 2020 5:09pm #584

    "Scientifically impossible" haha. I guess he failed science class then.

    Agreed regarding the "forgiveness" thing. A mishit is a mishit. I have yet to experience the elusive "short by 30+ yards" on a mishit between a CB and a blade. I've mishit on the toe, high on the face, near the heal, thin, fat, you name it. I have not once noticed a difference between a MB and a CB. Not once have I said or thought to myself "d a m n, wish I had CB's, maybe my ball would have been straighter or 5 yards longer"... it's all nonsense imho.

    Posted:
    - Cobra F9
    - PXG 0311T Gen2  & 
    Mizuno MP-20 SEL  
    - Titleist SM5 Wedges
    - Scotty Cameron Teryllium
    - Srixon Z Star

  • wobgonwobgon Members  7977WRX Points: 769Posts: 7,977 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #585

    Someone should start a thread about Kevin Na.

    Posted:
  • golfpros1golfpros1 Members  7765WRX Points: 256Posts: 7,765 Titanium Tees
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    Posted:
    What's In The Bag:
    Golf Jobs
    Driver: Titleist 915 D2 8.5 w/ Diamana D+ 70 S
    3W: Titleist 915F 15 w/ Diamana D+ 80 S
    3H: Titleist 915H 21 w/ Diamana D+ 90 S
    Irons: 4-GW Taylormade Tour Preferred TP w/ Project X 6.0
    Wedges: Callaway Forged w/ Project X 6.0
    Ball: Titleist ProV1x LD
    Bag: Titleist
  • JStangJStang Members  2857WRX Points: 379Handicap: 7.1Posts: 2,857 Titanium Tees
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    The most eye opening experience that I have encountered was a period of time a few years ago when I was hitting everything out on the toe. I went to Golf Galaxy to test some more friendly, game improvement style clubs. I continued to hit everything I swung off the toe and everything came up 10 yards short. It didn't matter if I was hitting a blade or a game improvement iron, it was coming up well short of the target.


    No club will save poor contact.

    Posted:
    G410 LST Rogue Fairway | 915H 2 | 718 T-MB 3,4 | 716 CB 5-PW | Vokey SM6 52, SM7 58 | Cameron SS 350g
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  • golfpros1golfpros1 Members  7765WRX Points: 256Posts: 7,765 Titanium Tees
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    the increased size of the sweet spot is pretty small. It's like going from a dime to a quarter... the average golfer is missing it on the face way more than that difference in size. So it's true, it's more forgiving but it's all relative.

    Posted:
    What's In The Bag:
    Golf Jobs
    Driver: Titleist 915 D2 8.5 w/ Diamana D+ 70 S
    3W: Titleist 915F 15 w/ Diamana D+ 80 S
    3H: Titleist 915H 21 w/ Diamana D+ 90 S
    Irons: 4-GW Taylormade Tour Preferred TP w/ Project X 6.0
    Wedges: Callaway Forged w/ Project X 6.0
    Ball: Titleist ProV1x LD
    Bag: Titleist
  • dekezdekez Dr. Strangelove Members  435WRX Points: 69Posts: 435 Greens
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    Havent watched the video (lazy, I know). What was his conclusion? Doesn’t seem like he picked a club with much cavity, though.

    Posted:
    Ping G410 Plus driver
    Ping G400, Cobra F6 Baffler woods
    Callaway XR hybrids
    Ping G25 irons 
    Ping Stealth 54/WS and Zing 57 wedges
    Ping Sigma G Craz-E putter
  • braincramp52braincramp52 Freeport, IllinoisMembers  6374WRX Points: 1,651Handicap: 10Posts: 6,374 Titanium Tees
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    Posted:
    Ping G400 driver
    Titleist 917 F2 3 wood
    Ping Anser 20,23,27 Hybrids 
    Wilson Staff MB's 6-PW
    Ping Glide 3.0 50*
    Ping, Glide 54,58ES Wedge
    Scotty Cameron Newport 3

    Snell MTB X


    Just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right
  • Red4282Red4282 Members  877WRX Points: 359Posts: 877 Golden Tee
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    The old blade was more consistent and dispersion was tighter in every category- carry, ball speed, spin, height- on mishits and good strikes. The only area where the cavity “outperformed” was it had a fractionally higher launch angle.

    Posted:
  • dekezdekez Dr. Strangelove Members  435WRX Points: 69Posts: 435 Greens
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    Thanks, Red. I wonder how from an engineering / physics perspective that is so.

    Posted:
    Ping G410 Plus driver
    Ping G400, Cobra F6 Baffler woods
    Callaway XR hybrids
    Ping G25 irons 
    Ping Stealth 54/WS and Zing 57 wedges
    Ping Sigma G Craz-E putter
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  • TigerInTheWoodsTigerInTheWoods Members  2566WRX Points: 1,626Handicap: 5Posts: 2,566 Titanium Tees
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    I agree with these findings in mid irons for sure. I would love to see a blade 3 or 4 iron vs some sort of cavity. I do find that I get more consistent ball speed and launch conditions with a cavity up to around 27 degrees of loft. 6-PW it makes absolutely no difference what iron I play. I'd be interested in seeing a long iron test. They CBs with low CG also take spin off in those long irons so you get better gapping.

    Posted:
  • Red4282Red4282 Members  877WRX Points: 359Posts: 877 Golden Tee
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    My personal opinion is because the sweet spot on modern cavities (some, not all) is much thinner and “hotter”. That is why i think you see such a wide dispersion especially front to back with the cavities. Sweet spot hot, low spin, mishits perform nearly the same as a blade. The blade will be more consistent across the face because it doesnt have such a hot spot. Again, my opinion, id love to know the reasons behind it as well.

    Posted:
  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16674WRX Points: 944Handicap: Low-Mid SDPosts: 16,674 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 21, 2020 8:15pm #595

    That's kind of an odd statement given the small percent of people that plays blades. I don't see my segment as contributing much towards that number. Is your bias showing?

    Though some on this board like to think we're all the same, we're not. At 70yrs old I still track a car at 170mph and still "carry" my 2 iron over 205, often 210+, but there are days and fast fairway that get me out there around 228-232 like last week, and driver 265yds. I B happy. Don't know my SS but I am still shooting to card my age. I was four off the pace the other day.

    @Red4282 - Thanks for that Crossfield vid. Interesting data but not surprised. I like his point, about OEM's tell folks what to say.

    Posted:
    Titleist TS2 9.5, Ventus 5 "S"
    Titleist TS2 16.5*, Ventus 7 "S"
    Titleist 718 T-MB 17* 2i, Steelfiber "S"
    Titleist 620 CB/MB 3i-PW, Steelfiber "S"
    SM6 F-52/8, Steelfiber "S"
    SM6 M-58/8, DG-S200
    SC California Monterey
    ProV1



  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16674WRX Points: 944Handicap: Low-Mid SDPosts: 16,674 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 21, 2020 8:19pm #596

    Yep. If what we read on this board and others is any indication, OEM's are doing a helluva job manipulating heads. lol

    Posted:
    Titleist TS2 9.5, Ventus 5 "S"
    Titleist TS2 16.5*, Ventus 7 "S"
    Titleist 718 T-MB 17* 2i, Steelfiber "S"
    Titleist 620 CB/MB 3i-PW, Steelfiber "S"
    SM6 F-52/8, Steelfiber "S"
    SM6 M-58/8, DG-S200
    SC California Monterey
    ProV1



  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16674WRX Points: 944Handicap: Low-Mid SDPosts: 16,674 Titanium Tees
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    @dekez - I have 620 CBs and 620 MBs, and a combo set in the bag and my swing is grooved. Watching Crossfield, his swing is grooved as well. A grooved swing IMO as opposed to SS is a big part of MB success.

    I agree with the poster above, the sweet spot of CB is thin, (as opposed to MB) plus surrounded by a raised circumference creating more of a spring effect on slightly off-center strikes. Even with Crossfield's consistently grooved swing dispersion was long and short, not so much left or right. Imagine with an swing that is NOT grooved.

    Posted:
    Titleist TS2 9.5, Ventus 5 "S"
    Titleist TS2 16.5*, Ventus 7 "S"
    Titleist 718 T-MB 17* 2i, Steelfiber "S"
    Titleist 620 CB/MB 3i-PW, Steelfiber "S"
    SM6 F-52/8, Steelfiber "S"
    SM6 M-58/8, DG-S200
    SC California Monterey
    ProV1



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  • DeNinnyDeNinny Major Wiener Members  8103WRX Points: 281Posts: 8,103 Titanium Tees
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    In short the reason is because of the difference in mass (less with a cavity club) behind the ball at impact. The flexing face of a "forgiving" iron literally bends more from impact with a round ball than a blade with thicker mass behind the ball. This also causes the ball to literally compress LESS as well. And moreover this bend or flex changes based on the location of impact on that face. What this does is create inconsistent spin on the ball because the compression on it is inconsistent. LMAO with a cavity "forgiving" club, you actually have to be MORE consistent at impact in order to create a consistent spin. With a blade or muscle design, the face flexes much less (and the ball compresses MORE), and it is consistent throughout the length of the entire muscle. End result is that you can hit the ball with any part of the muscle and it will compress and thus spin the ball MORE consistently. LOL and you don't have to be as precise with it as a cavity club. 😂

    By analogy, ever jump on a trampoline? If you jump at the edges of it (trying to stay up and down) you always bounce towards the middle. It's only at the very middle that you bounce straight up and down. The same thing is going on with a cavity club and it gets more exacerbated the more "forgiving" the cavity gets. The ball spin always varies more based on the hit location of a cavity face. A muscle design is more like bouncing a basketball on flat pavement. It bounces back the same way because you are bouncing against a flat and unchanging surface.

    LOL but you'll never get a "forgiving" club designer to openly acknowledge this. 🤣

    Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss in more detail. I can explain the complete physics of golf and why club designs do what they do in full detail. With formulas and down to the molecular level if you so desire. I'm not going to be reading or replying to this thread after this post.

    Posted:
    TEE CB2 13* 3w, 43.5", 57g Fujikura Motore F1 X-flex
    TEE CB2 15* 3w, 43" 65g Fujikura Motore F1 S-flex
    Miura Black Boron 1957 Small Blades 2i-PW, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    Miura Black Wedges 53* and 60*, Nippon NS Pro 850 GH S-flex
    GripMaster Club Maker's Stitchback Grips
    34" Piretti Bosa, GripMaster Pistol Grip

    Registered Bladeocrat
    Outlaw Golf Association Member #7
  • Red4282Red4282 Members  877WRX Points: 359Posts: 877 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited May 21, 2020 8:50pm #599

    Very interesting and makes sense. I think feel is a big part of the perception. mishit a blade and it feels harsh. Therefore people interpret that as less forgiving, when in reality they didn't base their conclusion on what actually happened with the ball.

    i recently hit a very forgiving cavity, and i could feel the mishits but they still felt ok. When i hit it solid, it was almost numb, mushy feeling. Didnt like it at all.

    Posted:
  • clinkinfoclinkinfo Members  773WRX Points: 139Posts: 773 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #600

    100% correct!

    We are the suckers. We are buying marketing nonsense that isn't being proven to work. Notice how all of Rick shields driver reviews the last two years show the same thing? They all still go the same distance, they do NOT even remotely come close to the marketing claims. Irons are no different.

    And no, we are not arguing 2 sides that can't be proven. The truth can easily be proven by any manufacturer with a hitting machine.

    The fact that they WON'T prove it should give us the complete answer, it doesn't match the marketing.

    But again, we are the suckers who keep spending $$

    Posted:
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  • Chuck905Chuck905 Members  1495WRX Points: 287Handicap: 7Posts: 1,495 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited May 22, 2020 2:31am #601

    I get all that Jazz, I have an mechanical engineering and management background.

    What makes me laugh, and it’s open to everybody, let’s assume you find the sweet spot; what are the advantages and disadvantages with CB vs MB?

    Has anybody ever experienced a hole out?

    Posted:
    Epic SZ 11* Tensei White 75
    Epic SZ Strong 3 Wood, 13.5*
    Callaway Apex 18mb (2-PW)
    RTX-4 54* and 60*
    Odyssey RX9 Putter
22

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