Equitable Stroke Control.

 dckmcfkkd ·  
dckmcfkkddckmcfkkd Members  7WRX Points: 40Posts: 7 Bunkers
Joined:  in Rules of Golf and Etiquette #1

Confused by reading all the new rules of the WHS. The readings say that ESC has been done away with. I get that the old variable by handicap has been replaced by net double bogie for all handicaps. One example posted the adjusted score to the score card. So tell me, if one hits 3 in the water on a part 3, a 5 goes on the score card instead of say a 9 and that's the end of it. No actual score in a tournament with a reduction when input into the handicap system. Thanks.

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  • dckmcfkkddckmcfkkd Members  7WRX Points: 40Posts: 7 Bunkers
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    I don't know. Possibly the adjusted score has always been used in tournament play.

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  • KevCarterKevCarter WisconsinClubWRX  12933WRX Points: 480Posts: 12,933 ClubWRX
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    If you make 9, 9 goes on the scorecard. Net double bogey is used to adjust your score for handicap purposes only.

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  • AugsterAugster Members  4677WRX Points: 583Posts: 4,677 Titanium Tees
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    What you shoot has always been what you shoot.

    What you post is adjusted to NDB. It’s really, really simple to do. If you’re under an 18 cap, the most you can post on a hole is a triple bogey and that’s only if you were getting a shot on that hole. Otherwise the most you can post is a double.

    18 cap to 35 cap, you can post triple for any hole. If you make a quad, check to see if you were getting 2 shots there or not. Adjust.

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  • antipantip Members  1171WRX Points: 383Posts: 1,171 Platinum Tees
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    Yes, really, really simple to do, for those of us that think mathematically. My older offspring is utterly confused by numbers if the count goes beyond the digits on one hand.

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  • rogolfrogolf Members  4357WRX Points: 604Posts: 4,357 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 9, 2020 2:52am #6

    The most that you can post, for handicap posting purposes only, is net double bogey. Net double bogey = par + 2 + any handicap strokes you would receive on that specific hole. As others have said, if you make a 12 on a hole in a competition, your score for the competition is 12. If you did not hole out on any hole, or post a score lower than you actually made, you are disqualified.

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  • bhj83bhj83 Kansas CityMembers  872WRX Points: 150Handicap: 1.4Posts: 872 Golden Tee
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    Just use the GHIN app on your phone, enter hole by hole score so that you put in your actual score for each hole and it will automatically adjust the score for any blowup holes.

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  • dckmcfkkddckmcfkkd Members  7WRX Points: 40Posts: 7 Bunkers
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    Ok. Well some posters have clearly not read the new WHS rules. To protect the guilty, I will not name them.

    I read more.

    From WHS.com

    ""When the format of play allows, players are encouraged to pick up at their maximum hole score to keep up a good pace. For competitions, the adjustment is applied after the round. This means that the score posted for the competition and the score submitted for handicap purposes could be different ""

    So as others have said, your score is what you take on a hole minus what ever handicap strokes you get and the max score is input for the ghin system.


    So no, the ghin system does not automatically reduce the score. Only total scores are input, ghin wouldn't know each hole score to do the ESC.

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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15879WRX Points: 1,157Posts: 15,879 Titanium Tees
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    You seem to have missed bhj’s direction that you should choose to enter hole by hole scores to get his predicted result.

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  • klebs01klebs01 Members  544WRX Points: 193Handicap: 3.2Posts: 544 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited May 9, 2020 7:41pm #10

    Post hole by hole and the app adjusts for net double. Picking up for max handicap score is fine for casual rounds, at max score per format in some tournaments or not allowed in others, match play when conceded and most likely score is entered (capped at max). Really just depends on what Type of round you are playing. Use the app and don’t worry. Pick up at triple if under 18 cap in a casual round.

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  • KevCarterKevCarter WisconsinClubWRX  12933WRX Points: 480Posts: 12,933 ClubWRX
    Joined:  edited May 10, 2020 6:52pm #11

    As one of the "guilty," good catch. It will be interesting to see how widespread the adoption of 21.2 as a tournament format will be.

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  • Nels55Nels55 Members  333WRX Points: 154Handicap: 9Posts: 333 Greens
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    Quote: So no, the ghin system does not automatically reduce the score. Only total scores are input, ghin wouldn't know each hole score to do the ESC.

    Actually it does! One of the things I like about the new system is the ability to post hole by hole scores with advanced stats:

    Stats:

    This system seems to be available for all of the courses that I play but maybe it is not available everywhere?

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  • davep043davep043 Members  5034WRX Points: 2,242Handicap: 6.3Posts: 5,034 Titanium Tees
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    @Nels55 says:

    "This system seems to be available for all of the courses that I play but maybe it is not available everywhere?"

    I agree, I like that if you use hole-by-hole entry, scores are automatically corrected for the Net Double Bogey limitation. However, the data entry for Handicap Stroke Index is the responsibility of State and Regional Golf Associations, who in turn had to rely on individual golf clubs to provide accurate information. I know that early in the year the data entry was incomplete, so for many courses hole-by-hole entry wasn't available. I'm not sure if all the data is in the system now, there certainly could be courses where only "total score posting" is available.

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    Home is Reston, Virgina, with regular visits to Southern Pines, NC

  • NolesNoles Members  1632WRX Points: 247Posts: 1,632 Platinum Tees
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    Is there an "X" option for all the holes I don't finish! LOL

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  • ItsjustagameItsjustagame Members  1389WRX Points: 213Handicap: 8Posts: 1,389 Platinum Tees
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    Any time a player starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke, they must record for handicap purposes their most likely score.


    Most likely score is a judgment that the player must make based on their own game. It consists of the number of strokes already taken, plus the number of strokes needed to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. Your playing partner cannot help you to come up with this number! You must assess each situation in which you do not finish the hole based on what you can reasonably expect to score. (Section 4-1, USGA Handicap System Manual 2016-2017).

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  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Quitting WRX may be in my future... Members  5840WRX Points: 1,153Posts: 5,840 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 17, 2020 2:37pm #16

    Yeah I know I sound like a broken record to some of you but the elimination of ESC is going to be a problem. Yes the new method is easy, but only if you determine your HC strokes by hole. For those of us NOT playing match play, which I believe is most especially in non-competitive rounds, its extra work.


    Example our league uses the Chicago points system so HC strokes per hole are irrelevant. But now we need to know where strokes fall in order to accurately post. With ESC a guy just had to remember any blow up holes exceeding ESC and post the adjusted score. All this could be done easily in their head. The new method requires more info and logistics to post accurately. Call it lazy, sloppiness or whatever you want but too many are going to do it wrong.


    Sure OK we can post hole by hole and let the system do the math but now we need to keep our own score card instead of one per group. Now especially with covid, guys aren't handling the same card.

    Also to post hole by hole requires a bit more time and concentration to post 18 numbers instead of 2. So now I see guys (myself included) posting at home instead of immediately after finishing. I've forgotten to post and then remember a day or two later. I'm gonna guess some guys may forget all together or use this as an excuse to not post a particular score.


    The new ESC method will prove to be an ongoing problem.

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  • CaseyCCaseyC Members  243WRX Points: 117Posts: 243 Fairways
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    You do not need to keep your own score card. After the round, simply take a photo of the group card. Our group has been doing that for years.

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  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Quitting WRX may be in my future... Members  5840WRX Points: 1,153Posts: 5,840 Titanium Tees
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    I have also done the same, but I categorize that as keeping your own card. Regardless it will represent a change in workflow and additional work. Either will need to transcribe scores to paper so you can read them to key into the phone app or use a second device to login and key scores while reading them from the phone.

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  • rogolfrogolf Members  4357WRX Points: 604Posts: 4,357 Titanium Tees
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    You've already diagnosed the problem as personal:

    Call it lazy, sloppiness or whatever.

    Just solve it.

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  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Quitting WRX may be in my future... Members  5840WRX Points: 1,153Posts: 5,840 Titanium Tees
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    No it's not just personal! I'm only sharing an example of my experience and what I'm already seeing. If you fail to recognize that this is likely to be a ubiquitous issue then you're failing to recognize that there is a reality beyond your pristine vision.

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  • rogolfrogolf Members  4357WRX Points: 604Posts: 4,357 Titanium Tees
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    Who said that it was being done correctly before January 1, 2020? Personal laziness and sloppiness was just as prevalent then too.

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  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Quitting WRX may be in my future... Members  5840WRX Points: 1,153Posts: 5,840 Titanium Tees
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    No one said it was being done perfectly before 2020. I know it wasn't. But this only new method only makes it worse. The reason why esc came about was because previous method was very error prone.


    As I said before failing to recognize the issues as I outlined (which is far from a complete list) is failing to face reality.

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  • rogolfrogolf Members  4357WRX Points: 604Posts: 4,357 Titanium Tees
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    Or at least your view of "reality". My view of reality is different than yours - all the people that I play with find the replacement for ESC, net double bogey, much easier to understand, remember and apply.

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  • CaseyCCaseyC Members  243WRX Points: 117Posts: 243 Fairways
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    How will you handle the changes required due to coronavirus? That too will represent a change in workflow and additional work.

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  • AugsterAugster Members  4677WRX Points: 583Posts: 4,677 Titanium Tees
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    I had a friend I rarely play with say this yesterday to me, “I love the new NDB limit. It’s so easy to do and makes way more sense than a high capper being able to take a 7 or 8 on a par 3.”

    I agreed and was internally thinking of this thread. So that’s at least one vote from a non-rules guy that that thinks NDB is easier and more equitable.

    I still don’t get the confusion. After the round just ask yourself, “Did I make a triple bogey or worse”. If no, post your score. If yes, check to see if you get a stroke (or strokes) on that, or those, hole(s).

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  • davep043davep043 Members  5034WRX Points: 2,242Handicap: 6.3Posts: 5,034 Titanium Tees
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    This is 100% correct, ESC was done as a simplification of the previous method of limiting unusually high hole scores. But we didn't have the tools in the early 1980s for score entry that we have now. If you look back at some of the threads here about the WHS, you'll find a lot of folks who were absolutely opposed to hole by hole score entry, it couldn't work, it would be way too much work, it was impossible. Some of those same people have weighted in saying that hole by hole is actually working really well, and is pretty simple. There's no doubt to me that "net double" is a little more complicated than "7" or whatever. But its not rocket science, and its easily taken care of with h-b-h score entry. I can add that with my circle of golfing friends, there's little to no confusion about what score to post.

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    Home is Reston, Virgina, with regular visits to Southern Pines, NC

  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15879WRX Points: 1,157Posts: 15,879 Titanium Tees
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    I vote that all who have trouble working out NDB have compulsory hole-by-hole posting demanded by their Handicap Chair.

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  • CaseyCCaseyC Members  243WRX Points: 117Posts: 243 Fairways
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    I think hole-by-hole posting should be demanded by every Handicap Chair.

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  • BlackDiamondPar5BlackDiamondPar5 Quitting WRX may be in my future... Members  5840WRX Points: 1,153Posts: 5,840 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 18, 2020 1:21pm #29

    Dave, thanks for being objective in your response. Yes we have better tools than the 1980's but to leverage them we need to post HBH. HBH can be problematic for the reasons I previously listed. As for golfers that manually correct for NDB and only post a total, if they aren't playing match play then that's where the errors occur. My adamant concern probably goes back to my early career days and the application of poka-yoke principles, if your not familiar, is basically a philosophy of design and process simplification in order to prevent errors. NDB done manually takes us in the wrong direction.


    On a positive about HBH posting, people have more stats about their games and courses will have more data when it comes time to re-rate.

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  • SawgrassSawgrass Members  15879WRX Points: 1,157Posts: 15,879 Titanium Tees
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    I'm busy trying to work up the energy to have extra sympathy for the arithmetic burden we place on our plusses.

    (Apparently the old 96% Bonus for Excellence has been replaced by the new mathematical Burden for Excellence.)

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