Davis Love III - Persimmon

I am reading Davis Love III 1997 book "Every Shot I Take" and wanted to share this section "More Pleasing With Wood" for those who may not have read it.

It sums up how most of us feel about persimmon in that he expresses his preference for persimmon over metal and concludes that persimmon is more pleasing and controllable to hit. It is interesting to note he predicted a persimmon "come back" which I think is now happening.

1997 was of course very late for persimmon on tour but also just when metals began to balloon in size grotesquely.

Davis talks earlier about swinging at 80% of power. My view is the forgiveness of the modern frying pan allows players to go at the ball with 100% and it is this which has given the extra distance which ultimately won the battle of metal over wood on tour and our courses.

It marks a sad turning point in our beautiful game. I would love to see the persimmon comeback gain momentum.

Well, I agree with him when he says golf with wooden drivers is more satisfying. When I want to score/compete, I take my modern woods. When I want to enjoy a round of golf, I take my persimmons. I may not hit them as well all the time, but I enjoy the ones I hit well more.

Tiger’s first win on tour in Las Vegas against Davis who was using a 7 degree Cleveland RC85 persimmon driver. Davis used to just hammer that driver. New rule on tour should be any course under 7200 yards automatically becomes a persimmon only tournament.

It would be fun to see today's players play a tournament with balata balls and real wood woods. I bet the players would actually enjoy it and it would be interesting to see who would adapt the best. I would watch that tournament for sure!

Sometimes you get paired up with three other guys and after a few holes they already know you are the best golfer even though you are playing persimmon woods and musclebacks, and they have the new equipment. As your fundamentals get better, the more often this happens.

I once suggested this as a game we should play ourselves.https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1367178/anyone-ever-play-in-a-persimmon-woods-and-blades-only-tournament/p1

Golf's governing bodies had the opportunity in the 80's to preserve the game, but balked. A simple stance on both size, materials, and construction could have made the game very different than it is today. At the very least, a ruling for wood heads only could work like baseball. MLB plays wood only, could have been that way for PGA. Mailbox on a stick drivers and forgiving hybrid woods replacing everything longer than a 6-iron? Ugh.

A missed opportunity which has had serious ramifications for the game and the environment. The only winners are the manufacturers with their annual "technology" advances aka bigger heads, stronger lofts and longer shafts enabled by the greater margin of error in finding the club face.

I personally don't find watching 350 + yard drives more thrilling than the shaped and controlled persimmon drives of yesteryear - quite to opposite. I miss the finness of the purer game.

Sad too that courses laid out 100 years or more ago by the great architects of the game have to be unpicked and extended to remain relevant.

Extending courses and building new ones to accommodate the new norm in distances does completely unnecessary environmental damage. Surely better to preserve the courses where any environmental impact happened years ago? That can only be done by regulating the balls and equipment used. As far as I can tell every other sport has kept its fields or pitches within the same dimensions they have always been - why does golf have to be different?

Davis reckoned that in 1997 only he and Justin Leonard gamed persimmon. A sad turning point in the history of our game.

Can you imagine the uproar in Chicaco if they decided to allow a two piece titanium bat with injection molded foam, then had to reconstruct the field so the 360ft center field wall could move out to 395ft?

Davis was a big hitter which, I am guessing, is why he was able to be one of the last to forsake persimmon. At some point (around 1997?) his natural distance advantage would have been eroded away forcing a switch to metal to regain competitive advantage.

This is a pity as he clearly preferred the "pleasure" of persimmon. I can't help wondering if other pro's of the era shared that sentiment?

If there had been a vote at the time, manufacturers affiliation and commercial interests excepted, would the pro's have voted to keep the level playing field, tradition and joy that is persimmon?

Instead we sadly lost control at that time. Pity.

Switching doesn't appear to have changed his distance all that much, going from the Driving Distance stat. In 96, he was at 285.7, in 97 he finished at 285.8. In 98 and 99, it dropped a few yards from that.

Well, I guess that I feel pretty much the opposite of a lot of folks in this discussion as I love my forgiving titanium and graphite and would not go back to dead feeling wood and steel for anything. This is even though I grew up playing wood headed drivers and I built and refurbished a number of wood headed clubs both persimmon and maple. My interest is in hitting good shots and shooting low scores (for me) and the more forgiving the club (and the ball) the better!

I just looked at the stats from 1992-2002. Davis didn’t seem to gain anything with metal at that time except maybe a straighter ball flight. Losing the ability to shape shots though I think is not a good thing too.

I had to laugh watching the skins game yesterday. It seemed Dustin only hit a couple of solid drives during the round. I would think if he was playing persimmon his focus would be much more on solid strikes. Also, Ricky is a persimmon fan and I bet he’d love a re-match same guys same course with firmer conditions in a couple of months with persimmon only. Also, steel shaft forged blades no graphite super rocket 2 irons.

MOI is the great equalizer. I think it's MOI that has brought everyone closer together at the Tour level.

Barring some outside impetus that changes requirements, we'll likely never know.

That is interesting. Davis basically said that (at the time of writing -1997) metal was gaining him a few yards in distance but not enough to offset the shot shaping, control and pleasure of persimmon. However he had gone to metal for his fairway woods by that time.

Sounds like any distance difference he was referring to was indeed very marginal.

I think the ball technology has been a huge contributor too.

It would be cool if a skins game was played with steel shafted persimmon and forged blades. I’m good with them using the modern ball. I don’t think TaylorMade would be the sponsor though.

Modern balls and drivers made the game easier for club players. And therefore more enjoyable for many, including myself who was a poor driver of the ball until larger size heads and lightweight shafts became available.

Modern drivers also equalized that part of the game at the elite level.

I think it went too far, the driver's of the very early 2000s would have been a good place to stop. The Callaway model and Titleist 983k TaylorMade 300 series etc.

The effect of the ball is overrated. If you look at the change in driving distance from 1999 to either 2001 or 2002, the average distance change for players who were in both seasons is about five and a half yards. There was another spike a couple years later that coincided with increased driver size and the advent of launch monitors.

I am watching the match on dvr right now and would love to see this format done with more creativity. Possibly incorporating old equipment would capture lots of attention. Side note I wish the announcers would shut up so we can hear the players mics.

If I'm not mistaken Davis was the last guy on tour to quit playing persimmon

I am a strange one in that nowadays I hit very small headed & heavy woods/drivers much much better than inflated titanium heads and super light graphite shafts. I use 115gr steel in my irons too. It's hilarious on league night when I pound a 200cc steel driver 260+ and the opponent's say "man, you'd be scary with a more modern club". Then I pull out a 460cc driver with 55gr shaft and duff one into the ditch or hosel shot it sideways. It's damb frustrating, but it is what it is at this point.

Very possibly. In his 1997 book Davis indicated that he and Justin Leonard were the last persimmon men left standing. Not sure which of the two holds the distinction and proud honour of being the very last.

I've always preferred heavier shafts in my driver. Maybe you just need to find a heavier shaft, possibly even steel, for your modern drivers, and keep them a little shorter. It could be club length on top of the weight (which is also one of my "things")