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Do you throw or twist?

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GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing LesseeMembers  1959WRX Points: 276Handicap: 5Posts: 1,959 Platinum Tees
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I am curious how many people throw versus twist.


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  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members  1959WRX Points: 276Handicap: 5Posts: 1,959 Platinum Tees
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  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 IowaClubWRX  21726WRX Points: 5,718Posts: 21,726 ClubWRX
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    For me, thinking about that would be this. 😉


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  • trileriantrilerian Members  651WRX Points: 157Handicap: 13.1Posts: 651 Golden Tee
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    This is a good video. I like it. I am trying to be a twister and release from the top.

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  • alfridayalfriday Members  546WRX Points: 152Posts: 546 Golden Tee
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    Interesting. Watching this video, I realized that I have moved from a twist to more of a throw over the last couple of years. It is not something I have thought about, and I’m not going to spend any time worrying about it going forward.


    The change for me occurred because I did the club throwing drill—where I actually throw clubs to a target. See Fred Shoemaker, Extraordinary Golf. I found out I was losing a lot of power because I had gotten away from how I naturally move, into a more upright stance. By adopting a more athletic stance that matches my body, I am lower to the ground and turn much more fully. The change in release pattern occurred without thinking about it. Frankly, it would drive me crazy to start thinking about the minutiae of whether my wrist action is a twist or throw, instead of just swinging to the target.

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  • Soloman1Soloman1 Members  2947WRX Points: 972Posts: 2,947 Titanium Tees
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    Both of them sound like painful wrists to me.

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  • juststevejuststeve Members  5326WRX Points: 637Posts: 5,326 Titanium Tees
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    Toe up to toe so I guess that is twist.

    Steve

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  • moehoganmoehogan Members  1136WRX Points: 185Posts: 1,136 Platinum Tees
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    Neither ... my pivot doesn't stall.

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  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers  16991WRX Points: 1,080Handicap: 4-5Posts: 16,991 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 19, 2020 6:14pm #9

    I use both throw and twist release in wedge shots, depends on distance and what I am trying to accomplish. Also, I am self-taught so never had names for certain techniques.

    Last weekend I had about a 35yd baby pitch shot from 15' right front off the apron to a slightly uphill surface and back left pin on a raised platform. I wanted the ball to hit short of the slope base release and roll up the slope gradually falling left towards the pin. That was accomplished using PW, ball slightly back in my stance, weight on left side and an underhanded throw release. My grip is a reverse overlap making my right lower hand strong, so I treat ball like I am throwing it with lower right hand underhanded at my target landing spot. I works beautifully.

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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers  9521WRX Points: 3,152Posts: 9,521 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 19, 2020 6:33pm #10

    Cogorna has a lot of solid material, this one really misses the mark. Most elite ball strikers don't do either of these patterns (at least the way he demonstrates it)

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited May 19, 2020 7:29pm #11

    Regardless of whatever release method is used the golf club must move robustly from one side of the wrists to the other side. You do not want to drag the handle or block the release and you do not want to scoop flip or to add loft. Your release method should be based on a lot of parameters; like percentage of strikes on the sweet-spot, producing maximum compression, ball trajectory, ball flight, shot-making ability, etc., but for most amateurs it boils down which release method is easiest to learn and feels the best, and produces the least number of misses. Your choices range from a release that is simply passive or natural (e.g. Sam Snead) where the weight and momentum of the golf club creates the release, all the way to a release that is forcefully manipulative and intentional (e.g. Arnold Palmer) where significant muscular effort (torque) is what causes the release - swivel, twirl, pivot, throw, twist.

    There's more than one way to swing a golf club. That's why most everybody's golf swing is like a fingerprint and recognizable from 400 yards away. It's just that some people learn to release the golf club in a favorable way, while others don't. And that is usually because our golf swings reflect what we believe, and that's where our incorrect concepts get us into trouble.

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    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • Ghost of SneadGhost of Snead Members  2932WRX Points: 321Posts: 2,932 Titanium Tees
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    I think Kevin's intent (as a disciple of Jim Hardy) was to explain the throw/twist release in what Hardy would call RIT/LOP and give it to Cogorno without using those terms. If you agree with Hardy's throw, lots of premier ball strikers in that category including Rory, Snead, Kuchar, Stenson and more.

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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers  9521WRX Points: 3,152Posts: 9,521 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited May 19, 2020 11:06pm #13

    Perhaps that is the case, but the way he explained it and demonstrated, it looks nothing like any touring pro, even those you mentioned. Most pros aren't having the left wrist go into that much extension that early, instead they are fully unhinging the wrists while supinating with the lead arm. He said a bunch of questionable things as well, like the twisting action results in more curve and that a fade is hit with an open face/draw hit with a closed face.

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  • PJ1120PJ1120 Members  781WRX Points: 120Posts: 781 Golden Tee
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    The throw motion he describes is somewhat similar to what Malaska teaches isn't it.

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  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members  1959WRX Points: 276Handicap: 5Posts: 1,959 Platinum Tees
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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited May 22, 2020 11:39pm #16

    If you are questioning your wrist action or release method into and through the impact zone it's probably a good idea to experiment a little. Amateur golfers whose method it is to try to roll their wrists and twist the clubshaft to square up the clubface are oftentimes not very successful using this method. The method comes with a high degree of manipulation and torque coming from the golfer's non-dominant side, their dominant side, or from both sides...usually with very little consistency or player satisfaction. They frequently find this method makes them extend early (lose the lead arm/clubshaft angle) and their timing of the necessary roll/twist is near impossible to get right with any consistency. Those golfers really should give the 'throw' method a try, where the golfer doesn't need to overly use their non-dominant side to square the clubface and instead use their dominant right side to play a more prominent role in delivering the clubhead through impact.

    What golfers have been told about keeping the lead wrist flat can be carried too far - causing weak swing speed, open clubface, blocking, handle dragging, chicken-winging, etc. The need to get the clubshaft from one side of your wrists to the other side of your wrists robustly is extremely important. Allowing the right hand/wrist to collapse (breakdown) their left wrist going through impact to 'get it out of the way' so the left wrist doesn't impede the swing can play a huge advantage with increased clubhead speed and not needing to purposely twist the clubshaft to square the clubface. If you are a golfer that is unsuccessful in getting your left wrist to properly roll, swivel, pivot or twirl then you're probably better off learning a throwing type motion and having that pesky left wrist collapse on purpose so it doesn't disarrange good alignments and botch your release.

    As the teaching pro (Kevin Roman) correctly states in the video, either method is perfectly acceptable. However, if you are new to the game and just learning to swing a golf club, your chances are probably better if you test your skills using the throw method instead of trying to roll/twist (a.k.a. swivel, pivot, twirl) the wrists. The key is finding the correct method for you personally! In almost every case one of these two methods is exceptionally better than the other method for a given golfer. So, the question is - are you employing the best wrist action and release method for you?

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    Post edited by Nail_It on

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • CAT GOLFERCAT GOLFER Members  1087WRX Points: 174Posts: 1,087 Platinum Tees
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    I find that he caters mostly to the membership/clinic crowd with his material, it is largely derivative of what is mostly out there already. Don’t take my comment as a slight, he tends to focus more on the bigger picture concepts and describe them to his target audience. I enjoy his videos, helps me focus on the bigger concept ideas as opposed to getting stuck on details.

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    Here is Laird Small demonstrating what he calls an active slap hinge hand release action through impact. (I personally think the image they used for the magazine was purposely overly exaggerated.) Laird Small's power release suggestion was published in the 2008 edition of Golf Magazine's soft-cover publication "The Best Golf Instruction Guide Ever", which includes golf tips from the 100 top golf instructional teachers. Other golf instructors (like Brian Manzella, Richard Franklin and Michael Jacobs) also teach a deliberate left wrist extension action through impact...so it's not like it's something new or bizarre. I think most tour players have adopted this method of wrist action in their golf swings, with the exception being some of the older players on the Champions tour.


    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • DumpedunderDumpedunder Members  53WRX Points: 31Posts: 53 Bunkers
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    With all due respect, this is very wrong involving the lead wrist.

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  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members  1959WRX Points: 276Handicap: 5Posts: 1,959 Platinum Tees
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    That picture is probably only exaggerated in that it does not combine the arm/hands/wrists movement with a full and correct pivot. If his body would have moved correctly through impact his wrists and arms would look much more "normal".

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    Yeah, I agree. Still pictures that are staged in an attempt to show a particular 'position' are usually either lacking something or purposely exaggerated.

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited May 25, 2020 10:37pm #23

    Maybe you misunderstood what I said or meant involving the lead wrist:

    I said; What golfers have been told about keeping the lead wrist flat can be carried too far - causing weak swing speed, open clubface, blocking, handle dragging, chicken-winging, etc. The need to get the clubshaft from one side of your wrists to the other side of your wrists robustly is extremely important. Allowing the right hand/wrist to collapse (breakdown) their left wrist going through impact to 'get it out of the way' so the left wrist doesn't impede the swing can play a huge advantage with increased clubhead speed and not needing to purposely twist the clubshaft to square the clubface. If you are a golfer that is unsuccessful in getting your left wrist to properly roll, swivel, pivot or twirl then you're probably better off learning a throwing type motion and having that pesky left wrist collapse on purpose so it doesn't disarrange good alignments and botch your release.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Allow me to define and hopefully better describe what I mean when I say "collapse (breakdown) the left (lead) wrist going through impact..."

    There is a fine line or a very subtle difference when talking about the moment of impact - that hit, that exact moment-in-time when the good player wants maximum clubhead speed to occur. The time point of when impact occurs is often referred to as 'at impact' or 'through impact'. Nevertheless, impact occurs in an extremely brief period of time. The wrist action at or through impact is a matter of timing or what some people may refer to as hand/eye coordination or instinctive athletic body locomotion - not to be confused with the timing (rhythm/tempo) of the full swing. This post-impact wrist action timing happens to be a very important element of the golf swing, especially so for producing clubhead speed. Though not as much for golfers that rely on super strong rotary body pivot speed. The wrist action I am describing results in a neutral or flat lead wrist at the moment of ball contact (a.k.a. impact) and is then 'allowed' to act as a free-wheeling unrestricted flexible joint from that point onward. (For those golfers that lose their balance or never finish with their golf club level behind their head and can pose for the camera - that is likely because your left arm and wrist remains firm after impact.)

    I am not suggesting that the lead wrist collapses or breaks down prior to impact, however if the golfer's intention (as it should be) is to time his clubhead for maximum speed at impact then the golf club must pass robustly from one one of his wrists to the other side of his wrists...and that cannot be done if the golfer is purposely maintaining a flat left wrist after impact. The golfer needs to understand that there is a fine line or very subtle difference in timing the clubhead for maximum speed versus when the lead wrist breaks down a twinkling too soon. That is just part of learning to swing a golf club skillfully. The goal is to time the maximum clubhead speed so precisely that the lead wrist breakdown is right on the ragged-edge or 10/10 in race car driving terminology. In other words the golfer might 'feel' that his left wrist is right on the verge of collapsing a nanosecond too soon. The more experience he has, the more precise his feels becomes, and the better he gets at timing his clubhead for maximum speed at impact. It's much like learning to throw a baseball where you time the release of the ball from your fingertips.

    What many golfers end up trying to do is intentionally retain their flat left wrist well beyond the point of impact. Oftentimes golfers are so accustomed to maintaining their flat left wrist that they make no attempt to actually 'time' their clubhead for maximum speed at impact. You could say they make no real effort at timing for maximum clubhead speed because it's not even in their realm of thinking when they swing a golf club - they put far greater importance in maintaining a flat left wrist than they do in timing the clubhead. Instead, they just pull the golf club through the ball with a firmly positioned flat or arched left wrist and no real intention or initiative to make the clubhead reach max speed when it makes contact with the golf ball...and no conceptual awareness that the clubshaft should be made to get from one side of the wrists to the other side of the wrists as quickly as possible.

    All I am suggesting is that - if you think your golf swing might be impeded by the common tendency nowadays to maintain a flat left wrist beyond the point of impact you might want to re-think what you are doing and move toward the opposite direction.

    Here's a golf swing that displays perfect clubhead timing with no post impact left wrist restriction whatsoever:


    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • DumpedunderDumpedunder Members  53WRX Points: 31Posts: 53 Bunkers
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    Ahhh, in a post impact situation. That makes more sense. I see lots of players having to be re-educated out of cupping the left wrist from the top.

    Good impact positions laser through that flexion/supination cycle, working through extension in the follow through. I totally agree that trying to maintain anything is fallacy.

    Depending on grip strength, a little added flexion either at the top or through the downswing (exaggeration during practice) can be helpful to square the face.

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
    Joined:  edited May 26, 2020 5:40pm #26

    Excellent comments...

    The problem is, most amateur golfers typically lack having a good body pivot, and they also are unable to achieve sufficient supination. It is common in amateurs to see a weak effort with only some degree of supination but it peters-out near impact - and that can actually cause the golfer to give up or stall his body pivot. I think sometimes it's a matter of the golfer being too weak in their lead arm to do it (supination), and sometimes I think it's a matter of them not understanding that the flat left wrist needs to rotate fully with the forearm into the follow-through, and sometimes I think it's a matter of them hitting 'at' the ball and thinking they don't need to continue supination post impact, all of which kills the pivot. Those are the golfers that would likely be better served relaxing their shoulders and adopting very passive arms/wrists and having the golf club's weight and momentum help generate the arm/wrist action for them - kinda like the Matzie Assist golf training club actually makes (forces) the golfer accomplish the proper forearm and wrist action. There's nothing wrong with swinging that way (passively) as many LPGA players and elite junior players do it that way. However, if you really want to be able to hit all the shots, and have a penetrating ball trajectory with good shaft leaning alignments and get maximum compression you do need to learn to supinate the lead forearm and wrist fully and boost up the body pivot, with the latter very likely coming about quite naturally with better arm extension in the follow-through. Strengthening the lead arm's forearm muscles by supinating under load (weight or heavy club) will often pay big dividends if good supination is currently lacking.

    I like your swing thought of fully supinating to have the clubface laying on the plane in the follow-through. Also, I agree that supination at a slower rate goes hand-in-hand with a good body pivot, and the former usually bolsters the latter.

    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

  • PJ1120PJ1120 Members  781WRX Points: 120Posts: 781 Golden Tee
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    I get it. What is the right arm doing during the period from P6 to P8?

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  • vwoodyvwoody Members  40WRX Points: 83Posts: 40 Bunkers
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    Man you hit on a lot of good stuff in here. The parts that really resonates with me is the supination past impact (hence my swing thought) and passive arm/wrists. I find that personally when I concentrate on a lighter grip pressure the whole thing falls into place. The club wants to turn over so let it. What makes supination "difficult" is when we have a death grip on the club which is something I've always battled. They have to "muscle out" the supination vs letting the club do it's thing.

    I guarantee if people who are struggling give this a try it won't feel like a manipulation after a while and the body pivot will improve dramatically. At least that's what has happened for me. My brain has been freed of all the micro movements of the golf swing and now I can take this concept out to the course and just play golf. No small feat for a serial tinkerer like me.

    Anyways, great post...going to read a couple more times. You managed to put into words what I've felt and discovered these last few months.


    Cheers!

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  • MPStratMPStrat Members  1159WRX Points: 165Posts: 1,159 Platinum Tees
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    I feel exactly what both of you described. Soft hands, wrists and forearms and an immediate and gradual supination of the lead arm from the top. I rarely miss the middle of the face anymore... maybe 1 out of 10 iron shots and when I do it’s fairly minimal. I don’t feel like I’m holding the club like a bird soft, it’s more like I’m not trying to control it with my forearm muscles. It’s like letting go and in turn not allowing the energy and forces to be compromised. That’s my feel.

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  • vwoodyvwoody Members  40WRX Points: 83Posts: 40 Bunkers
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    Exactly how I feel it as well. Well said. Only took me 30 yrs.

    I think the gradual supination is key here. When I tried this in the past it was a quick, hard and forced move through impact preceded by the "pull down staff steepening" move in the name of "more lag".

    They key is to feel the supination starting early. What helps me immensely is practice swinging standing upright (imagine hitting off a tee that is about waist high or slightly above). Take the club back and pronate till the face is pointing at the sky, swing through(supinate) until the face is point at the ground on the other side. Do it slowly over and over. The important part is the motion, not the speed. Monte has an excellent video on this as well. Now once you get the hang of this, do the exact same thing only bent over in your golf posture...you will get a new found appreciation of the positions of the club through out the swing. Quite often I will swing standing upright, hold a position, then get into a bent over position and see where the club is positioned. Quite eye opening especially the back swing position for me personally. Monte does an excellent job in his video explaining how swing standing upright can expose and help correct many of the swing flaws we golfers struggle with every day.

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  • Nail_ItNail_It Members  160WRX Points: 128Posts: 160 Fairways
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    That's an excellent question, and one that in my opinion definitely does not have a clear-cut or one definitive answer. Like many aspects of the golf swing, I think it depends on how you swing the golf club, and there are many ways to get the job done.

    I'm sure you've heard it said that the right arm adds support for the arm/chest triangular structure and 'the right hand should only go along for the ride', yet Ben Hogan said that he wished he had three right hands, but I think Hogan was left-handed but played right-handed. Johnny Miller, Jordan Spieth, Sergio Garcia, and Phil Mickelson also play with their non-dominant hand. Some excellent golfers look like they're barely holding onto the club with the right hand with some (e.g. Vijay Singh and Fred Couples) practically letting their fingers and palm come off the grip at or immediately after impact, which means their right arm was used more for supporting their arm/chest structure than to add speed. Then, you have others that purposely extend their folded right arm to help add speed by way of only their right hand ring and middle fingers connection with the grip with their forefinger and thumb purposely off the grip. Phil Mickelson is right-handed but plays as a lefty but really uses his left (trail) arm and hand through impact. And, then there are those that keep the right hand fully on the club's grip and use the first knuckle of their right hand forefinger to punish the ball. But then we have Martin Chuck telling us not to squish a grape placed between the right forefinger and grip when swinging. And, don't forget about the Pure Ball Striker that clips to the grip at your right forefinger knuckle. Ah, the many different ways! Some swing, and some hit. Some golfers use the right side (arm/hand) very differently than other golfers. Some are very right-side dominant and some are very left-side dominant. Some people are able to play equally well from either side (e.g. Shawn Clements). Some people make it look very natural swinging with one arm - only their lead arm or only their trail arm - or only their dominant arm or only their non-dominant arm. So, to answer your question - in my opinion there is no one answer.

    I think the answer is very individualized, and is probably best determined by how the golfer is better able to generate the highest clubhead speed...and then adopt swing protocols that tend to go along with, support and strengthen that particular way of swinging a golf club.


    Posted:

    Politicians and Diapers must be changed often for the exact same reason...

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